Read this thread and you will know the striker doesn't drop deep enough and will not defend well no matter what duty you give them.
Developing my 4-4-2
Developing my 4-4-2
Tactical problems
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WJ
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I can't comment on your overall system, but I am wondering how well the players link up with the way you have them positioned. Why is the CM/D the RCM and why is the AP/S the LCM?
What mentality?
Apart from my post 31, which you still haven't acknowledged, you seem to disregard PPMs (player preferred moves). Why is that?
What mentality?
Apart from my post 31, which you still haven't acknowledged, you seem to disregard PPMs (player preferred moves). Why is that?
Conflictinbanno
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Without going off of this post. I wonder could that be an issue at all?
It's just in my 442 it is similar
FB/S CD/D CD/D FB/S
W/A CM/D DLP/S W/S
F9/S P/A
The reason I did that setup was I felt, if the CM/D was behind the F9, then it would allow to have the F9 to have more space to drop into...(I used to use an AP/S instead of a DLP/S so this is more tied to the original role of my choice), my other worry was having the AP/S and the F9/S in the same line, I worried that it could cause a congestion of the AP and F9 wanting the ball in a similar area and I worried they could end up on top of each other so to speak...but would that be an error of judgement and just in fact bring the two closer together, giving them a much simpler passing option? And possibly bring the gulf separation of the attack and midfield together?
WJ
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It's just that usually, the more defensive player (in your case) would be on the left, next to the support duty winger to cover for the attacking fullback. Okay, you don't have attacking fullbacks so that point is moot.
The other possible issue is that the DLP/S (or his AP/S) will be next to the winger. In terms of diagonal passes (think triangles) that's not great. The DLP/S here will most likely only have the F9 to pass to. Passing to the winger next to him is almost pointless. Both he and the winger should have someone on them. There's little movement there. On the other side, there's a big gap between the CM/D and a winger who will bomb down the field. He's also not that close to the F9. His only realistic, regular passing option is the DLPS (or his AP/S).
So you're seeing this:
--------CM/D--------------------------
---------------------DLP/S------------
-----------------------------------W/S
W/A -----------------------------------
---------F9/S--------------------------
----------------------P/A--------------
Look at how the CM/D can almost only pass to the playmaker. The playmaker then to the winger.
Look at the separation of the front 3 from the back 3. The attacking winger is probably the main reason for the disconnect.
If they were swapped, you'd see this:
---------------------CM/D-------------
--------DLP/S-------------------------
-----------------------------------W/S
W/A -----------------------------------
---------F9/S--------------------------
----------------------P/A--------------
CM/D now has 2 options. DLP has 2 options.
The other possible issue is that the DLP/S (or his AP/S) will be next to the winger. In terms of diagonal passes (think triangles) that's not great. The DLP/S here will most likely only have the F9 to pass to. Passing to the winger next to him is almost pointless. Both he and the winger should have someone on them. There's little movement there. On the other side, there's a big gap between the CM/D and a winger who will bomb down the field. He's also not that close to the F9. His only realistic, regular passing option is the DLPS (or his AP/S).
So you're seeing this:
--------CM/D--------------------------
---------------------DLP/S------------
-----------------------------------W/S
W/A -----------------------------------
---------F9/S--------------------------
----------------------P/A--------------
Look at how the CM/D can almost only pass to the playmaker. The playmaker then to the winger.
Look at the separation of the front 3 from the back 3. The attacking winger is probably the main reason for the disconnect.
If they were swapped, you'd see this:
---------------------CM/D-------------
--------DLP/S-------------------------
-----------------------------------W/S
W/A -----------------------------------
---------F9/S--------------------------
----------------------P/A--------------
CM/D now has 2 options. DLP has 2 options.
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Conflictinbanno
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Couldn't have asked for a better explanation than that, I might look into that on my save to see an improvement, especially in games where the opposition defend in numbers as it felt sometimes we could never break them down and it might just be that, there aren't enough easy passing options, so they opt to go long over the top hoping the poacher can run onto it.
WJ
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I've had my share of fairly balanced tactics (at first glance) being inconsistent because I didn't follow my own advice of watching a few minutes in full. When I did that, I instantly saw that my two strikers had the right roles, but needed to swap sides because (similar to this) I'm limiting passing options. It's such a simple thing and a simple change, but it's easy to miss and can make quite a big difference.
