Can't buy a win away - Tactical failure or engine failure?

[NobleMan]

So I'm coming to the end of my first season as West Ham in FM2017, after racking up 400 hours on FM2014 15 and 16. I've always gone down the possession route in FM games and it's working fine at home, but I'm really struggling to find a winning formula for away games, as the results show.

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This is the home tactic I'm currently using. I also try to use this tactic away against weaker teams, but tend to play a bit narrower and restrict how much the FBs venture forward, and make sure I generally have a flat back four.

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Opted for no DM in the end as lacking an AMC seems to drastically reduce the amount of chances we create and when I've tried it we've gotten stats like 4 shots with 1 on target.

Here is the tactic I made for playing away to equal or stronger teams.

View attachment 107327

Gone narrow on this one as the wingers tend to run into cul-de-sacs without support from the FBs, but keeping 3 players constantly forward produces some good counterattacking opportunities.

The players seem very sluggish and dopey away from home, misplacing simple passes, losing their man constantly, running into the opposition. I've been watching away games on comprehensive to see what the trouble seems to be, and more often than not we concede ridiculous goals from simple mistakes, against much weaker sides. I've heard similar complains about this year's FM so how much is my fault and how much is just the way FM17 plays now, I'm not sure of either.

But, tactically, I'm pretty much at the end of my rope as far as away games go, lacking any new ideas as I'm not fully understanding the problem.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[WJ]

This is the home tactic I'm currently using. I also try to use this tactic away against weaker teams, but tend to play a bit narrower and restrict how much the FBs venture forward, and make sure I generally have a flat back four.

View attachment 1101217

How are you restricting the FBs' movements? Because this screenshot shows you want them to make lots of runs forward.

Not only that, but the balance seems off. Your DLP is covering the less aggressive fullback? That leaves a gaping hole on the left.

Opted for no DM in the end as lacking an AMC seems to drastically reduce the amount of chances we create and when I've tried it we've gotten stats like 4 shots with 1 on target.

That's all in how you set up. You can play a 4-1-4-1 and still be very attacking with several good, quality shots.

Here is the tactic I made for playing away to equal or stronger teams.

View attachment 1101218

Gone narrow on this one as the wingers tend to run into cul-de-sacs without support from the FBs, but keeping 3 players constantly forward produces some good counterattacking opportunities.

This is strange. So the other tactic has maybe 2 players not much involved in defending. Against stronger teams, you opt for 3 players not defending? You're also leaving 2 players utterly alone in midfield. You may want a possession game, but you're making it easy for teams to keep possession against you.

The players seem very sluggish and dopey away from home, misplacing simple passes, losing their man constantly, running into the opposition. I've been watching away games on comprehensive to see what the trouble seems to be, and more often than not we concede ridiculous goals from simple mistakes, against much weaker sides. I've heard similar complains about this year's FM so how much is my fault and how much is just the way FM17 plays now, I'm not sure of either.

It's not the game, but how you set up. If players are misplacing passes you can improve that. If they seem sluggish and dopey, whatever that means, you can improve that. There's a lot wrong here, but you should start with forming an idea (if there isn't one) of how you want to play and why you've chosen the roles and TIs you have. If you can post that, we can get somewhere. It's going to be absolutely key to get the AMC right as he links the midfield to your attack.

But think of how you're using the ball. If Lanzini gets the ball, what do you want him to do? Where should the other players be and what do they need to do? Repeat that for the other players too.

 

[NobleMan]

How are you restricting the FBs' movements? Because this screenshot shows you want them to make lots of runs forward.

In that screenshot, yes. When playing that away I tend to set one FB to defend and the other to support, depending on which flank I feel the opposition is weaker. I neglected to get a screenshot of that.

It's not the game, but how you set up. If players are misplacing passes you can improve that. If they seem sluggish and dopey, whatever that means, you can improve that. There's a lot wrong here, but you should start with forming an idea (if there isn't one) of how you want to play and why you've chosen the roles and TIs you have. If you can post that, we can get somewhere. It's going to be absolutely key to get the AMC right as he links the midfield to your attack.

