For Hodgson, success won't come easy in his step up to Liverpool

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For Hodgson, success won't come easy in his step up to Liverpool

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/writers/jonathan_wilson/archive/

Roy Hodgson arrived at Fulham in 2007 without much fanfare. He was regarded, probably largely because of an unhappy spell at Blackburn Rovers, as a mediocre manager who'd had reasonable success abroad with a string of mid-ranked countries -- Finland, Switzerland, Sweden -- but who couldn't really cut it at the highest level. His two years of rebuilding work at Internazionale in the 1990s, in which the Italian club finished seventh and third and reached the final of the UEFA Cup, was broadly ignored.
In his first months at Craven Cottage, Hodgson improbably saved Fulham from relegation. Then he took the club into Europe and, last season, led it on an unlikely run to the Europa League final, beating such luminaries as Shakhtar Donetsk, Juventus and Wolfsburg. Frankly, it wasn't going to get any better than that. A major vacancy opened at just the right time, Liverpool appointed him and, finally, at 62, Hodgson has his chance with one of the giants of the English game.

That Hodgson is a far better manager than he was given credit for in England until about 18 months ago is indisputable, but that is no guarantee he will be a success at Anfield, and not just because of the boardroom problems that continue to afflict the club.
Only four men have managed two different sides to the English league title: Tom Watson (Sunderland and Liverpool), Herbert Chapman (Huddersfield Town and Arsenal), Brian Clough (Derby County and Nottingham Forest) and Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool and Blackburn Rovers). Which, among other things, suggests that managerial skills are not easily transferable, that a manager who functions well with one group of players in a particular environment may not be equally successful with different players in a different environment. It's worth noting, given the impatience of modern football, that Watson and Chapman were in their fifth seasons before winning a trophy, Dalglish was in his fourth and Clough's first season at both Derby and Forest ended with the club in mid-table in the Second Division. Adjustment takes time, and Liverpool -- both fans and board -- must afford Hodgson the same patience it showed Rafa Benitez.

And then there is the issue of the change of level. Just because you can successfully manage a moderate team on a budget does not mean you can handle superstars and their egos.
"You can be a very good manager of a corner shop," former Manchester City player and director Dennis Tueart said, "but that doesn't mean you can run a multinational. It's a different skill set."
Hodgson, with his gentlemanly manner, gives the impression of being old enough and wise enough to make the change, but the concern must be that his style of play is rooted in organization. He was an early devotee of Allen Wade, the technical director of the Football Association who revolutionized coaching in England in the late 1960s, breaking down the game into its component parts and systematizing it.
Since he first took charge of the Swedish club Halmstad in 1976, Hodgson's method has remained essentially unchanged: 4-4-2 with zonal marking, looking to counter with long diagonals out of defense, and a profound belief in maintaining a disciplined defensive structure. Everybody, of course, talks about keeping the shape, but what has made Hodgson's teams better at doing it than most is practice.
"We work on it every day," Fulham midfielder Simon Davies said last season. "Every day in training is geared toward team shape. I've been working with the manager three seasons now and every day is team shape, and it shows."

The problem is, it's boring.

"We have a little laugh about it now and again," Davies said, "but when he [Hodgson] came in, we were fighting relegation and [he took us to] the Europa League so you take it. If you're going to play for him, you've got to put a shift in and perform, work to a system and be tight defensively. I don't want to give any secrets away, but he gets the 11 that he wants and he drills everything in that he wants. We've got the ball -- it's never unopposed. It's certain drills defensive, certain drills attacking and we work very hard at it. There are no diagrams, it's just all on the pitch. We do a lot of work after every game on analysis, sorting the bad things out, sorting the good things out."