Martial just doesn't score. I bought this wonderkid in my Watford at 2nd season. I use 4-3-2-1 formation with 2 inside (attack), and Martial is left inside here, but he scored only 1 goal and 2 penalties in 11 league matches. wtf is wrong with him. Zivkovic playing right inside is quite good, but this guy is really waste now.View attachment 177389View attachment 177388
WJ
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Read through this and start your OWN thread: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...tics/350220-looking-tactical-help-advice.html
Hi
after reading you, watching games and trying to understand, i thought i had a good tactic.
I tried to start a new save and results were awful.
14 matches 6-2-6 with milan. 18 scored 19 conceeded.
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-at cm-de apm-su w-at
ss-at
dlf-su
Standard, slightly higher, more short passing.
Attacking: despite i scored only 18 goals, i'm satisfied. I want a defensive tactic so this scoring stats must be enough to win 1-0 most of the games. I see good movements: ss comes deep, dlf is ok. All of them have good ratings (more than 7). In fact, all my players have +7 rating but gk, cd-de and cm-de, so it's clearly a defence problem.
Defence: Complete disaster. The worst is that i don't know why. Agains weaker teams i don't conceed simply because the opponent plays very deep and defensive (but i still conceed 0,5 goals per game). The thing becomes awful against opponents that don't park the bus.
Issues: I don't know where is the problem (exactly). Some ideas
- opponents are very effective. They ALWAYS, and when i say always is always, every match, have less shots and ccc.
- I conceeded 4 goals from penalty shot.
- cd-de and cm-de ratings below 7, even below 6.5. They are romagnoli, zapata and de jong. I know they are not baresi and costacurta, but something must be happening and must be something very bad.
- I tried higher defence and deeper. Didn't work.
- Changed gk to swk. Didn't work.
- I changed the apm to dlp. Didn't work
- Changed cm-de to bwm-de and bwm-su. Didn't work.
- I tried several combinations of these changes, and didn't work of course.
When I say didn't work is that i played a few more games and results where similar (player ratings and team results).
The worst is that i don't have the feeling they are playing bad. Tackles are good, positioning is good. I don't know how the opponent scores. There is no pattern. Sometimes crosses, sometimes counter...I hope you understand what i mean.
Tell me if you need more info.
Thanks a lot.
after reading you, watching games and trying to understand, i thought i had a good tactic.
I tried to start a new save and results were awful.
14 matches 6-2-6 with milan. 18 scored 19 conceeded.
fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su
w-at cm-de apm-su w-at
ss-at
dlf-su
Standard, slightly higher, more short passing.
Attacking: despite i scored only 18 goals, i'm satisfied. I want a defensive tactic so this scoring stats must be enough to win 1-0 most of the games. I see good movements: ss comes deep, dlf is ok. All of them have good ratings (more than 7). In fact, all my players have +7 rating but gk, cd-de and cm-de, so it's clearly a defence problem.
Defence: Complete disaster. The worst is that i don't know why. Agains weaker teams i don't conceed simply because the opponent plays very deep and defensive (but i still conceed 0,5 goals per game). The thing becomes awful against opponents that don't park the bus.
Issues: I don't know where is the problem (exactly). Some ideas
- opponents are very effective. They ALWAYS, and when i say always is always, every match, have less shots and ccc.
- I conceeded 4 goals from penalty shot.
- cd-de and cm-de ratings below 7, even below 6.5. They are romagnoli, zapata and de jong. I know they are not baresi and costacurta, but something must be happening and must be something very bad.
- I tried higher defence and deeper. Didn't work.
- Changed gk to swk. Didn't work.
- I changed the apm to dlp. Didn't work
- Changed cm-de to bwm-de and bwm-su. Didn't work.
- I tried several combinations of these changes, and didn't work of course.
When I say didn't work is that i played a few more games and results where similar (player ratings and team results).
The worst is that i don't have the feeling they are playing bad. Tackles are good, positioning is good. I don't know how the opponent scores. There is no pattern. Sometimes crosses, sometimes counter...I hope you understand what i mean.
Tell me if you need more info.
Thanks a lot.
Conflictinbanno
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Hmm, one thing that might not be helping you defensively is you have both wide men on attack duties, so they will look forward a lot more and could leave your full backs exposed. On one side it shouldn't be too bad as he is protected by the CM/D, on the other side the FB is exposed as the AP and the Winger could be in the final third when you lose the ball.
This means the CM/D has more work to try and get across and cover, so it could explain the lower ratings, due to him having to cover a lot more space than usual.
I wouldn't recommend having both wingers on attack in a 4411, unless you maybe had a DLP/D next to the CM/D, but it could result in you being a bit one dimensional...
