Defensive solidarity for my Goal Machine tactic

[wicksy360]

Hello all,

Thank you for taking the time to come and read my thread.

I have been using the following tactic in my Liverpool save, a very attacking and top heavy 4-2-3-1.
View attachment 78752

I am scoring A LOT of goals, as would be expected. I was trying to create something that would allow my main striker to flourish, and so far my new main man Icardi, is doing extremely well as you can see:
View attachment 78750

The plan i had seems to be being executed: For the striker and shadow striker to get forward, whilst the inside forwards come narrow and supply them. The shadow striker will get into the box, but will also look to create for the main man. Width provided by overlapping full backs.

I am having very good results with this, however you will notice the one issue i am having...
View attachment 78749

We cannot seem to stop conceding goals. I admit i am maybe being picky, and that whilst winning and scoring so much i should be happy. But as a Liverpool fan myself, i know that constant pressing and outscoring the opposition wont always last, so i wanted to make myself a bit more solid. I have created a tactic just like Jurgen himself, however, i have also made a mockery of our defence.

Please could someone recommend what they would change to shore up the tactic a little, without detrimenting the potent attack too badly?

 

[Bigpapa42]

Well, where exactly are you expecting defensive stability to come from? Look at your formation - who is defending? Who is providing cover? You have 4 players well forward, who don't contribute much at all defensively. You have two wide defenders who are both attacking. And who is covering for the defense - no holding player and the DLP isn't a true defensive role and the Carrilero can only do so much...? Your shape creates defensive problems by itself and the roles and duties add to that.

A key aspect to your problem is identified right there on your screen cap. You turn over possession in central midfield a lot. Which makes sense - you are playing Attacking and Higher Tempo, so you are asking your players to make fairly risky passes and a high tempo. Even very good players will make mistakes. And when a mistake is made and your opposition wins back the ball, who is defending? Your two central defenders. Your DLP only provides so much cover, the Carrilero will try to cover horizontally to some degree, and your wide defenders are both going to be quite forward. Its pretty open to counters. Add in a high defensive line and space in the midfield and you are also susceptible to balls over the top. I would actually be a bit surprised if you aren't being found out at times.

There are a huge number of options for you to try to add some defensive solidity. It just depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice in attack. It can be as simple as pulling your two wingers back into the midfield strata - they will add a bit more defensively by dropping deeper and starting from deeper.

 

[wicksy360]

Thank you for the quick response!

I have played FM for several years, and so upon looking at it, i also have no idea why this has been working for me! I normally used slightly different midfield roles, but found it not to work for me.

I would prefer not to move the wingers down, as both Salah and Mane are very poor in these positions, and retraining them will take a while, leaving me with Coutinho and Oxlade-chamberlain to play as inverted wingers/cut inside wide midfielders.

Do you think moving my full backs onto a more supporting duty would help slightly, or they would interfere with the IFs? Also, what roles do you think are most suitable for the midfield 2? I am not adverse to moving them back to the DM strata if necessary.

I did get caught out vs City and Shakhtar! Was very lucky to scrape a 3-3 in the last second and shakhtar were 3-0 up and seemed to then go defensive and invite me onto them.

 

[Average Joe]

Thank you for the quick response!

I have played FM for several years, and so upon looking at it, i also have no idea why this has been working for me! I normally used slightly different midfield roles, but found it not to work for me.

I would prefer not to move the wingers down, as both Salah and Mane are very poor in these positions, and retraining them will take a while, leaving me with Coutinho and Oxlade-chamberlain to play as inverted wingers/cut inside wide midfielders.

Do you think moving my full backs onto a more supporting duty would help slightly, or they would interfere with the IFs? Also, what roles do you think are most suitable for the midfield 2? I am not adverse to moving them back to the DM strata if necessary.

I did get caught out vs City and Shakhtar! Was very lucky to scrape a 3-3 in the last second and shakhtar were 3-0 up and seemed to then go defensive and invite me onto them.

