[UPDATE with Tactic!] Marcelo Bielsa's philosophy

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FootballPassion

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Original Post:
Hello everybody.I've made some search on that "crazy" coach but i have some questions to ask you, God of FM's tactic :pThe passing style is more direct that short , right ? Closing down at maximum but marking at zonal or man-marking ? Fast tempo or slow ? I think that it's more fast to create quick goalscoring opportunities but i read that his philosophy is to create some structured goalscoring opportunities so ..Is there a playmaker or not in his tactic ? Thanks for future answers* I'm french so sorry if i've made some mistakes *

UPDATE:
03/04/2012:
HERE WE ARE!!
First season finished. The results are good.
2nd in LaLiga. Win in the Cup. Win in the Europa League. A total of 166 goals scored, an average of 2,6 per match. 53 goals conceded with an average of 0,8.

Five Key players stats:
Llorente: 45 goals, 25 assists
Muniain: 34 goals, 27 assists
Susaeta: 25 goals, 18 assists.
Amorebieta: 10 goals (!), 3 assists.
Herrera: 8 goals, 19 assists.

OI: Set EVERY PLAYER closing down and marking to always.
Pitch size: Don't really remember but i think that is the classic one.
Shouts are in screenshot.

Tactics, screenshots in attachements!
Post your feelings!
 
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So, i red the article on Zonal Marking. There still a few questions.
About the tempo. In the article, it's written "But what Athletic did excellently here was with the ball, moving it quickly from player to player, but reasonably patiently when United had men behind the ball." So what will it be in FM? Slow or fast tempo ?!
They speak about the very high pressing of all the player and of the man-marking of almost the player. But in fm, I'm fear that if I put man-marking on to all my player, it will let some space for the opponent. So how about that ?


 
I've also been trying to emulate the way Bielsa plays. I'm from Chile, son since he managed our national team i've been a fan of him, and now managing Ajax and seeing what he's been doing in Bilbao i wanted to try an replicate his philosophy. Having said that, the way I play is not exacly like him, but I try to take some elements of his playing style and adapt them into my tactics.

What Bielsa tends to do regarding his defensive play, as you pointed it out, is to play with a man marking sistem, but allways leaving a spare man in the back. The way i've tryed to do this is playing a 4-1-2-2-1 (the way Bielsa is playing in Bilbao), with a defender set to Cover, with Zonal Marking, and NO Tight Marking. This allows him to stay allways back, covering the space that the other defender leaves when he rush out to stop de striker he's marking.

Also, the way I play is not using the Man Marking in the default value, but actually setting each player to mark a specific player in the oposite team. Usualy, what i do to deal to an oponen with 2 strikers is to set 1 Defender and the DMC to mark them, and that way allows me to keep my spare man in the back, and also this brings my DMC (usualy set to Anchor Man) to the back, setting almost every time a line of 3 defenders when i'm not in possession.

regarding the passing, i ussualy play with a short passing game, or play with passing on default, with a quick tempo. Playing with default allows your players to be more free when deciding to play in a more direct way when on the counter, but still retain possession when controling the play.

Hope this helps.
 
FootballPassion said:
So, i red the article on Zonal Marking. There still a few questions.
About the tempo. In the article, it's written "But what Athletic did excellently here was with the ball, moving it quickly from player to player, but reasonably patiently when United had men behind the ball." So what will it be in FM? Slow or fast tempo ?!
They speak about the very high pressing of all the player and of the man-marking of almost the player. But in fm, I'm fear that if I put man-marking on to all my player, it will let some space for the opponent. So how about that ?
Click to expand...

Well, basically thats "play through defence" and "hassle", something that does work in FM so no worries
 
has anybody made a tactic like this because it would be interesting to try it out
 
So thank you Serious Sim and TheBetterHalf.
I tried to recreate the tactic of Bielsa with Bilbao but it's quit a fail. I'm actually 9th in the league. The main problem is that I conceded much goal. I will try what you say both two with the "spare man" and the "play through defense" and "hassle" instruction. My passing style is actually on default and i use a quick tempo like you SeriousSim but my DMC is not a anchorman it's actually a defensive midfielder; I'll change this.
So i'll try what you say both and I'll say what's going on.
But just wonder. Which duty did you give to Llorente ? (Or your central forward )
Because I set him as poacher but i haven't got great resuts.
 