Right, so let's do that. I've got three games remaining in the season, Chelsea away, Tottenham away, and Man City home on the final day, so I've built this with all three of those in mind.

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I've gone with a standard mentality as I'm expecting all three teams to be very dangerous in possession and don't want my FBs and midfielders to be getting forward quite as much as they might in a more offensive style.

Flexible mentality because I want solid shape at the back but some freedom of movement in the final third.

Bearing in mind what you said I've switched my DLP (D) to the left side to cover Masuaku and left Arbeloa on defend duty. Lanzini as an AP (S) so he holds his position a little more and (ideally) finds himself in space to receive the ball more often than he would on attack duty.

Retain Possession as I'm looking to play a possession based game, Pass Into Space as I'm wanting Ayew and Antonio to be running onto diagonals beyond the opposition FBs rather than taking it to feet.

I've tried to set up the wingers and the striker to press their back line and force them to play longer balls into my midfield, so I've set Antonio and Ayew to close down more, but not "much more" as I don't want to draw them away from their position too much, Berahino also playing as an AF so he chases down loose passes naturally. I've also set prevent short GK distribution and play narrower. My idea is that my front three will chase down defenders and the GK forcing them to put hopeful balls into the center of the park more often, where possession can be regained and recycled by the players I'm congesting the midfield with.

In an attacking sense, I'm looking for Lanzini to receive the ball in space, hold it up for a moment or two and then look for a run from one of the wingers or the striker. To this end I've given him orders to Hold Up Ball, and told Antonio to get further forward when we're in possession.

I'm envisioning an ideal attack to go from the GK, who has instructions to roll it out, then from Ogbonna or Masuaku into Noble, from Noble either directly to Lanzini or back to an onrushing Masuaku to play it forward. After Lanzini receives it I expect him to pause and give the wingers a chance to line up their runs, where hopefully Antonio can get beyond the LB and play either a cutback to Lanzini in space, a whipped ball to Berahino, or a far-post cross for Ayew to attack.

 

[WJ]

Retain Possession as I'm looking to play a possession based game

You make it sound like it's a button that just adds 10% possession to whoever selects it. What does a possession based game mean in actual, practical terms? What does that Instruction do?

I ask because:

Pass Into Space as I'm wanting Ayew and Antonio to be running onto diagonals beyond the opposition FBs rather than taking it to feet.

You adding this, means you're looking for risks taken with passes into space, which isn't very possession-like.

I've tried to set up the wingers and the striker to press their back line and force them to play longer balls into my midfield, so I've set Antonio and Ayew to close down more, but not "much more" as I don't want to draw them away from their position too much, Berahino also playing as an AF so he chases down loose passes naturally. I've also set prevent short GK distribution and play narrower. My idea is that my front three will chase down defenders and the GK forcing them to put hopeful balls into the center of the park more often, where possession can be regained and recycled by the players I'm congesting the midfield with.

In an attacking sense, I'm looking for Lanzini to receive the ball in space, hold it up for a moment or two and then look for a run from one of the wingers or the striker. To this end I've given him orders to Hold Up Ball, and told Antonio to get further forward when we're in possession.

I'm envisioning an ideal attack to go from the GK, who has instructions to roll it out, then from Ogbonna or Masuaku into Noble, from Noble either directly to Lanzini or back to an onrushing Masuaku to play it forward. After Lanzini receives it I expect him to pause and give the wingers a chance to line up their runs, where hopefully Antonio can get beyond the LB and play either a cutback to Lanzini in space, a whipped ball to Berahino, or a far-post cross for Ayew to attack.

It'll be a rare thing to see cut-backs to Lanzini. He's going to be too deep (although PPMs may influence it; I don't know what he has) to even semi-regularly receive cut-backs.

