Enlarge the central midfilders is possible? (in diamond)

[SuperXavi]

Hy,
someone know how realize this moviment to the central midfilders

1) when the ball is in possession of the back wingers, the central midfilders should enlarge like in the screens

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2) then in offensive fase should be in that position and stay here stationary, no reach the end line and no come in area


in "widen of playing" (i don't know how is written this instruction in english in the game) there is three possibility: "insert in the space", "cut toward the center" and "stay in lateral zone"

setting "stay in lateral zone" doesn't work because seems that this instruction works only whit lateral players

( 3) then in defensive fase should came back in initial position and for that there is no problem)


sorry for the english

let me know if you have some ideas

 

[Mugatu]

I think the only way to move your Midfielder like that would be to use move into channels, however i dont think you can fully achieve what you want as its impossible to my knowledge to dictate where you want your players on a offensive and defensive phase. Maybe try setting up formation in third SS then use run from deep rarely so they drop in to mc during defensive phase.

 

[SuperXavi]

thanks
yes i mean "move into channels", but it doesn't work for players that play in central position

i don't understand what means "setting up formation in third SS"?

SI shoud improve the game....

 

[TheBetterHalf]

Why not let them roam and tell them to huge touchline. If one could tell the players to spread really wide, I am not sure that it would be à good as you would loose the midfield battle, the opponent being able to hit you on the counter.

 

[SuperXavi]

i'm not sure to have understand
but in the central zone there is already the three attackers and the central trequarter, say to the central midfilders to huge touchline is useless
it was different if they can huge touchline in the channels, but for me is useless too because is better if they stay just out of the box and let space to the three attackers (in fact also the trequarter should stay just out of the box)

whit roam, you mean set "Freedom of movement" on "Yes"? i'd try and it didn't work

whit spread really wide, you mean to set the in "squad instruction" the bar of wide-thigt to the maximum wide, it didn't work too

maybe i'll try again

unfortunaly the instruction "run towards" (the arrows in classical style) products only straight run, at least so i'd see

let me know if you have other idea or maybe if you realize that
bye

 

[TheBetterHalf]

i'm not sure to have understand

No, i dont think so

but in the central zone there is already the three attackers and the central trequarter,

Pioint being?

say to the central midfilders to huge touchline is useless
it was different if they can huge touchline in the channels, but for me is useless too because is better if they stay just out of the box and let space to the three attackers (in fact also the trequarter should stay just out of the box)

So you don't want the Mcs to use the width of the pitch when having the ball even if this doesn't have a direct effect on there positioning on the field without the ball ? And even if it was possible to stay wide in those channels WITHOUT the ball, you no longer want that ? You lost me there

whit roam, you mean set "Freedom of movement" on "Yes"? i'd try and it didn't work
whit spread really wide, you mean to set the in "squad instruction" the bar of wide-thigt to the maximum wide, it didn't work too

I mean that even if there where a wide play instruction called " spread wide when in possession", it would probably make you tactic heavily unstable

unfortunaly the instruction "run towards" (the arrows in classical style) products only straight run, at least so i'd see

Not reallly true, the runs from deep are forward runs to pass his opponent WITHOUT the ball. They can be into channels etc and combined with a free role, they will look for free space where its found

 

[SuperXavi]

Point being?

i dont' understand what you mean
i was saying that the Mc must not enter in the box

So you don't want the Mcs to use the width of the pitch when having the ball even if this doesn't have a direct effect on there positioning on the field without the ball ? And even if it was possible to stay wide in those channels WITHOUT the ball, you no longer want that ? You lost me there

i want that the MCs stay on the channels always when they have the ball and when other players have the ball and always out of the box, on the midfilders line when the defensive players have the ball, just out of the box in other case
then they come back in the start position when the other team have the ball to defense

"don't want ....use the width of the pitch when having the ball even if this doesn't have a direct effect on there positioning on the field without the ball"

i don't understand
what is width of the pitch? can you do me a screen so i can see what is the italian relative
and this have or not have an effect on the position?

I mean that even if there where a wide play instruction called " spread wide when in possession", it would probably make you tactic heavily unstable

the unstable maybe (only maybe) can fix after, FM is too easy i'm boring doing classic scheme, that i use so many times and for so many years and then i want realize a working 3-4-3 and for the neglicence of the SI we can only realize that in strange way because there is a lot of problem whit the 3-4-3, in particular in the costruction of the action

where is " spread wide when in possession"? works? make the Mcs stay on channels?
can you do a screen so i can see what is? maybe in italian it's not translate well (there's different thing that aren't translate exactly)

Not reallly true, the runs from deep are forward runs to pass his opponent WITHOUT the ball. They can be into channels etc and combined with a free role, they will look for free space where its found

yes i mean this but there is a big drawback about this instruction
first of all is not possible set when do this, because is possibile only set on "rare", "sometimes" and "often" that is not the same of say when (for when i mean, run when an other player/zone of the field have a ball), and is also not possibile say where the player must arrive
(but this drawnback is general and referred to other tactics and role)

then also whit the free role, there's always the trend to run straight sometimes
and look for free space is not good, they must go to the channels, and no in the centre if it's free

(obviously if FM should permit "compensation movement" and to create schemes of action, will be good if Mc go to the box but an attackers should make him the space, and now if you set this is basicly for ever etc etc)

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I am sorry, but we seem to be lost in translation and I cant help you further, sorry.