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Bielsa has few basic principles (as people have already replied here):

- Always a spare man at the back. (= 3 man defense against two strikers, 4 man defense against a lone striker system)

- Quick transitions, but patient build-up if the opposing team's shape is in place. (= Counter attack box ticked, but not too quick tempo in general)

- High pressing.

- Direct passing. It doesn't necessarily mean that the ball leaves the ground, but Bielsa likes his teams to pass midfield area quickly, since especially with Chile, he usually didn't have numerical advantage at the center of the pitch.

- Man Marking. It's hard to replicate in FM, unless you manually assign players to mark certain opposing players every time before the match starts, but there's a work-around:

- Use ''Very Rigid'' as the philosophy. I know, the description of the philosophy in the FM doesn't sound good, but it absolutely works. That's the only way to make the high-pressing / man marking work without conceding many goals. Your team will press the opposition, but the shape of your team stays more or less intact and they stick to their men. And unlike with any other settings, the players placed on the attacking third (AMC, AML etc.) will actually track back to defend.


And I'd personally use Llorente as ''complete forward'', and tick him as the target man. Especially Amorabieta, mainly due to his lacking skill though, often launches long balls towards him from the back.

One thing might prove to be problematic however, and that's how close your players stay to their men. This is where you might have to tinker with your shape. Eg. Let's say your facing 4-2-3-1 system, and your playing a flat back four. Your FB's might stay too far away from the opposing wingers, and allow them the space to turn. You may want to experiment with moving your FB's to WB position, so they'll be as aggressive as Bielsa's defenders are.

Same thing goes with your ''three at the back'' system, when facing a 4-4-2 shape. It might feel natural to place the wide players at the ''WB'' position, but again, this might mean that they stay too far away from the opposing wingers. So this is where you could experiment with placing those players all the way to midfield positions, and thus making them stay closer to their men.

Good luck with the tactic!
 
Thank you for your contribution. But i don't think that the very rigid philosophy is that good. I don't know if you watch some Bilbao's game but if you do you'll see that Iraola often moves forward, same case for Herrera. The very rigid philosophy will obliged them to stay at their position and I don't want it. But I will test it anyway to see what happend.

And I don't know if I understand what you say with the FB and the WB. Say it if I'm wrong. You said that when I'm facing 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 I should put the FB to WB position ? But I don't understand why. Can you explain that ?
 
@Footballpassion

You can allow roaming from player instructions and more creative freedom, or even have players switching positions with each other- but very rigid philosophy just gives different kind of pressing. ''Fluid'' or ''very fluid'' philosophy, combined with high pressing brakes your shape completely, and thus negates the whole man marking principle at the start, as well as the principle of having that spare man at the back. When you combine ''very rigid'' philosophy with high pressing, you get that good amount of pressure, but players aren't that willing to leave their position when doing it. Eg. You won't find your CM (=central midfielder) pressing the opposing CB (=Center back), which often happens with fluid philosophy.


And about the placement of the wide defensive players... I meant that if they're not getting close enough to their opponents, you may try to move them higher up the pitch, to the same level as the opposing wingers are. That might not be necessary, but if you feel like the wingers have too much time & space, then you can move the defensive wide players up- in both basic shapes.
 
So I tried what you said except of the FB to WB because i test it one time but the WB were going to high for the pressing.

There are the results. 2nd in La Liga, Final of the Cup and Quarter Finals of the Europa League.

Some explanation:
The first change i've made to the tactics was about the passing style and the duty of ATTACKING players.
Second change was the one that Konsta87, TheBetterHalf and SeriousSim said : a more faster tempo, very rigid philosophy, and the shout "Hassle opponents" and " Work ball into box". Work ball into box was use because there were too much of wasted opportunities by long shots.
The win 5-2 against Real Madrid seems incredible so I give you some information about the match. C.Ronaldo wasn't on the field, like Alonso and Khedira. Ramos and Albiol were sent off after like 50 minutes of game.

When I'll have finish the season, I'll uploaded the tactic so you could give it a go. It will be tomorow or maybe wednesday.
 
I'm also trying to recreate what I've seen from Bilbao this season. So far my results have been really impressive. What I've done is create a 4-5-1, Anchorman in the middle with short passing and low creative freedom, two ball playing CB's one with more freedom to start moves, the other set to cover. I use wing backs who make plenty of forward runs to support the attack but also defend. My two CM's are pretty much the same - high creative freedom, lots of through balls. Striker is a complete forward nd my wingers cut inside.