First thing I was going to say was to change the full back settings. Looking on your player stats they don't seem to actually be getting the final assist often or any goals so do they need to be on attack? I'd at least pop them on to support duty.

Maybe change the defensive line down a notch or two and see what changes after a few games.

Also maybe try a stopper / cover partnership with the central defenders.

Don't change too much too fast, wait and see after a while what you need to change with the CMs.

Is the tactic fluid? Do you pre match train for defensive positioning?

 

[wicksy360]

First thing I was going to say was to change the full back settings. Looking on your player stats they don't seem to actually be getting the final assist often or any goals so do they need to be on attack? I'd at least pop them on to support duty.

Maybe change the defensive line down a notch or two and see what changes after a few games.

Also maybe try a stopper / cover partnership with the central defenders.

Don't change too much too fast, wait and see after a while what you need to change with the CMs.

Is the tactic fluid? Do you pre match train for defensive positioning?

I have been trialling a stopper/ cover combo, with the stopper just behind the Carrilero and this seems to have made me a bit more solid, but obviously there are still gaps in my system.

If i make my Wide defenders support duties, do you think i should use wing backs, and set my IFs to be more narrow, so they dont get in each others way? I don't hugely notice the difference between the Wing back and the Full back i have on each side, so which role do you believe is most suitable? In my opinion it is the wing backs, but if they are pushing up higher, this again may lead to too many gaps being not covered in my defensive line.

The tactic is structured not fluid if that is what you mean? I will run a few test games with a lower D Line (although this may negatively impact my super aggressive press?) and i will also trial the two wide defender options, see which is solid but not too blunted offensively.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Its actually impressive how much you have emulated Klopp's Liverpool - great attacking sometimes but defensive lapses just as much. Not surprised that it does well in an attacking sense - you have 4 players forward, fairly risky passing (from the mentality), high tempo, press, and push up.

I notice few matches where just a couple of goals were scored. Do you find that you sometimes come up against a low block that you struggle to break down? A team parks the bus? This is where being very aggressive and pushing up in numbers can work against you at times, even if you don't get countered. Being less forward and attacking can sometimes help in that regard, as weird as that sounds.

As Joe says, don't change everything. Pick something and try it for a couple of matches.

To clarify what can change, your defensive problems are due to your formation, your roles and duties, and your Team Instructions. All of these contribute. So one change might not make a massive difference, but gotta pick and choose. Moving the fullbacks down to support will help. A wingback will be a bit higher in a defensive sense so as long as your players there are pacey, you probably don't need to drop them all the way to fullbacks. But it could still have an attacking impact - even if they aren't actually creating assists, they might still be key parts of attacking moves as they provide a lot of your width, since the two wingers both move inside. And unless most of your goals are coming from the wing, it won't prevent all the goals. Just look at the green space around your two MCs - you are ceding that territory to the opposition. No single move changes all of that. Having the wide defenders on support keeps them from being as aggressive going forward, but they are still going to get doubled up on by attacking players at times. Add a DM, move the wingers back a strata, don't push your defenders as high up, make an MC more defensive.... multiple options. Again, pretty much all of those moves will have an impact on your attack.

This might work, depending on when you are conceding. But if you go up a goal or two, switch to a more defensive approach for the last portion of the match. Don't necessarily go outright defensive, but a more defensively stable formation with a tactical sub or two.

 

[wicksy360]

Its actually impressive how much you have emulated Klopp's Liverpool - great attacking sometimes but defensive lapses just as much. Not surprised that it does well in an attacking sense - you have 4 players forward, fairly risky passing (from the mentality), high tempo, press, and push up.

I have tried a few different things, and all seemed to benefit myself in defensive sense, whilst obviously taking away from the attack a little. I currently have a stopper cover combo in CBs, and changed the wide backs to wing backs on support.