Which raises two issues about Hodgson at Liverpool. First, assuming Steven Gerrard stays, how will Hodgson cope with a player who has always been frustratingly carefree, always prone to attempt the Hollywood pass, always bombing on rather than holding his position?
In watching Germany's Bastian Schweinsteiger during the World Cup, it was hard not to see the player Gerrard could have become with a little more tactical discipline. Benitez ended up despairing of him to the extent of turning him from box-to-box midfielder into a forward.
And second, will players at a club like Liverpool be prepared to put in constant grinding work on the training field? They reportedly chafed at the controlling nature of Benitez's personality; how different will Hodgson be? At first, probably, they will respond, partly because of the novelty of a new manager and partly because they remain chastened after a seventh-place finish last season, but the long term is less clear.

Fulham's players, as Davies admitted, succumbed to Hodgson's regimen because for them the Europa League was unimagined glamour; Liverpool's players may start wondering whether it may not be more fun at Manchester City or AC Milan or Valencia. And that's without even asking the question of how far disciplined football can take a side. To seventh, yes, as Fulham proved; to fourth, perhaps? To second, to first? It may be that to reach highest rungs, the discipline must be leavened by the sort of flair Fulham conspicuously lacked.
Then again, Hodgson is an astute man, and must be aware of the potential problems. Whether he can find solutions, though, is unclear, and that is the gamble Liverpool has taken. With a restricted budget, boardroom turmoil and a manager feeling his way in a new environment, though, nobody should expect results too soon.
 
This thread really deserves to be posted in.

I hope he fails.<)

Even though i quite liked him when he was at fulham.:)
 
i dont mind if it doesnt get posted in, but id rather post something interesting rather than more transfer speculation.

First, assuming Steven Gerrard stays, how will Hodgson cope with a player who has always been frustratingly carefree, always prone to attempt the Hollywood pass, always bombing on rather than holding his position?
In watching Germany's Bastian Schweinsteiger during the World Cup, it was hard not to see the player Gerrard could have become with a little more tactical discipline. Benitez ended up despairing of him to the extent of turning him from box-to-box midfielder into a forward.

this caught my eye though, good as gerrard is, can you imagine how much better he could have been if he had a better tactical brain?
 
this caught my eye though, good as gerrard is, can you imagine how much better he could have been if he had a better tactical brain?

Part of the reason Gerrard is so flippin good is because he does bomb on, and he does get into the positions where he can score goals. He's a different sort of player to Schweinsteiger.
 
Part of the reason Gerrard is so flippin good is because he does bomb on, and he does get into the positions where he can score goals. He's a different sort of player to Schweinsteiger.
but if he could actually use his head, he would be that much better. for example the role he plays for england. if he was more disciplined, he could have utterly destroyed that role, his sheer ability, coupled with know when to hold his position, pass short, or move up, pick out the killer pass at the right time. that was what capello was trying to get out of him
 
but if he could actually use his head, he would be that much better. for example the role he plays for england. if he was more disciplined, he could have utterly destroyed that role, his sheer ability, coupled with know when to hold his position, pass short, or move up, pick out the killer pass at the right time. that was what capello was trying to get out of him

Do you really think Capello wanted Steven Gerrard to stay right out on the left touchline, or as you say, to be more disciplined? No. If he wanted someone to hug the line, he'd have stuck an out-and-out winger over on the left. Capello is a very good manager; he'll have communicated with Stevie, and he'll know he'd drift in. Capello wouldn't have put him there unless he wanted him to drift inside.

I understand what you are saying, but taking away one of the major parts of Gerrard's play that makes him so good, and adding in a part of play that he is far less accustomed to, would surely decrease his overall ability?
 
Do you really think Capello wanted Steven Gerrard to stay right out on the left touchline, or as you say, to be more disciplined? No. If he wanted someone to hug the line, he'd have stuck an out-and-out winger over on the left. Capello is a very good manager; he'll have communicated with Stevie, and he'll know he'd drift in. Capello wouldn't have put him there unless he wanted him to drift inside.