 

[SuperXavi]

ok
but if you realize MCs doing what i've shown in the screens pass me the tactic and the i chamge for my pleasure
bye

 

[SuperXavi]

i change the language in FM (i didn't think it before) and so i see that in effect i made confusion on many terms

channels is not the flanks like i thinked, so where i written channels i mean flanks

hug touchline is what i need (i thinked that touchline was the line of the end of the field, byline like is called in the game)
but i've try in the past setting hug touchline, roam from position on yes and width of team instrucion on wide and it didn't work enought

i can't find " spread wide when in possession", where is? this is player instrucions in english


How should you set the MC?
i repeat for clarify
like in the first screen on first post, he must reach the touchline in the midfield line when the defensive players have the ball (in particular when wing back has the ball)
then i must always stay in the touchline zone but a little bit forward just out of the box
so he must not go to the centre of the field in attack and he must not enter in the box

in defense, he must be like the normal Mc, obviously consider that he need time to come bakc in the initial position but it's another problem

 

[Zagallo]

SuperXavi, I've done that tactic before as Ajax under Cruyff , and the only way to achieve what you want (not 100% but maybe the best solution) is to have the Right and Left center Mid under player instructions, in wide play to move into channels or hug touchline, roam from position, and never run from deep. With this settings, watch full games and see where do you want the Right and Left Center Mid to stay while you are in attack and experiment with the players mentality to see exactly the position you want the players to take.
From what I've seen so far from your posts, I would say you should start experimenting with a mentality of 14.
take care

 

[SuperXavi]

thanks
yes this is exactly what i've made months ago
i try again
maybe put down the central trequarter, maybe have three midfilders enlarge a little bit more the MCl and MCr

i wanted to know if someone was able to do it at 100% but i suspected that none can't do it

there is the same problem with the Central Defenders in a three defense, because in reality when a 3-defense start the action whit ball on their feet the lateral Central Defenders should became Full Backs, basicly this is the problem whit 3-4-3 or 3-5-2, because this is not possible and so the lateral midfilders came to back to take the ball and the team is so too long

maybe you have some ideas for that too?
in this way the scheme should be more realistic but a 3-4-3 regular is not usefull for a game "ball on the ground"

maybe you can say to the Si to emprove the tactic sistem finally? and to not develop part of the game that aren't the core of the game!?

 

[Zagallo]

Unfortunately for us, the match engine still dragging it's prehistoric infancy behind it. SI knows they need to improve tactic system, they have the tools to do it (and they had them for a few years now)but whether they are willing to do it and make the FM a more realistic experience is another argument. The 3 CB position could have been implemented a decade ago and still here we are debating how to solve this problem, you see...
Regarding the tactic, trust me, you will have to work very hard to make it work at least 50%. Don't give up, in the process you will discover a few interesting things regarding the 3-4-3.

PS. If you want to PM the tactic, I can have a look and give you some feedback.

 

[Mike.]

Unfortunately for us, the match engine still dragging it's prehistoric infancy behind it. SI knows they need to improve tactic system, they have the tools to do it (and they had them for a few years now)but whether they are willing to do it and make the FM a more realistic experience is another argument. The 3 CB position could have been implemented a decade ago and still here we are debating how to solve this problem, you see...
Regarding the tactic, trust me, you will have to work very hard to make it work at least 50%. Don't give up, in the process you will discover a few interesting things regarding the 3-4-3.

You know they are already redesigning the match engine? That work started last year. And it couldnt have been done a decade ago, thats the issue.

 

[Zagallo]

You know they are already redesigning the match engine? That work started last year. And it couldnt have been done a decade ago, thats the issue.

