Pep's 3 at back, Libero tweak - need help

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peligroso

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So, did anyone watch Saturday's City-Chelsea game? Even tough Chelsea won, I was intrigued by how Pep decided to play. I'm a fan of 3 at back tactics, and I admit I'm a bit of football hipster as well, so an idea crossed my mind. Why shouldn't I try to create a similar tactic, but with one obvious exception:the guy in the middle of back 3 should be Libero.

So, first of all, let's see City's formation against Chelsea. Or at least how I saw it.

View attachment 115670

3 in line at back with Kolarov on the left with a stopper duty. Sane and Navas on the wings playing wide, looking to stretch the play as much as possible allowing De Bruyne and Silva in front more free role, roaming and ultimately freedom to create. Fernandinho and Gundogan as holding midfielders. Kun Aguero acting as a false nine.

Now, how can I recreate this tactic and add a libero to it?

So I gave it a try.


The formation:

View attachment 115684

The Idea was for our Libero to Join the attack, Wingers to spread the play, holding midfielders to offer protection and passing options with the midfielder on the left with dlp/s role and two players behind the striker to have more freedom.

Here are some more screenshots:

team instructions

View attachment 115682


player instructions:

gk
View attachment 115681

libero
View attachment 115680

central defenders
View attachment 115679

wingers
View attachment 115678

bwm
View attachment 115677

dlp
View attachment 115676

attacking midfielder
View attachment 115675

advanced playmaker
View attachment 115674

striker
View attachment 115673

as you can see, tactic is still not fully trained.
View attachment 115672It is still early in the season, but I'm not convinced. We dominate possession and stuff, but we are not as solid at back as I would have liked. I'm under impression that our two cb's are two wide apart when libero goes forward. Also, wingers had attack duty, but I changed it to support as I was afraid of being too vulnerable from wings.

As you can see, most of the goals we received were assisted from wing.
View attachment 115671



So, bearing in mind all above, what would you do? How would you tweak the tactic?
I don't usually play with sides as strong as Man City, but I started a save with them as this tactic was inspired by their tactic and as they had enough money for me to bring Bonnucci as he is a perfect player for libero role.
I wanted perfect conditions this time, so I don't have the excuse for failing to create this.

Here's a download link if someone wants to try it.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/hxqb17







I would really appreciate if you guys would help me with this one. Cheers!
 
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You will find that opposition will keep making diagonal balls behind your wingers trying to stretch the back three. Not sure how to counter this maybe play deep line?

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They only way I can see that working is to play a very deep defensive line with a counter attacking mentality, where your front players will need to be quick. Otherwise, you're two central defenders are going to be left trying to cover the full width of the pitch on their own which will make them easy to pick off with both short passing triangles and long diagonal passes. You will constantly be vulnerable on the wings and especially to crosses.

If you were to pull the wingers back into the Wing Back positions, so it becomes more of a 5-2-2-1, you might have the basis for something to tinker further - perhaps one on Support, the other on Attack. In FM14, I had a 3-5-2 formation that worked well with my Southampton team that had a Ball-Playing Defender between two centre backs, but all three of them in the D(C) line. The wide positions were Wide Midfielder_Support and I had the best player in the world - official, Ballon d'Or, etc - in the middle as an Advanced Playmaker_Attack. I got picked off in the channels from time-to-time but my team was so good in possession that we generally overwhelmed the opposition (...which I think is part of Guardiola's philosophy). The BPD was Diego Reyes, the Mexican, who is also a midfielder so very good on the ball. He would step out of the defensive line on occasions to form a temporary 6-man midfield, which helps other players to find space while their markers try to engage the man on the ball.
 
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I've been playing with the Libero a fair bit and there's a few tips I've picked up.

First things first, when Liberos were effective, teams sat a lot deeper.

If you are playing two holding midfielders, plus a high line, there isn't anywhere for the Libero to go and he ends up making short passes to Fernando and Gundogan who then prioritise getting the ball to the advanced playmakers annnnd you've lost your Libero.

Think about it, your line gets the ball just inside your own half, the Libero takes three strides forward and he is on top of deep lying midfielders, three more and he meets your advanced playmakers.

Second, think about what type of player the Libero is. I would argue that Bonnucci cannot be a Libero. He is a world class defender, maybe even a ball playing defender, but your Libero is basically an all rounder, most likely a technical converted midfielder who steps up to be a deep lying playmaker. He needs to not just pass the ball but make good decisions while dribbling.