I understand what you are saying, but taking away one of the major parts of Gerrard's play that makes him so good, and adding in a part of play that he is far less accustomed to, would surely decrease his overall ability?
youre missing my point. he wanted steve to drift thats how the LCM plays in zona mista. but its about knowing WHEN to cut in, hold position, get forwards. that is what gerrard lacks. if he had that, he honestly would be the complete midfielder. im not taking it away at all. gerrard gets forward ALL the time, even when its actually detriment to the side. by having the tactical nous to pick and choose the right moment it would make him a better player
 
youre missing my point. he wanted steve to drift thats how the LCM plays in zona mista. but its about knowing WHEN to cut in, hold position, get forwards. that is what gerrard lacks. if he had that, he honestly would be the complete midfielder. im not taking it away at all. gerrard gets forward ALL the time, even when its actually detriment to the side. by having the tactical nous to pick and choose the right moment it would make him a better player

So what you're saying is not that he needs to be more disciplined, not that he should hold his position, but that his desicion making needs to improve?

I think you'll agree with me that Gerrard plays best for Liverpool. Where does he play for Liverpool? In the CAM role, just behind the striker. He gets forward but he also hovers around the centre circle and occasionally gets behind the ball. He always looks to get involved.

My point is, yes, he gets forward alot (although I don't agree with your statement that he never defends, he is a superb tackler) but that is what makes him so great for Liverpool. You're telling me that you think he should stop getting forward so much when he plays for England. That's because he plays on the left wing, right? Asking a player to completely re-adapt his game is absurd. And that's why Gerrard isn't at his best for England. A player like him has no place on the left wing, he needs to be just behind Rooney so he can play to his strengths, and as you say, attack plenty. Comparing him to a Schweinsteiger or a Xabi Alonso type player, who rule the game by just sitting, is taking away the best part of Steven Gerrard's game: the menacing forward runs.
 
This thread really deserves to be posted in.

I hope he fails.<)

Even though i quite liked him when he was at fulham.:)

You work with the tools that you have. With the greatest respect to Fulham, they had an average squad - Roy Hodgson HAD to be workmanlike in his playing system to survive in the premiership. He did this successfully. LFC has an average squad with a core of very good players - we need a disciplined approach to games against teams who've bought bigger & better squads, need to be competative in the short term until the club is on a better financial footing. If this means the occasional in-yer-face game plan, then so be it - as long as the majority of games are played attractively, Red fans won't complain.

On the other hand, if pragmatic football becomes the norm - we'll be the first to gripe. We've had a bellyfull of the safety-first-contain-the opposition-longball bollocks of recent years. I'm intrigued to see how RH utilizes better players in an effective & easy-on-the-eye ( for the most part ) game plan - I guess it's a question of wait & see. (H)

PS: Do you mean you hope he fails because he's the Liverpool manager ( a possibly naive question ) ?
 
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So what you're saying is not that he needs to be more disciplined, not that he should hold his position, but that his desicion making needs to improve?

I think you'll agree with me that Gerrard plays best for Liverpool. Where does he play for Liverpool? In the CAM role, just behind the striker. He gets forward but he also hovers around the centre circle and occasionally gets behind the ball. He always looks to get involved.

My point is, yes, he gets forward alot (although I don't agree with your statement that he never defends, he is a superb tackler) but that is what makes him so great for Liverpool. You're telling me that you think he should stop getting forward so much when he plays for England. That's because he plays on the left wing, right? Asking a player to completely re-adapt his game is absurd. And that's why Gerrard isn't at his best for England. A player like him has no place on the left wing, he needs to be just behind Rooney so he can play to his strengths, and as you say, attack plenty. Comparing him to a Schweinsteiger or a Xabi Alonso type player, who rule the game by just sitting, is taking away the best part of Steven Gerrard's game: the menacing forward runs.
i think youre gett defensive over gerrard so you're being blinded to what i say. i think hes a cracking player, but he could be even better, thats the point i make, and that jonathan wilson makes. we're talking about what could have been.