Mike, in the year 1998 (France World Cup) a friend of mine who use to work in the CM series, told me in Paris after I pestered him regarding the back 3 CB's, that the positional spot for Left and Right CB in a back 3 in between FB and CB could and should have been created back then, but that was not the priority at that time. I remember another Football manager game of the 90's(forgot the name now), who had the CB's position in between FB and CB's in the tactical screen.
So yes, they could have solved this problem ages ago.
Personally, I think is more to do with people's mentality in SI decision makers; the majority of them grew up watching and believing in 4-4-2 as the mother of all tactics.
This is still noticeable in the media today; just listen to those jokers in Saturday Soccer Special and english tv football pundits.
Every now and then, there's an idea put forward in the press that the back 3 is dead because it can't cope with this or that. After the 1995 Ajax generation and the Germany team of Matthias Sammer and Matthaus as Libero ended, the critics thought that was it.
5 out of the 32 teams in the World Cup in 2002 that were playing back 3, 4 played the semi finals (Germany, Brazil, South Korea and Turkey) suddenly the back 3 was alive again (for some). Any sign of it in FM series back then? No, people keep thinking is going to go away, so there's no point in including a dying breed.
Now with Chile, Universidad de Chile, Barcelona, Udinese, Napoli, Juve winning Serie A invincible, Wigan and even Man City this season playing back 3 let's hope there's serious consideration to sort this out.
Take care

 

[Mike.]

Mike, in the year 1998 (France World Cup) a friend of mine who use to work in the CM series, told me in Paris after I pestered him regarding the back 3 CB's, that the positional spot for Left and Right CB in a back 3 in between FB and CB could and should have been created back then, but that was not the priority at that time. I remember another Football manager game of the 90's(forgot the name now), who had the CB's position in between FB and CB's in the tactical screen.
So yes, they could have solved this problem ages ago.
Personally, I think is more to do with people's mentality in SI decision makers; the majority of them grew up watching and believing in 4-4-2 as the mother of all tactics.
This is still noticeable in the media today; just listen to those jokers in Saturday Soccer Special and english tv football pundits.
Every now and then, there's an idea put forward in the press that the back 3 is dead because it can't cope with this or that. After the 1995 Ajax generation and the Germany team of Matthias Sammer and Matthaus as Libero ended, the critics thought that was it.
5 out of the 32 teams in the World Cup in 2002 that were playing back 3, 4 played the semi finals (Germany, Brazil, South Korea and Turkey) suddenly the back 3 was alive again (for some). Any sign of it in FM series back then? No, people keep thinking is going to go away, so there's no point in including a dying breed.
Now with Chile, Universidad de Chile, Barcelona, Udinese, Napoli, Juve winning Serie A invincible, Wigan and even Man City this season playing back 3 let's hope there's serious consideration to sort this out.
Take care

Ov Collyer has talked about the 3 Cb's, among other things and the various difficulties with it.

If you read what wwfan talks about, then there is no way you can compare him to soccer saturday pundits. Just because another game had it there doesnt mean in any way that they could have done it.

Thats a huge generalisation to say that most of then grew up believing that. 3 centre backs never died. You cant say the press, because there is a massive differentiation between the likes of soccer saturday, and someone like Jonathan wilson for example. As far as FM is concerned its been an issue since 2007 its not as simple as making 3 centre backs work, there are knock on effects right across the match engine as a whole.

 

[SuperXavi]

i made the tactic and the result isn't so bad
whit big team you can win score a lot but also risk sometimes
whit a team like twente in the leauge there is no problem and at the firts game against Atletico Madrid i lost 3 - 0 away but i hit 5 post and have 4-5 clear occasion to score

the shots isn't so much, in line whit the normal 4-1-2-3 but not to much for me (except against low team)

the problem are
1) set the extreme team wide, obviusly also the lateral attackers and the difense are to wide
2) the MC left and right is not so wide but however they give pass chances to the defense

the Mc central (the trequartista but in the midfield line) score a lot and is always very dangerous

using a variant whit 3 central defenders (so not whit one and two wing back), there is none in the flanks and this complicate the creation of the action and problem in difense because even if is setted the extreme team wide, this three players stay narrow when the ball is in the centre and so the opposite wings are always free (but this was knowed)

using a classic 3-4-3 the lateral midfilders came too behind to take the ball and is not suitable start the action from the defense


saying a thing about the discussion on the game in general
there is not a problem of formation, but the game isn't a tactic simulator (not enought) and so isn't possible customize tactis.
in english is difficoult to explain, but there are simple solution to improve the game but the Si isn't interest to do a game like that.
in fact in the year the game is became always more simple and commercial

 

[ramie]

could you upload it I'd be interested in giving it a go

 

[SuperXavi]

it is not usable
maybe i try again whit this


so i don't have enlarge the attack but should be problem in defense and also in the recovering of the ball


however in the experiment of this 3-4-3 of this topic, i've seen that a midfield like this is very strong especially in the recovering of the ball (setted whit high press and heavy contrasts)
maybe tactic like this can be impassable and making very offensive lateral and some of Mc, is possible score not so much but enought to win
(or also a 3-1-5-1 in line but the lateral midfielders works bad whit none behind)but aren't a fun tactic to game whitin (especially in the transfers session) so i give up on this