Bayern Munich 4-2-3-1 Counterattack (season 2012/2013)

Regista

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Could you build a tactic of Bayern Munich, when their coach was a Jupp Heynckes, when they played a counterattack and they won a treble?
 
That's not a counter-attacking tactic at all, save for the fact that it uses a Counter mentality. The idea of counter-attacking is to draw the opposition out, then exploit the space behind them. This approach compresses the opposition with a high line and presses them. Not to say that's ineffective - it can be very effective - but its not how Bayern played at that point.
 
That's not a counter-attacking tactic at all, save for the fact that it uses a Counter mentality. The idea of counter-attacking is to draw the opposition out, then exploit the space behind them. This approach compresses the opposition with a high line and presses them. Not to say that's ineffective - it can be very effective - but its not how Bayern played at that point.

I have no idea how bayern played, to be honest, but if you play deep with a counter mentality, you can expect a lot of longshots in your net. I simply made what makes tactical sense to me. For me, counter differentiates from control like brain differentiates from brawn. Seems logical to use shorter passes if you want brains, not brawn, and in that case, the line must be pushed higher. It also fits roles likes SK, which is what I think fluid mentality is all about, giving more responsibility to your whole team, so I picked a fluid formation.
 
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I have no idea how bayern played, to be honest, but if you play deep with a counter mentality, you can expect a lot of longshots in your net. I simply made what makes tactical sense to me. For me, counter differentiates from control like brain differentiates from brawn. Seems logical to use shorter passes if you want brains, not brawn, and in that case, the line must be pushed higher. It also fits roles likes SK, which is what I think fluid mentality is all about, giving more responsibility to your whole team, so I picked a fluid formation.

Trying to recreate something without looking at how it actually functioned doesn't really work, does it? Not to say this won't work in FM - it very well may, and with the screenshots Regista posted, would be fairly direct and attacking, but not overtly risky in its attacking (since is uses Counter mentality).

To actually play on the counter, you have to draw the opposition in, spread them out, and then you have space behind them to launch a counter-attack into that space. Bayern at that point were magnificent at it because of the pace and power they had when they launched a counter. Yes they used a higher line and had some pressing, but it wasn't team pressing and it relied on the forward players contributing to the defensive phase. A Fluid approach makes sense - even Very Fluid - but you won't get a lot of defensive contribution from the front 4 all being on attacking duties. That becomes problematic.

I've played counter mentality quite often since FM16, using both a higher presser (like this here) and a deeper line. Long shots are not automatically a problem. They might be with the set up posted above, because there is no DM and the four forward players contribute nothing defensively. so there are only 4 players fully focused on defending.

Not sure who added all the TIs, but that's a LOT of TIs.
 
Looks good. I have made a few changes. What do you think about it?View attachment 1095370View attachment 1095371

I don't like it, to be honest. Both tempo and passing are too high, you will lose the ball too much. Exploiting flanks might work if opposition gets 2 red cards for their sidebacks, or they are very poor. Work ball into box will slow you down, so would perhaps fit shorter passing and lower tempo. More expressive? Might work, but counter is a defensive mentality, and your primary thought should be defending. It also might lead to not following tactical instructions because of higher fluidity, and speculative shots. Also, when you play direct, width should be narrow, or you wont hit the target, but with counter mentality, you are already somewhat narrow, so with more narrow approach, you would be vulnerable on the flanks.
 
Trying to recreate something without looking at how it actually functioned doesn't really work, does it? Not to say this won't work in FM - it very well may, and with the screenshots Regista posted, would be fairly direct and attacking, but not overtly risky in its attacking (since is uses Counter mentality).

To actually play on the counter, you have to draw the opposition in, spread them out, and then you have space behind them to launch a counter-attack into that space. Bayern at that point were magnificent at it because of the pace and power they had when they launched a counter. Yes they used a higher line and had some pressing, but it wasn't team pressing and it relied on the forward players contributing to the defensive phase. A Fluid approach makes sense - even Very Fluid - but you won't get a lot of defensive contribution from the front 4 all being on attacking duties. That becomes problematic.

I've played counter mentality quite often since FM16, using both a higher presser (like this here) and a deeper line. Long shots are not automatically a problem. They might be with the set up posted above, because there is no DM and the four forward players contribute nothing defensively. so there are only 4 players fully focused on defending.

Not sure who added all the TIs, but that's a LOT of TIs.

View attachment 112584

this is my tactical setup. The other one is from the author of this thread. I'm pretty sure Osram used a DLPd and BWMd and a DFs, and perhaps an Apa or IFa, I just made a no nonsense version and it's working quite well. My beleif is that push higher up has more then one purpose. The first is to connect defense and offense better, the second is to defend just outside the box and stop longshots from going in. The third purpose is basically to squish space, and tire out your players less, or better put, reduce the space players have to move away from their position to close down, to be able to do that faster and more efficiently. Not only that, but when you close down less, all players tend to stick to their position more, and are so better positioned to receive the ball...it will also lead to higher form of players.
 
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this is my tactical setup. The other one is from the author of this thread. I'm pretty sure Osram used a DLPd and BWMd and a DFs, and perhaps an Apa or IFa, I just made a no nonsense version and it's working quite well.

This one makes a lot more sense. I still don't love the 3 of the 4 up front being on attacking duties as that might lead to some issues against some opponents. But not actually conflicted like what Regista posted.

Do you switch up the roles of the two MCs at all? would seem like having one on Defend and one on support might be more complimentary. Or having a DLP there if Xhaka is playing....?
 
This one makes a lot more sense. I still don't love the 3 of the 4 up front being on attacking duties as that might lead to some issues against some opponents. But not actually conflicted like what Regista posted.

Do you switch up the roles of the two MCs at all? would seem like having one on Defend and one on support might be more complimentary. Or having a DLP there if Xhaka is playing....?

No. Basically, because of fluid fluidity. In a fluid setup, CM must do more then just the basic, which is support. He must not just support, he must also attack or defend. Attack duty would be in someone elses space, so two defend duties is a must. I guess you could change the roles, as long as you keep two defend duties. In effect, stuff that happens with one option, doesn't happen with the other, but it's basically the same...
 
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I'm not sure, but maybe Bayern played more counterpressing than just counterattack, like contemporary Liverpool?
 
I'm not sure, but maybe Bayern played more counterpressing than just counterattack, like contemporary Liverpool?

They used a variation of counter-pressing under Heynckes, one that included pressure not just on the ball but on all possible passing options. That can't really be replicated all that well in FM.

You may want to do some tactical reading on the Heyneckes' Bayern.
 
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