I play a high pressing, direct game with a quick tempo. However I use Retain Possession on shouts, which kind of emulates what everyone says about how Bielsa's teams play quick and direct but slow it down when the other team are behind the ball, so when options are few they play it back and work it around.

I'm 3rd in the league and hot on the heels of Real Madrid in 2nd.
 
i tried making el loco's tactic a few weeks back and i think i did a good job. i use a 4-5-1 or 4221 or 433 which ever you call it.

philosophy- very fluid
strategy- attacking
passing style-short
creative freedom- more disciplined
closing down- press more
tackling- default
marking-man
crossing-float
roaming- default
counter- no

I used the tactics creator to do this.

iraizoz- goal keeper defend
martinez- central defender stopper
amorebieta- limited defender cover
iraola- wingback support
aurtenetxe- fullback support
iturraspe- dlp support(dm position)
ander herrera- advanced playmaker attack
de marcos- advanced playmaker support
susaeta- winger attack
muniain- inside forward attack
llorente- target man attack

adjustments-
iraola wideplay to move into channels
llorente- move into channels, zonal marking and no tight marking
focus passing- down right flank
martinez specifically man marks the lone striker

shouts-
hassle opponent
play through defence
work ball into box

i am particularly good at reading statistics so if you want to check out Athletic Bilbao you will find alot of information on the bielsa way.
 
You can try these ones, quite close to his philosophy in Athletic and I use Athletic
1) no shouts
2) assistant opp.instructions
3) match preparation: away - def positioning (medium), home attacking - movement (medium), preseason - teamwork (very high), between matches - teamwork (high or medium); against strong oppositions - attacking movement (very high)
4) home tactic - standard and if you create chances and seem to control the game change to attack; if you score change to standard or counter
5) away tactic - start with standard and if it seems they create CCCs or half chances - change to counter
6) against strong oppositions play on counter
7) play with the 2 defenders against 1 defender and 3 defenders against 2 (see from the scouting the opponents` preferable formation)
8) Having a ball playing defender is important cause he will try a lot of trough balls (I play Javi Martinez and he has not even trained the position and he has an average rating of 7.3)
9) Follow the instructions of you assistant and his advices - sometimes you will need to change the tackling, crossing and passing distance.
10)good luck

Keep in mind that I have tested the tactic in only 10-15 matches, but I am first at the Spanish League and have won all of my matches in the Europa League for now and that I got a monster Target Man like Lliorente who scores for fun.
 
FootballPassion said:
So I tried what you said except of the FB to WB because i test it one time but the WB were going to high for the pressing.

There are the results. 2nd in La Liga, Final of the Cup and Quarter Finals of the Europa League.

Some explanation:
The first change i've made to the tactics was about the passing style and the duty of ATTACKING players.
Second change was the one that Konsta87, TheBetterHalf and SeriousSim said : a more faster tempo, very rigid philosophy, and the shout "Hassle opponents" and " Work ball into box". Work ball into box was use because there were too much of wasted opportunities by long shots.
The win 5-2 against Real Madrid seems incredible so I give you some information about the match. C.Ronaldo wasn't on the field, like Alonso and Khedira. Ramos and Albiol were sent off after like 50 minutes of game.

When I'll have finish the season, I'll uploaded the tactic so you could give it a go. It will be tomorow or maybe wednesday.
Click to expand...

Looking very good. Lots of clean sheets and seems like your team is hard to beat. Good amount of goals as well!
 
Looks pretty good, well done. Only have one criticism. To me, the most impressive element of the Bielsa Philosophy is that the players move with so much freedom. There is no "i'm a CM so i won't close down the opposing CB".....surely you have to set the tactic to very fluid, rather than very rigid????
 
ohembrough747 said:
Looks pretty good, well done. Only have one criticism. To me, the most impressive element of the Bielsa Philosophy is that the players move with so much freedom. There is no "i'm a CM so i won't close down the opposing CB".....surely you have to set the tactic to very fluid, rather than very rigid????
Click to expand...
There is a limit to closing down. I'm not sure that if you watch Bilbao play, you'll see Ituraspe closing down a CB. The tactic was set to very fluid but then i change to very rigid for some good results: - Less goal conceded.
- The closing down was more like I saw it. Each player has is own player to closing down.
With the very fluid philosophy player move too up on the pitch for the marking or closing down. It causes too much spaces at the back and then goal for your opponent.
 
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