Thirdly, think about the pace of the game. When Liberos were effective the game as a whole was far slower. This makes me question whether a Libero can be truly effective today full stop. When you watch videos of the old Liberos, Beckenbaur & arguably Mattheus, pay attention to when they begin to carry the ball from deep. They run past the strikers and....the strikers just stop. Some of them are standing hands on their hips as Beckenbauer steps into midfield and gives his team a numbers advantage. This just doesn't happen nowadays with full team pressing.



In conclusion I'd recommend if you want a Libero you should convert a midfielder (Fernandinho, maybe even Yaya Toure?), play deeper with a slower buildup, and use wingbacks or defensive wingers to cover your flanks. This might be counter intuitive, but don't crowd the middle of the pitch with ball winning midfielders and definitely not with playmakers. Ball winning midfielders will sit too deep and present an obvious no-risk short pass to your Libero, playmakers will demand the ball. I'd advise putting them as centre mids on support/attack. The point of a Libero is he creates an extra man when you step up into midfield, so get Gundogan pushing up and creating an overload up front.

I've had decent results with my Libero formation, which is essentially a 5-3-2 which I play as a defensive tactic against better teams away from home. However, only on occasion does the Libero play like I want him to - though when he does, it looks fantastic. An issue I've had is that I don't have enough confidence in the formation to play it every game to get the fluency up, as usually im playing a 3-4-3, so once I'm consolidated in the prem I'm going to start trying to play with Libero more.

Long answer to a short question!
 
Ruud Gullit was originally a Libero, at HFC Haarlem, who would push beyond the midfield to go and score goals - so too, Ronald Koeman, who was also a very effective long range passer and shooter. I think the Andrea Pirlo style Regista role is the modern evolution of the way Koeman played, but now operating in front of the defence with the emphasis on distribution rather than movement.

I agree with Gintopar. The game - especially in the Premier League - is too fast nowadays to play the role the way it used to be, and I think modern tactical systems try to encourage players to make attacking runs from more advanced starting positions, except for full backs whose aim is to provide ammunition for the players already in and around the penalty area.
 
Yea I think players are just a lot fitter now? Going back even 7-8 year, strikers were barely expected to press whatsoever. Think about how many goals players like Vardy, Kane, Villa etc get from them or their team winning their ball very high up the pitch. Then try to imagine Shearer/Cole/Ferdinand doing that. It just didn't happen.

I think also if you think of the profile of centre backs, they were often very big guys, the biggest and slowest on the pitch as they had to deal with long balls and crosses all day. At the top level, you don't have any centre backs like that any more. They have to play from defence and be quick enough to play with their team pressing high. Again if you remember the effect players like Henry and Owen had, both fantastic players and very fast, but plenty of teams had no answer to that. They were playing against the likes of Keown and Adams and Gary Venison (haha). It's only when you get to players like Campbell and Ferdinand that you got real athleticism from your centre halfs.

Therefore, a defender dropping deep was a necessity against pace. A sweeper/libero is a logical extension of that.

All of this being said, I think there is a glimpse of hope for the Libero in the future. At the moment in the prem we are seeing 3-4-3 or 4-3-3 as the answer to the dominant 4-2-3-1 we have seen for the past few years. I'm interested to see if this becomes a proper trend.

If it does, and if it gets as popular as 4-2-3-1 is now, I wouldn't be too surprised to see some teams reemploy a Libero. They would have to play higher up the pitch and probably with a defensive midfielder as cover, but David Luiz, for all his faults, is playing like a Libero at the moment. He can step into midfield because of the insane defensive workrate of Kante, and because the 3 in front of him are so intelligent. So, watch this space :) I've always thought Yaya would make a good Libero!
 
I happened to watch and analyse a bit of the said game (City - Chelsea) and I wouldnt say you want a libero if you wanna replicate Guardiola's gameplan vs Chelsea. If you want a defender to step into midfield, you wanna use a half back, they pretty much do exactly what you wanna achieve with it, but they end up not being too solid defensively in this game as far as Ive found out.

However, if you just want to re-create what Guardiola did in this very specific game, you wanna use 3 BPD's with perhaps a Cover - Stopper - Cover or Stopper - Cover - Stopper. Guardiola demands that everyone needs to be able to play with the ball and thats why he even told to the press that he would play with 11 midfielders if he could, effectively meaning you have everyone able to be highly technical with the ball and therefore your build-up should be easier to do even if you face higher pressing, because you have intelligent and highly technical players able to pass and move. You wanna make use of tight marking and potentially even specific man marking on the defenders as City defenders (Otamendi, Stones, Kolarov) were clearly told to mark tightly all 3 chelsea attackers (Hazard, Costa & Pedro) but they were allowed to do it somewhat fluidly, they werent necessarily told to man mark but there was always one of them sitting next to whichever of the players was next to them. You wanna of course utilise a high line, offside trap and all that.