This means the CM/D has more work to try and get across and cover, so it could explain the lower ratings, due to him having to cover a lot more space than usual.
I wouldn't recommend having both wingers on attack in a 4411, unless you maybe had a DLP/D next to the CM/D, but it could result in you being a bit one dimensional...
I'm very close to surrender. I changed:
cm-de to bwm-de
apm-su to dlp-su
Dropped defence to normal
width fairly narrow
Everybody is playing well (above 7 rating even 8 my ss and dlf, despite i'm not scoring a lot) but
gk 6.86
cd right side 6.89
bwm-de 6.84
I'm conceeding more or less the same. They are making huge mistakes. Own goals are a classic.
I'm dominating all games, more possession (even when i'm not interested in possession), more chances, more everything. Stats are a scandal. I outnumber the opponent everywhere. My players always have options to pass. Very nice.
But when you think you are playing well then come those two idiots to ruin the game.
The worst of all is that it is not their fault. It is the tactic because whoever plays in those positions, gets a low rating.
Results: 6 w 6 d 5 l 21-16 goals. last 8 games 1w 4 d 3 l
I don't know what to do. I don't know what's wrong.
cm-de to bwm-de
apm-su to dlp-su
Dropped defence to normal
width fairly narrow
Everybody is playing well (above 7 rating even 8 my ss and dlf, despite i'm not scoring a lot) but
gk 6.86
cd right side 6.89
bwm-de 6.84
I'm conceeding more or less the same. They are making huge mistakes. Own goals are a classic.
I'm dominating all games, more possession (even when i'm not interested in possession), more chances, more everything. Stats are a scandal. I outnumber the opponent everywhere. My players always have options to pass. Very nice.
But when you think you are playing well then come those two idiots to ruin the game.
The worst of all is that it is not their fault. It is the tactic because whoever plays in those positions, gets a low rating.
Results: 6 w 6 d 5 l 21-16 goals. last 8 games 1w 4 d 3 l
I don't know what to do. I don't know what's wrong.
Hi all,
this is over. Thank you very much for your help, but finally it resulted useless.
Fm16 is too difficult or I am completely stupid . I don't understand why things happen, so i can't change anything.
I can't see any connection with real football.
Thanks for all and I hope you have better luck than me.
this is over. Thank you very much for your help, but finally it resulted useless.
Fm16 is too difficult or I am completely stupid . I don't understand why things happen, so i can't change anything.
I can't see any connection with real football.
Thanks for all and I hope you have better luck than me.
Ive read through the whole thread and i think that the biggest mistake is that you dont have a clear vision about how you want your team to play while at the same time you also dont understand basic FM principles. I used to not understand basic fm principles when i started playing it so i only used downloaded plug and play tactics. But at the same time i started reading on fm voraciously and i still do. What im trying to say is that there is no substitute to reading and reading if you want to make up decent tactics
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WJ
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I even covered the issue of not having a vision of how to play.
I also offered to assist if he posts a PKM so that we can all see the same match in front of us.
It was clear that he struggled and was either lazy or didn't see the issues right in front of him. I broke the post into 3 easy sections.
- Get a vision
- What if you don't have a vision?
- If all else fails, upload PKM.
No luck. That post still hasn't even been acknowledged. No PKM yet either.
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Hi all,
of course I'm not giving up but I'll need your help... Again.
I do have a plan I explained it a lot of times.
Of course I don't understand fm basic principles. I know this is the problem but the more I read the more confused I am.
If you pay attention, my tactics, as far as i know, are supposed to suit perfectly with fm basic principles.
Let's try again:
THE PLAN:
Simple football 4-4-2.
4 men at back, i want solid defence, 1-0 is the best result. I don't care if i have problems scoring i don't want to conceed.
4 midfielders. 2 wm exploiting flanks and helping defence. In the middle one creator and one destructor and sitter/runner combination.
2 strikers: Although SS is a midfielder.
gk-de
fb-su: I want my fb to basically defend but also get forward if needed.
cd-de: Is there an alternative? Is a limited defender more solid?
cd-de
fb-su
wm-su: I want to exploit the flanks but i think wm suits better than wing because wm helps more the defence.
dlp-su
bwm-de: I explain. I have a sitter/runner combination. I think this combination is the most defensive possibe because the creative dlp also holds position and the bwm-de is able to give a few long runs but focusing in defence.
wm-su
SS-at
dlf-su: this is the best attacking combination i've found. We have a dlf who comes deep and creates spaces for the SS, who will become the main scorer. Also he should help me to defend.
