Away game tactic - how to control and win against the weaker sides?

[LazarusLong]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently reaching the end of my first season with Manchester United with an updated transfer database.
I've been trying to use a tactic similar to LVG's current 4-2-3-1 and had mixed results, mostly it seems i just can't control and properly win a game away against the weaker premier league's sides.

At the beginning of the game i already conceded i can't use my attacking 4-2-3-1 away from home as it seems my players would not score and i will concede on the counter.
For away games against top teams i use a 4-1-2-2-1 variation (a controlling 4-3-3) and i have around 50-50 success ratio with it, but it's not attacking enough for games i'm expected to win away.

I'm currently trying this 4-2-3-1 variation with Control and Fluid:

Sweeper GK
FB(S) CD(D) CD(D) FB(S)
CM(D) DLP(D)
Winger(S) AP-A IF-A
CF(S)

Team instructions:

Retain Possession
Shorter Passing
Play From Defense
Play Narrower
Push Higher Up
Close Down More
Stay On Feet
Use Tighter Marking
Use Offside Trap
Lower Tempo


Results has been not very impressive. I seem to control games but definitely not scoring enough and only rarely keep a clean sheets.
I've tried different variations but nothing seems to improve my away form.

Some thoughts:
1) Drop Deeper to pull the opposition out and create more space - every time i tried these instruction i conceded 1-2 goals in the opening 15 minutes. It seems my defense would just sit inside my box and watch the opposition attack relentlessly.

2) Get Stuck In - even with Stay On Feet it seems i will concede from a set piece 1 in every 2 games.

3) The squad - my squad is very young and definitely don't have a world class center back. It could just be the case of available players i guess.


Does anyone have any idea how to make the 4-2-3-1 work away against the small-medium teams?

Thank you!

 

[WJ]

Remove most of the 300 TIs. You're making the tactic much, much worse.

Looking at roles and duties, it's not a very aggressive tactic, is it? Both fullbacks are staying back. In fact, you're only relying on the IF bursting forward or the CF/S dribbling through a packed defence.

 

[LazarusLong]

Remove most of the 300 TIs. You're making the tactic much, much worse.

Looking at roles and duties, it's not a very aggressive tactic, is it? Both fullbacks are staying back. In fact, you're only relying on the IF bursting forward or the CF/S dribbling through a packed defence.

When i played more aggressively i leaked 1-2 goals every away game.
I'm trying to find the correct balance unsuccessfully ..

What are, in your opinion the critical team instructions to use?

 

[WJ]

What are, in your opinion the critical team instructions to use?

Whatever you need. Add them only if you actually need them. Your role/duty setup isn't horrible, but you're massively slowing down play, making it dead easy to defend against.

 

[LazarusLong]

Whatever you need. Add them only if you actually need them. Your role/duty setup isn't horrible, but you're massively slowing down play, making it dead easy to defend against.

Thanks, that's a good tip!
Any idea how can i improve defending? a clean sheet once in a while would be a nice thing

 

[WJ]

Thanks, that's a good tip!
Any idea how can i improve defending? a clean sheet once in a while would be a nice thing

Have a look at what's actually wrong with the defending. Also pay attention to how much your front 4 players are contributing defensively and if it is affecting your defending capabilities.

 

[LazarusLong]

Have a look at what's actually wrong with the defending. Also pay attention to how much your front 4 players are contributing defensively and if it is affecting your defending capabilities.

1) What's wrong - well they basically just suck
My opponents gets 10-15 shots off a game and i can't find any way to bring that number down.

2) 4 Attacking players are not contributing too much actually, any PI i should use perhaps?

 

[WJ]

1) What's wrong - well they basically just suck
My opponents gets 10-15 shots off a game and i can't find any way to bring that number down.

2) 4 Attacking players are not contributing too much actually, any PI i should use perhaps?

1) This being the tactical forum, 'they just suck' means nothing of value. Start with removing most of the TIs and adding only what you SEE you need and if you actually understand what the TIs do.

2) No. Pull them back to the M strata then. Anyway, Attack duties will contribute less anyway. That's part of what an Attack duty should do at AM L/C/R.

 

[LazarusLong]

1) This being the tactical forum, 'they just suck' means nothing of value. Start with removing most of the TIs and adding only what you SEE you need and if you actually understand what the TIs do.

Lol, you are definitely correct.
What i was trying to say - there isn't one type of attack i'm susceptible to.
Sometimes i'll concede on a counter, sometimes it's a cross from deep and an unmarked striker and other times it seems like the opponent striker will have a Messi-esque performance.
It seems though as a AMC-ST partnership will usually cause my center backs to get out of position and leave the striker or AMC unmarked.

2) No. Pull them back to the M strata then. Anyway, Attack duties will contribute less anyway. That's part of what an Attack duty should do at AM L/C/R.

My wide players are not the winger types, basically all of them cut inside. What will be the best role to bring a good attacking performance on the wide midfielder positions?

 

[WJ]

Lol, you are definitely correct.
What i was trying to say - there isn't one type of attack i'm susceptible to.
Sometimes i'll concede on a counter, sometimes it's a cross from deep and an unmarked striker and other times it seems like the opponent striker will have a Messi-esque performance.
It seems though as a AMC-ST partnership will usually cause my center backs to get out of position and leave the striker or AMC unmarked.

All of this sounds like the opposition players are just far too open. A combination, perhaps of 6 players being deep and 4 high and the additional closing down settings making it worse. Once they get past your front 4, there should be lots of space to use, and fluid (splitting the team into 2 groups, mentality wise) makes this even worse - although only slightly.

My wide players are not the winger types, basically all of them cut inside. What will be the best role to bring a good attacking performance on the wide midfielder positions?

A Wide Midfielder can be asked to cut inside. A Wide Midfielder can be asked to do most/all of what an Inside Forward can. Don't Wide Playmakers cut inside too? There are more roles than simply wingers.

 

[LazarusLong]

Thank you WJ, i'm going to try a 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 tactic later today with a little more aggressive instructions (but less TIs). thanks again!

 

[WJ]

Thank you WJ, i'm going to try a 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 tactic later today with a little more aggressive instructions (but less TIs). thanks again!

I still think your biggest issue were the TIs, not the formation. You're also going to have a hard time breaking down defensive teams with only 4 attacking players vs their entire defence, which could be double that number.

The TIs made it all worse though, by reducing through balls, passing range (so reducing passing options) and a low tempo.

 

[markhall92]

The TIs are actually quite important if you want to control games. Being in possession of the ball will obviously help you control matches, so using the TIs that reflect will help you get the results you want. Also, I often find it easier to use CWB (attack) instead of FB, and use IF (attack) on both sides left and right, giving you more attacking intent.

 

[Igneos79]

I would also advise a look at fluidity and mentality...if you are trying to control or attack, it could prove useful if you overloaded their third with more players joining the attack. However, at the same time, that would make you very, very susceptible to counters, which is probably what weaker teams focus on against you, and you conceede. With higher fluidity, you ask your players to do more. If you ask your fullback to do more with higher fluidity, he will also join the attack, and you will be left with only 2 defenders at the back, meaning you will be susceptible to quick counters on the flanks, or even through the middle, depending on whether or not you are marking all of opositions strikers. You may want to use a more structured approach when playing more agressively in order to keep your fullbacks in line with your defence, to guard from counters, and also give space to your players at the same time. Or you may, which might even be a better idea, use a less agressive mentality, and use a more fluid approach, so your forward players track back to help defence. Very fluid wouldn't fit your 4231, but a fluid approach might give them enough space, while having more players focused on halping defence, so perhaps a counter mentality would fit nicely.