The wingers need to be someform a variation between defensive wingers & regular wingers. They for sure offered width within this game, but whenever the ball was lost they ended up man marking the 2 Chelsea wingbacks, in this case they were Marcos Alonso, who got marked by Navas and Moses, marked by Sane. Hence City ended up at times looking to be in a 5 defensive line due to this.

In an attacking aspect though, heres where it gets trickier. Guardiola wanted De Bruyne to double up on the right side with Navas, with Navas taking Alonso away and allowing De Bruyne to sweep up through the right flank with a lot of space on his hands. Hence we often saw De Bruyne creating some good crosses from the right flank towards Aguero and creating this type of manouever is probably impossibility in FM17, unless you will play with Navas as AMR as Winger and De Bruyne as MR as Wide Playmaker with attack duty, with him given license to roam and push into middle of the pitch. Im not sure if FM17 would like that too much, maybe. Navas - De Bruyne and Sane - Silva were also swapping positionsevery now and then to keep things interesting and potentially trying to create more of this space on the flanks on both sides, but City clearly pushed thru right side of the pitch more than they did left side.

The two midfielders in the middle ended up being sort of holding midfielders, although I would argue that the only midfielder thats really set as a clearer holding one is Fernandinho as hes mostly focused on holding, defending, intercepting and being passive. Gundögan is given a lot more license to roam, move up and down in a similar fashion to what a Box to Box midfielder will do and he will often end up finding himself in the box so maybe a BBM for his role would suit, but I feel the match engine again wont be fully able to perform how you'd want him to play.

Now if the AM's are there instead of doing what I said above with the Wide Playmaker roles, they need to be both Advanced Playmakers with support, allowed to roam. However you wont get the same movement most likely what De Bruyne and Silva produced in that game, due to limitations of the match engine. But thats how I would set them up, move into channels and all that done to maximise them being able to be passed to and use the empty space.

Aguero didnt really play as a Trequartista or False Nine, its more of a Complete Forward with Attack/Support or even Advanced Forward. He dropped sometimes deeper, but as City was keen to utilise the flanks (especially the right side), Aguero was instructed to make a lot of forward runs behind the enemy defensive line to latch onto a cross coming deep from either side of the field. Sane also performed this feat whenever De Bryune ended up doubling up with Navas on the right side and again, this right flank movement ended up creating some of the best chances City got in that entire game.

Just me quick 2 cents on the actual game as I saw it.
 
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Well, thanks for your replies.

I've been struggling and trying. I tried to pull my holding midfielders back to dms, to set the width to as wide as possible, I tried so many things and had a few okay results, but nothing that would make me feel secure and satisfied.

While I was surfing the internet hoping to get something out of it, I bumped into this article so I'll give this tactic a try (even tough it wasn't what I originally planned).

https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/the-libero-part-i-a-total-defending-approach/


A bit of off topic now: I'm also interested in recreating Rinus Michels total football and Cruyff's 3-4-3 diamond, so if somebody's interested in working with me on that, I'd be happy to try and recreate that wonderful style of football.
 
peligroso said:
Well, thanks for your replies.

I've been struggling and trying. I tried to pull my holding midfielders back to dms, to set the width to as wide as possible, I tried so many things and had a few okay results, but nothing that would make me feel secure and satisfied.

While I was surfing the internet hoping to get something out of it, I bumped into this article so I'll give this tactic a try (even tough it wasn't what I originally planned).

https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/the-libero-part-i-a-total-defending-approach/


A bit of off topic now: I'm also interested in recreating Rinus Michels total football and Cruyff's 3-4-3 diamond, so if somebody's interested in working with me on that, I'd be happy to try and recreate that wonderful style of football.
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this tactic has the same flaw. The two defenders go too wide when to cover for the wide players and then the libero steps up to midfield and your team is wide open through the middle. Liked his idea but it doesn't work well enough.
 
Martino said:
this tactic has the same flaw. The two defenders go too wide when to cover for the wide players and then the libero steps up to midfield and your team is wide open through the middle. Liked his idea but it doesn't work well enough.
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm assuming you tried and tested your own version of that tactic? I didn't put any download links and neither did I specify all the PI's.