if his decison making was better, he would quite frankly be an awesome player, i might say unstoppable. its not absurd for a player to adapt to a different position since last season bastian was actually a left winger who made the transition to central mid

and schewinsteiger doesnt just sit. if you watch him for bayern and germany, he pick great times to get forward.
even for liverpool gerrards all action approach sometimes causes problems. there was one game where gerrard's approach was actually disrupting liverpools approach play, so benitez subbed him for lucas, everyone was bemused. then lucas got the winner. after the game rafa said " i took him him off because he was so desperate to make something happen it was making things worse, it required a cool head"

gerrard plays CAM because he lacks some of the tactical nous to be a central midfielder.

zebedee will explain what i mean a lot better than i can. and i never said he cant defend, i said he gets forward all the time, they are two completely different things
 
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To a certain extent i agree about Gerrard,
but there's nothing to say he can't change, i know he's older than Scweinsteiger and all, but he can still do it.
& i think Gerrard's the kind of player who constantly wants to improve...
 
i think youre gett defensive over gerrard so you're being blinded to what i say. i think hes a cracking player, but he could be even better, thats the point i make, and that jonathan wilson makes. we're talking about what could have been.

if his decison making was better, he would quite frankly be an awesome player, i might say unstoppable. its not absurd for a player to adapt to a different position since last season bastian was actually a left winger who made the transition to central mid

and schewinsteiger doesnt just sit. if you watch him for bayern and germany, he pick great times to get forward.
even for liverpool gerrards all action approach sometimes causes problems. there was one game where gerrard's approach was actually disrupting liverpools approach play, so benitez subbed him for lucas, everyone was bemused. then lucas got the winner. after the game rafa said " i took him him off because he was so desperate to make something happen it was making things worse, it required a cool head"

gerrard plays CAM because he lacks some of the tactical nous to be a central midfielder.

zebedee will explain what i mean a lot better than i can. and i never said he cant defend, i said he gets forward all the time, they are two completely different things

If all your saying is that his desicion making could be better, then I'd agree with you.

But you went on to mention he should have been more disciplined, meaning he should stick to his position more, for England. That's the part I disagreed with because Capello wouldn't have put him there if he didn't want him to drift inside and Cole to come bursting up the left.
 
If all your saying is that his desicion making could be better, then I'd agree with you.

But you went on to mention he should have been more disciplined, meaning he should stick to his position more, for England. That's the part I disagreed with because Capello wouldn't have put him there if he didn't want him to drift inside and Cole to come bursting up the left.
when i say disciplined, i mean in terms of the role he had to perform. he tried to play his own game, rather than the game he was required to play, ie holding positon as an outlet to rooney, picking the shorter pass rather than ping a 40 yard hollywood ball, sorry if i didnt explain it well, its late and im rambling a little
 
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when i say disciplined, i mean in terms of the role he had to perform. he tried to play his own game, rather than the game he was required to play, ie holding positon as an outlet to rooney, picking the shorter pass rather than ping a 40 yard hollywood ball, sorry if i didnt explain it well

Haha, that's fine. Always enjoy a decent football discussion.

He was asked to play the left wing role in the World Cup, wasn't he? A) Do you think Capello wanted him to play the left wing role, or do you think he wanted to see Gerrard continously move inside? If you don't think he wanted that, then why did he keep picking Gerrard on the left after he'd witnessed him drifting in every match. B) Do you really think it is fair to ask a player to adapt his usual game to play in a completely different way, at a World Cup finals? He played his way because that's what he knows and that's how he plays best. C) How do you know Capello didn't want him playing the way Stevie wanted?

Although, I do agree with your desicion making comment.
 
i think youre gett defensive over gerrard so you're being blinded to what i say. i think hes a cracking player, but he could be even better, thats the point i make, and that jonathan wilson makes. we're talking about what could have been.

if his decison making was better, he would quite frankly be an awesome player, i might say unstoppable. its not absurd for a player to adapt to a different position since last season bastian was actually a left winger who made the transition to central mid

and schewinsteiger doesnt just sit. if you watch him for bayern and germany, he pick great times to get forward.
even for liverpool gerrards all action approach sometimes causes problems. there was one game where gerrard's approach was actually disrupting liverpools approach play, so benitez subbed him for lucas, everyone was bemused. then lucas got the winner. after the game rafa said " i took him him off because he was so desperate to make something happen it was making things worse, it required a cool head"

gerrard plays CAM because he lacks some of the tactical nous to be a central midfielder.

zebedee will explain what i mean a lot better than i can. and i never said he cant defend, i said he gets forward all the time, they are two completely different things

He played as a box to box midfielder under Houllier did he not?

