anyone managed to create a good tactic with a "deep 4231" formation?

[Uygar89]

hi guys,
i was just wondering, if its possible to get a deep 4231 working in fm. irl its one of the most popular system, especially known for his defensive strength. in fm terms i kinda have the feeling that its defensively just horrible and you cant really dominate an opposition and even struggle to get shots on target or create any chances. im always facing the same problems, no matter what i change. i cant get a connection between my two holding players and my amc, when i want my amc to act more like a scnd striker and want him to make runs from deeper positions, he just holds his position when one of my wingers cut inside and looks for a player to run into the space so that he can play the through ball. ive tried it out with roaming+run into channel, rfd sometimes-often even high mentality + rfd seldom, it just doesnt work. defensively my two holding midfielders are getting outplayed so easily, no matter what settings they have. can you believe, that i had much more success with the old fashioned 442 diamond? it sound unrealistically, but in fm you have much more defensive stability, if you play with one dmc in the centre position. this way he really waits in front of the backline and makes sure, that the gap is closed. but when i play with two dmcs, one of them leaves his position to close down the opposition and the other one, instead of protecting the gap, his partner left, he just holds his position so that there is a huge gap. ive looked for some good working 4231, but couldnt really find one with a solid defence. so my question to you guys, did you make the same experiences with this formation? even when i change the dmcs to mcs, it doesnt help. the barcelona 41221 and the 41212 formations are really solid in defence. but only because you have that 1dmc protection two mcs. but if you play with two dmcs and one mc in front of them, than you face the same problems as if you played a typical deep 4231 formation. its just absurd, since playing with two holding midfielders should normally give you much more protection -.-

 

[Andrewpage14]

The best 4231 Ive done was with the DMCs moved to CM and have one set to ball winner defend and the other to deep lying playmaker support, tried it with DMCs but couldnt get it working, the gap between the DMs and AMs was too big.

 

[Lol_101]

there's a big gap in the middle with a dm and am. i always go in nomarl 4-2-3-1 wingers formation

 

[Frank from Poland]

This may be quite usefull: '4-2-3-1' formation and Manchester United's recent usage of it - The Busby Babe

I personally like deep 4-2-3-1 formation, both with AMC or MC. If You want to create a tactic with such formation, You can use Liverpool's tactic when managed by Benitez. He definitelly has been using deep 4-2-3-1. In that formation, very important are specific roles of the players. You have to separate duties for two DM's - good way is to choose passer - deep lying playmaker (Alonso in Liverpool) and destroyer - anchor man (Mascherano). In front of them, there was operating Gerrard, but not as inside forward, rather attacking midfielder / advanced playmaker. On the wings, Benitez used combo of inside forward, who had also some defensive duties (Kuyt) and classic offensive, speedy winger. On forward - Fernando Torres as advanced forward with attack role. If You want fluent transition from defence to attack and to build connection between defensive (defenders, def mids) and offensive (att mids, striker) blocks of players, You should choose as Your AMC a player who likes to come deep to get the ball - it shoud cover the hole between defence and attack.

That formation also allows You to eliminate one, particulary danger player without the risk by telling to one of Your DMs to cover him tight - there is always second def mid, who will close down any danger in the middle.

EDIT: There are some teams, which have perfect squad to use that formation with success - Fiorentina, Real Madrid, Roma, Tottenham and some more.

 

[Uygar89]

This may be quite usefull: '4-2-3-1' formation and Manchester United's recent usage of it - The Busby Babe

I personally like deep 4-2-3-1 formation, both with AMC or MC. If You want to create a tactic with such formation, You can use Liverpool's tactic when managed by Benitez. He definitelly has been using deep 4-2-3-1. In that formation, very important are specific roles of the players. You have to separate duties for two DM's - good way is to choose passer - deep lying playmaker (Alonso in Liverpool) and destroyer - anchor man (Mascherano). In front of them, there was operating Gerrard, but not as inside forward, rather attacking midfielder / advanced playmaker. On the wings, Benitez used combo of inside forward, who had also some defensive duties (Kuyt) and classic offensive, speedy winger. On forward - Fernando Torres as advanced forward with attack role. If You want fluent transition from defence to attack and to build connection between defensive (defenders, def mids) and offensive (att mids, striker) blocks of players, You should choose as Your AMC a player who likes to come deep to get the ball - it shoud cover the hole between defence and attack.

That formation also allows You to eliminate one, particulary danger player without the risk by telling to one of Your DMs to cover him tight - there is always second def mid, who will close down any danger in the middle.

EDIT: There are some teams, which have perfect squad to use that formation with success - Fiorentina, Real Madrid, Roma, Tottenham and some more.

well, i guess you guys didnt really understand me -.-
i know how i need to set the midfield duo, but i just wrote something about a me bug. youre always being outplayed when you play a 4231deep, no matter wheter with 2dmc or 2mc. the wingers dont drop back and build a 4men block as its often done irl. they tend to attack the opposition very quickly and then your two dmcs are left alone against 6-7 opposition players. its also getting on my nerves, that if one dmc is closing down a player the other one doesnt fill the gap but rather holds his position, so that the opposition has a huge room to run into. when i play a formation with one cm, i have much more success defensively, cause this cm really plays like an anchor man, who sits in front of the defence. i dont know, what the reason is, but the match engine is so buggy. you cant play formations with two holding midfielder, since you always get outnumbered, because the wingers and the amc doesnt drop deep, when the opposition has the ball and since its very easy, that a striker can outplay a center back, you get massive problem and face a lot ccc. i mean, clubs dont play the 4231 without a reason. they want to profit from a very attacking amc and prefer 2 holding midfielders, who cover for him, since he isnt well at defending, but in fm, you cant have success defensively, without not having this triangle 1dmc 2cm. and its just boring, to always play only 41212 or 41221...