With this tactic i exploit the flanks with my wm but also the middle is exploited with short passing combinations among dlp, dlf and ss.
I know this is not a 442 100% because I have a ss, but ss-dlf is the only combination that works for me.
TI's:
Standard: I'm not sure if counter would be better for my tactic.
Fairly narrow: I was conceeding a lot, i changed this and it improved. The reason? I don't know exactly. Maybe now the team is more compact.
Slightly higher: I read that in a flat 442 there is a lot of space between defence and midfield so if i set my defence higher i will reduce this space.
Short passing: I was not scoring, I changed it and I'm scoring more now.
Issues:
-quite solid at home, disaster away. I'm the second best team at home and the 14 away
- Bwm-de and right cd-de low ratings and stupid mistakes
- I usually conceed a goal when i play away in the first 10-15 mins (very often first shot is goal)
- I still have the maradona issue: 1 opponent against my 2 cd-de, bwm-de and dlp-su manages to score.
- Away are equaled games, but i hardly ever win.
With all this information, could you be so nice to tell me if i'm missing any fm basic principle?
Thanks a lot.
of course I'm not giving up but I'll need your help... Again.
I do have a plan I explained it a lot of times.
Of course I don't understand fm basic principles. I know this is the problem but the more I read the more confused I am.
If you pay attention, my tactics, as far as i know, are supposed to suit perfectly with fm basic principles.
Let's try again:
THE PLAN:
Simple football 4-4-2.
4 men at back, i want solid defence, 1-0 is the best result. I don't care if i have problems scoring i don't want to conceed.
4 midfielders. 2 wm exploiting flanks and helping defence. In the middle one creator and one destructor and sitter/runner combination.
2 strikers: Although SS is a midfielder.
gk-de
fb-su: I want my fb to basically defend but also get forward if needed.
cd-de: Is there an alternative? Is a limited defender more solid?
cd-de
fb-su
wm-su: I want to exploit the flanks but i think wm suits better than wing because wm helps more the defence.
dlp-su
bwm-de: I explain. I have a sitter/runner combination. I think this combination is the most defensive possibe because the creative dlp also holds position and the bwm-de is able to give a few long runs but focusing in defence.
wm-su
SS-at
dlf-su: this is the best attacking combination i've found. We have a dlf who comes deep and creates spaces for the SS, who will become the main scorer. Also he should help me to defend.
With this tactic i exploit the flanks with my wm but also the middle is exploited with short passing combinations among dlp, dlf and ss.
I know this is not a 442 100% because I have a ss, but ss-dlf is the only combination that works for me.
TI's:
Standard: I'm not sure if counter would be better for my tactic.
Fairly narrow: I was conceeding a lot, i changed this and it improved. The reason? I don't know exactly. Maybe now the team is more compact.
Slightly higher: I read that in a flat 442 there is a lot of space between defence and midfield so if i set my defence higher i will reduce this space.
Short passing: I was not scoring, I changed it and I'm scoring more now.
Issues:
-quite solid at home, disaster away. I'm the second best team at home and the 14 away
- Bwm-de and right cd-de low ratings and stupid mistakes
- I usually conceed a goal when i play away in the first 10-15 mins (very often first shot is goal)
- I still have the maradona issue: 1 opponent against my 2 cd-de, bwm-de and dlp-su manages to score.
- Away are equaled games, but i hardly ever win.
With all this information, could you be so nice to tell me if i'm missing any fm basic principle?
Thanks a lot.
WJ
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When attacking, do you not have a fairly big gap between the 2 CMs and the SS/A? The 2 CMs will be quite reserved with the ball, although the DLP will make his way forward eventually, while the SS/A will make a lot of forward runs.
Hi,
no. I don't see that big space. On the contrary, i see great linking between dlp, ss and dlf. I create a lot of chances. Attacking is good enough. The problem is conceeding.
The concrete problem is my cm-right. As you may already know, i used there a cm-de, bwm-su, bwm-de. I want him to be the most defensive midfielder so I don't know what other roles can i use there.
Sorry, what is a PKM?
WJ
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A Support player will never be the most defensive. It's just not what a Support duty does? A ball-winning midfielder will want to win the ball, as is his role, so he will be aggressively closing down and tackling to do that.
Click on a fixture, then Save Match. PKM saved. Then just upload it. We'll still need to know the exact tactics and preferably the changes you made in-match too.
Click on a fixture, then Save Match. PKM saved. Then just upload it. We'll still need to know the exact tactics and preferably the changes you made in-match too.
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