Secondly, guys, there are some of us who aren't on the lookout for exploits in the ME to score 200+ goals a season and rather take comfort in trying different ideas and enjoying the beauty of the game.

Third, the tactic there is an illustration of implementing a system based on a concept and the particularities of the squad you're managing.
Fourthly :) yes, you are spot on that managing width is the main issue with a libero-based system. As I have mentioned in the article, the half-back is the ideal role for complementing the DM strata, however in this year's FM the role is flawed and doesn't pull defenders apart wide enough when attacking. If you manage team width settings correctly and have the right players in the right roles it will work. Additionally the HB stays deep when the team attacks and virtually forms a back 3 with the other 2 CB's. The only role who is half-capable of replicating a similar movement is the DLP on defend duty, however he does venture a bit too far forward when attacking. If we are talking about a possible solution, a very fast player with good workrate and defensive atts. will, of course work better in that role.
 
Peligroso... if Bonucci isn't the perfect libero I don't know who is :) You're referring to his playmaking/attacking duties (who are actually really good) more than his positioning, concentration, and general tactical ability which is what makes this role so special. His contribution to passing and such is secondary to his tactical awareness/movement/anticipation and speed. Additionally, you can have a libero influencing the game very well with players in the DM strata if they are performing duties that complement each other and if they cover space correctly. You will find more details about that in the next case study :)
 
referring to the tactics in the 1st and 2nd post, here are a few issues I'd consider: you employ a normal defensive line+close down more+control mentality and two wingers whilst having a wide team shape. This makes your team push pretty high up the pitch and the two centre-backs will be caught high and wide with absolutely no cover when the opposition counter-attacks. The beauty of the libero system is the transition from deep defending to high pressure because of the movement the role performs. Additionally, modern football has stopped using the libero because it was mainly used when the offside trap rule was different, so now the only way it makes sense to use this role is when defending as deep as possible if you want to make any use of it. Second of all, you have 'look for overlap' ticked, which means that when most of your attacking moves finish your wingers will be high up the pitch. So, second key question, how do you cover width? In this article I explain the benefits of a deep lying box to box midfielder and his amazing ability to perform the mezz'ala role - https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/the-deep-lying-box-to-box-midfielder-the-3-5-23-4-3/

take a look :) you need someone to cover the wide areas when defending and that can be achieved through a number of ways - wingbacks, CM's/DM's drifting out wide, combination of these and team instructions and so on.
 
LPQR said:
First of all, I'm assuming you tried and tested your own version of that tactic? I didn't put any download links and neither did I specify all the PI's.

Secondly, guys, there are some of us who aren't on the lookout for exploits in the ME to score 200+ goals a season and rather take comfort in trying different ideas and enjoying the beauty of the game.

Third, the tactic there is an illustration of implementing a system based on a concept and the particularities of the squad you're managing.
Fourthly :) yes, you are spot on that managing width is the main issue with a libero-based system. As I have mentioned in the article, the half-back is the ideal role for complementing the DM strata, however in this year's FM the role is flawed and doesn't pull defenders apart wide enough when attacking. If you manage team width settings correctly and have the right players in the right roles it will work. Additionally the HB stays deep when the team attacks and virtually forms a back 3 with the other 2 CB's. The only role who is half-capable of replicating a similar movement is the DLP on defend duty, however he does venture a bit too far forward when attacking. If we are talking about a possible solution, a very fast player with good workrate and defensive atts. will, of course work better in that role.
Click to expand...

Sorry. Came out wrong, mate. LOVE the concept of your tactic, but the flaw is that the ME makes the defenders drift wide to cover flanks and as the libero goes up you're exposed. It does helt with a FAST libero, and a FAST deep lying playmaker, but tried the tactic with at lower league team, that didnt have any pacey players. That being said, the tactic will easily win you the league with teams like Juventus, Man City, Barca etc. Its so sad that the HB doesnt work, cause yes it would have solved the problem.
I find that the libero works best behind a three man defence or a two man defense with defensive fullbacks. Then he goes forward but the middle wont be exposed. Does it make sense? What PPMs do you use? I love goes forward whenever possible, dribbles through middle and tries killerball often combined with the libero.
I tried your system with Libero on attack, but you did as well right? Otherwise you might as well just use the sweeper role, and then the fun stops ;)

I follow your blog with great interest btw so looking forward to a tweak for weaker teams :)
 
Here you go. Should work against weaker clubs. Against similar clubs, or better, or at away games I would advise against using it.
 
I've also made you this tactic with formation from the OP, but it is even more agressive and it will only work when playing at home against really weak clubs.
 
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