I blame Benetiz, even at Valencia, he lacked an all round midfielder and sort of had (in a 4-2-3-1) 2 midfielders defending and 1 attacking, rather than a midfielder that can do both(in Gerrards case, be instructed otherwise.)

Personally I think our play wasn't flowing last season and the reason we nearly won the title the season before last was because Alonso was like a box to box midfielder, which took the pressure off of Gerrard as he knew he didn't need to be the only attacking player in the centre of the pitch
 
Haha, that's fine. Always enjoy a decent football discussion.

He was asked to play the left wing role in the World Cup, wasn't he? A) Do you think Capello wanted him to play the left wing role, or do you think he wanted to see Gerrard continously move inside? If you don't think he wanted that, then why did he keep picking Gerrard on the left after he'd witnessed him drifting in every match. B) Do you really think it is fair to ask a player to adapt his usual game to play in a completely different way, at a World Cup finals? He played his way because that's what he knows and that's how he plays best. C) How do you know Capello didn't want him playing the way Stevie wanted?

Although, I do agree with your desicion making comment.
a) he was asked to play left wing but not as an out an out winger rather as the roaming LCM, it requires know the right moment to do both, which is no easy task (this is where the decision making comes in). he has to pick gerrard because the players who can actually play that role, are injured (hargreaves) or badly out of form (carrick). plus if gerrard is able to pull it off the results would be far superior to what the previous two players i mentioned could have done

b)yes i do think its a bit unfair, but he must have had some faith that gerrard was able to do it, i doubt he would have done on a whim.

c)because the way gerrard was playing it left the flank too undermanned at times, and he often left rooney without an option (again the decision making)

i dont blame gerrard for this, for what its worth he made decent fist of it, and the role hes played is hard enough to pull ioff at club level when you are doing it for 50 games a season and practising every day, let alone learning it for a world cup

---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------

He played as a box to box midfielder under Houllier did he not?

I blame Benetiz, even at Valencia, he lacked an all round midfielder and sort of had (in a 4-2-3-1) 2 midfielders defending and 1 attacking, rather than a midfielder that can do both(in Gerrards case, be instructed otherwise.)

Personally I think our play wasn't flowing last season and the reason we nearly won the title the season before last was because Alonso was like a box to box midfielder, which took the pressure off of Gerrard as he knew he didn't need to be the only attacking player in the centre of the pitch
this has always been something that baffled me, since he actually started his career as a dm. i cant say i remember how well he played it back then though
 
You work with the tools that you have. With the greatest respect to Fulham, they had an average squad - Roy Hodgson HAD to be workmanlike in his playing system to survive in the premiership. He did this successfully. LFC has an average squad with a core of very good players - we need a disciplined approach to games against teams who've bought bigger & better squads, need to be competative in the short term until the club is on a better financial footing. If this means the occasional in-yer-face game plan, then so be it - as long as the majority of games are played attractively, Red fans won't complain.

On the other hand, if pragmatic football becomes the norm - we'll be the first to gripe. We've had a bellyfull of the safety-first-contain-the opposition-longball bollocks of recent years. I'm intrigued to see how RH utilizes better players in an effective & easy-on-the-eye ( for the most part ) game plan - I guess it's a question of wait & see. (H)

PS: Do you mean you hope he fails because he's the Liverpool manager ( a possibly naive question ) ?
Yup.
 
this has always been something that baffled me, since he actually started his career as a dm. i cant say i remember how well he played it back then though

He started his career as a RB, was swiftly moved to DM though.

Also, did you know Torres was initially a GK?
 
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