 

[DMuusers]

Yeah I did. I promoted from the C2/C to the Serie A consecutively. Though I had some luck of course. DMs are set up as Defensive Midfielder and Anchorman. AMC is Advanced playmaker and the two wingers are inside forwards.

 

[Uygar89]

Yeah I did. I promoted from the C2/C to the Serie A consecutively. Though I had some luck of course. DMs are set up as Defensive Midfielder and Anchorman. AMC is Advanced playmaker and the two wingers are inside forwards.

how did you set up the marking settings for the the dmcs, amc and wingers?
do your dmcs close down a lot or just standing off?
would be really nice, since i want them to hold their positions in front of the backline and not to drift wide to close down a winger or someone else, since then i get outplayed immediately.

 

[Frank from Poland]

I've build 2 successful tactics with deep 4-2-3-1, in two versions:
1. with MC - in Hajduk Split from Croatia, with which I've won 4 times consecutively the Croatian league, 3 times Croatian Trophy and played in Champions League, once even ending second in group phase,
2. with AMC - in Betis Sevilla, which has been promoted to La Liga in first season, and during three seasons more I've established nice, mid-table team, which played once in Europa Leage

I didn't have problems with being outnumbered in defence - more problems I've had with my attack. I used two holding DM's, one with deep lying midfielder role and support duty, second one with anchor man role and obviously defend duty. Supporting one had more creative freedom which was allowing him to raom from his position and was closing down the oposition players, by marking man. Anchor man was marking zonal. One of my wingers (AML) had some defensive duties and support role. Meanwhile, DL has been asked to attack more - cooperation between them was nice, they've been switching their position with each other what coused some problems to the oposition. MC or AMC had an attack role, but I've lowered his mentality, so he wasn't concentrating on attack only. Both my teams with deep 4-2-3-1 formation were playing fluid, standard / control strategy with high def line (which made the hole between holding DMs and att mids smaller) and offside traps.

If the problem with outnumbering Your side by the oposition is caused by lack of marking by Your wingers, tell them to man mark the oposion wingers / side midfielders, so they will go back and mark them. Your DS's can mark zonal then, which allows them not to focus on specific players and should help going forward to support more attacking players. One of DM's can be man marker and other one - zonal. Good solution also is to tell Your AMC / MC to mark zonal, close down often and mark tightly. Concerning about DC's - I use two classic central defenders with defend duty, both closing down quite often and tight marking. The difference between them is that the defender who plays behind the zonal marking anchor man (better and quicker one) is marking man and DC who is playing behind deep lying playmaker (weaker or slower defender) marks zonal.

But generally speaking, what I've noticed is that in FM 11, the best defence is attack. The best tactics with least goals down are the most attacking ones. I was trying to copy Mourinho's aproach from f.e. games between his Inter and Barcelona, but my observation is that if You try to play defensively, You will finally lose, even You manage better side.

I hope my english is good enough to understand my post=)

 

[Uygar89]

I've build 2 successful tactics with deep 4-2-3-1, in two versions:
1. with MC - in Hajduk Split from Croatia, with which I've won 4 times consecutively the Croatian league, 3 times Croatian Trophy and played in Champions League, once even ending second in group phase,
2. with AMC - in Betis Sevilla, which has been promoted to La Liga in first season, and during three seasons more I've established nice, mid-table team, which played once in Europa Leage

I didn't have problems with being outnumbered in defence - more problems I've had with my attack. I used two holding DM's, one with deep lying midfielder role and support duty, second one with anchor man role and obviously defend duty. Supporting one had more creative freedom which was allowing him to raom from his position and was closing down the oposition players, by marking man. Anchor man was marking zonal. One of my wingers (AML) had some defensive duties and support role. Meanwhile, DL has been asked to attack more - cooperation between them was nice, they've been switching their position with each other what coused some problems to the oposition. MC or AMC had an attack role, but I've lowered his mentality, so he wasn't concentrating on attack only. Both my teams with deep 4-2-3-1 formation were playing fluid, standard / control strategy with high def line (which made the hole between holding DMs and att mids smaller) and offside traps.

If the problem with outnumbering Your side by the oposition is caused by lack of marking by Your wingers, tell them to man mark the oposion wingers / side midfielders, so they will go back and mark them. Your DS's can mark zonal then, which allows them not to focus on specific players and should help going forward to support more attacking players. One of DM's can be man marker and other one - zonal. Good solution also is to tell Your AMC / MC to mark zonal, close down often and mark tightly. Concerning about DC's - I use two classic central defenders with defend duty, both closing down quite often and tight marking. The difference between them is that the defender who plays behind the zonal marking anchor man (better and quicker one) is marking man and DC who is playing behind deep lying playmaker (weaker or slower defender) marks zonal.

I hope my english is good enough to understand my post=)

hey, you brought me to an idea with one man marking and the other zonal marking. perhaps this could solve my problem, since it really sounds logically.

 

[Frank from Poland]

I hope it will help You. When I'll be at home, I will try to send You my tactics, both from Hajduk and Betis (I said I will try, becouse I'm new here and don't know exactly how to do this). They were not such masterpieces as some from fm-base, but I don't have so many free time to spend on FM as many other (probably younger) FM players. And - as I said - I've had some really nice achievments with that tactics, especially playing in Croatia.