There rest seem viable, but careful of just a one dimensional tactic of 2 wingers sitting very wide, crossing it to a lone striker. You'll need to watch this.

I also wonder about your left flank. You're basically completely vacating it.

 

[NobleMan]

You make it sound like it's a button that just adds 10% possession to whoever selects it. What does a possession based game mean in actual, practical terms? What does that Instruction do?

I ask because:
You adding this, means you're looking for risks taken with passes into space, which isn't very possession-like.

Right, I see where you're coming from. I'm looking to utilise my winger's speed to run in behind, so for that reason I've selected pass into space so the midfield will search them out with a diagonal rather than expecting them to take it past their man most of the time. Perhaps shorter passing rather than retain possession? Because I'm wondering if the squad has enough quality on the ball to play a walk-it-in game.

There rest seem viable, but careful of just a one dimensional tactic of 2 wingers sitting very wide, crossing it to a lone striker. You'll need to watch this.

I also wonder about your left flank. You're basically completely vacating it.

I've actually just taken the tactic you see above and played two matches with it. 1-1 at Chelsea which I'm happy with, 3-2 loss at Spurs but two of the three we conceded were horrible errors from the GK, so I can't fault the tactic so much.

It seems to be a lot better at countering than it is attacking outright, moving the ball very nicely at a good tempo and the wingers are finding plenty of space to run into. What would you recommend for adding another dimension to the attack? I was considering replacing the BWM with a box-to-box or putting Lanzini on attack duty, Ayew on support to cover the flank, but giving Lanzini instructions to close down a little less to try and keep him in position.

 

[WJ]

Right, I see where you're coming from. I'm looking to utilise my winger's speed to run in behind, so for that reason I've selected pass into space so the midfield will search them out with a diagonal rather than expecting them to take it past their man most of the time. Perhaps shorter passing rather than retain possession? Because I'm wondering if the squad has enough quality on the ball to play a walk-it-in game..

What does retain possession do?

 

[NobleMan]

What does retain possession do?

Well one would assume it instructs the team that keeping possession is the goal, rather than necessarily doing something with that possession. Backpasses, sideways balls, probing until a clear opportunity for a forward pass presents itself.

 

[Devon96]

logo's

Nobleman,

This is a bit of topic but can I ask you how you downloaded the logo's of the teams?

Thank you

 

[WJ]

Well one would assume it instructs the team that keeping possession is the goal, rather than necessarily doing something with that possession. Backpasses, sideways balls, probing until a clear opportunity for a forward pass presents itself.

All it does is to shorten passing and reduce passes into space for all players. You putting passes into space 'back' means that all you're doing is shortening passing.

If you want your players to take fewer risks in what they're doing, you need to lower Mentality as that is a risk modifier.

 

[vasilli07]

Nobleman,

This is a bit of topic but can I ask you how you downloaded the logo's of the teams?

Thank you

[video=youtube;N7CdrRlcCSU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7CdrRlcCSU[/video]

 

[NobleMan]

All it does is to shorten passing and reduce passes into space for all players. You putting passes into space 'back' means that all you're doing is shortening passing.

If you want your players to take fewer risks in what they're doing, you need to lower Mentality as that is a risk modifier.

Right, yeah. I've done a little experimenting with the tactic through my pre-season and seem to have come to a decent balance now. Decided to switch the attacking FB onto the right side and have my LB defend. Also removed the retain possession instruction after I'd buffed up my midfield with some more creative players.

And the results are starting to look a little better away from home.

View attachment 107001

Performances have been much better all-round, still holding well over 50% possession, and they're going about their attacks the way I intended, and creating a lot more of them. I think perhaps I'd been working in a certain way so long in FM15 and FM16 that I was just putting the same old formula together and wondering why it wasn't working.

So, thanks for your help.

 

[totalfooty]

Hi
So as a sort of "review", what exactly did you change then to get better away results as i have horrendous away form in my save with 3 away games to finish the season and i need to win them in order to gain promotion!