Seems to have had a good impact in my last two games as you can see:
View attachment 78638

Man united didnt even have a single shot on target! (Although one was a CCC that hit the post, from my WBs missing a tackle and the cover coming across leaving a gap)
View attachment 78637

EDIT: The red card came in the 85th minute, when i was 2-0 up, so did not impact the fact they couldn't beat the press

What do you think about reducing crosses from my full backs, as it seems i win very few (5/29 in this game)

Will keep tinkering, thank you for all of your suggestions!

 

[JP Chenet]

I think ultimately your best option is to have a second tactic to secure your result once you're happy with your lead. You have a winning tactic and I'm guessing all is good amongst the players - why upset that? You may just end up spoiling an attacking tactic and effecting the dressing room. May be you'll have to manage your career like Klopp and accept that's your teams style of play - end of!

 

[wicksy360]

I think ultimately your best option is to have a second tactic to secure your result once you're happy with your lead. You have a winning tactic and I'm guessing all is good amongst the players - why upset that? You may just end up spoiling an attacking tactic and effecting the dressing room. May be you'll have to manage your career like Klopp and accept that's your teams style of play - end of!

Yeah most players are happy and performing well (Matip is averaging a 7.96, glad i didnt sell him to Spurs!). However some players are unhappy in very Klopp-esque fashion. Coutinho is settled, as hes fairly unwanted due to his form not being the best, however Firmino and Mane are angling for moves away. Firmino wants to go if PSG offer 77m, but i convinced Mane that our youngsters can make us as good as Real Madrid (fool!).

But as the tactic goes, since switching the wing backs to support and CBs to stopper and cover, things have got a lot more solid, if less spectacular up front.

I have kept the original as a tactic if i need a goal towards the end of a game, and think i will take your advice and make a tactic suitably for wasting time in order to hold out for a win.

 

[Beansy]

Hello all,

Thank you for taking the time to come and read my thread.

I have been using the following tactic in my Liverpool save, a very attacking and top heavy 4-2-3-1.
View attachment 1132839

I am scoring A LOT of goals, as would be expected. I was trying to create something that would allow my main striker to flourish, and so far my new main man Icardi, is doing extremely well as you can see:
View attachment 1132841

The plan i had seems to be being executed: For the striker and shadow striker to get forward, whilst the inside forwards come narrow and supply them. The shadow striker will get into the box, but will also look to create for the main man. Width provided by overlapping full backs.

I am having very good results with this, however you will notice the one issue i am having...
View attachment 1132842

We cannot seem to stop conceding goals. I admit i am maybe being picky, and that whilst winning and scoring so much i should be happy. But as a Liverpool fan myself, i know that constant pressing and outscoring the opposition wont always last, so i wanted to make myself a bit more solid. I have created a tactic just like Jurgen himself, however, i have also made a mockery of our defence.

Please could someone recommend what they would change to shore up the tactic a little, without detrimenting the potent attack too badly?

Looks like a good tactic, can you provide a download link?

 

[wicksy360]

Looks like a good tactic, can you provide a download link?

I think i have attached the tactic here. View attachment 78410

Here is a picture of my recent results though, defence is having a tough time still, and it struggles in european competition.
View attachment 78409

I think it works for me as it allows my good attackers to flourish, so not sure it would work for lesser teams.

 

[Margent]

I played almost the same tactic with Liverpool and struggled for a 4th position in the leage after the first half season. Then I made some changes, won the CL and now I am in top of the PL the second season.

First of all I would fix the back four:

1. Play Robertson instead of Moreno.
2. Buy a defender with good pace and play next to Matip. It doesn't need to be an expensive one, John Brooks or Kostas Manolas will do great. Play Matip as (cover).
3. Both full backs should be "Full Back - support". Don't use "get further forward". Instead, tell them to cross from deeper positions (in that way they will contribute in attacks without getting out of position).
4. On all four players at the back - use "close down much less". This will keep the shape. (I suppose that you play with a high defensive line and a lot of closing down as TI).

In the midfield:
Change both roles to ball winning midfielders with one as (defend) and one as (support). The supporting one could "get further forward". You can also try box-to-box instead of BWM (support).

The only way to beat this is with long balls at Aguero.