Plymouth can't stop conceding...

[hanseliezer]

Hi guys,

I've only played FM2015 (Classic mode) for 3 days and already 24 games into the League Two season (incl. cups) with Plymouth Argyle, and am currently 22nd and close to my wits' end about how easily my team concede goals (38 in the league alone). I seem to have close to no problem scoring (36 scored), so it's really my defense that is pegging my team back imo.

I started the season using 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow, and have shuffled to Defensive 4-2-3-1 Wide, 4-2-3-1 Narrow, and 4-4-1-1 with various TIs and mentalities (team shape is always Flexible, though), but nothing seems to be working. There have actually been some good performances - got through to the 3rd round of the FA Cup, beating Port Vale 2-5 after replay and Swindon 3-4, as well as 3rd-placed Southend 2-0 in September - but lately the amount of chances and possession every opposing team has is more than baffling. The last game I played (v Northampton; they turned up with 4-4-1-1 and me with 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow), they scored 3 goals before half-time, and then I force-closed the game and gave up (at least for today).


Here are the details:
4-4-2 Diamond Narrow
GK Defend - Luke McCormick
DR Complete Wing Back (Attack) - Kelvin Mellor
DC Limited Defender (Stopper) - Peter Hartley (c)
DC Central Defender (Defend) - Anthony O'Connor
DL Full-back (Defend) - Ben Purrington/Gary Borrowdale
DM Defensive Midfielder (Defend) - River Allen/Dominic Blizzard
CM Deep-Lying Playmaker (Support) - Lee ***
CM Ball-Winning Midfielder (Support) - Oliver Norburn/Matt Lecointe
AM Advanced Playmaker (Support) - Tyler Harvey/Jason Banton (injured)
ST Defensive Forward (Defend)/Deep-Lying Forward (Support) - Lewis Alessandra
ST Advanced Forward (Attack) - Reuben Reid

Defensive 4-2-3-1 Wide
GK Defend - Luke McCormick
DR Complete Wing Back (Attack) - Kelvin Mellor
DC Limited Defender (Stopper) - Peter Hartley (c)
DC Central Defender (Defend) - Anthony O'Connor
DL Full-back (Defend) - Ben Purrington/Gary Borrowdale
DM Ball-Winning Midfielder (Defend) - River Allen/Dominic Blizzard
DM Deep-Lying Playmaker (Defend) - Lee ***
LW Inside Forward (Support) - Nathan Thomas
AM Advanced Playmaker (Support) - Tyler Harvey
RW Inside Forward (Attack) - Lewis Alessandra
ST Advanced Forward (Attack) - Reuben Reid

Team Mentality: Control
Team Shape: Flexible
TIs:
Shorter Passing
Pass Into Space
Work Ball into Box
Play Out of Defence
Hit Early Crosses
Play Wider
Close Down Less

My idea is to play possession-based football, with the DM and CMs starting and playing things from the back, CMs the AM slotting in the killer passes and the full-backs providing width. I've played against several formations (4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, and 4-4-2 mostly) and on some days, my midfield keeps giving the ball away and my defenders keep clearing and going long when there are more than enough space to go short.


I am very new to FM, so I don't yet have that much idea about how things really work in the game, so any kind of corrections to my tactics (or anything, really) are more than welcome.

 

[WJ]

Are the TIs for the 2nd tactic or both?

You mention that you concede goals, but not how.

Also, what's the plan behind the two tactics. How are they supposed to function and what specifically isn't working?

How did you choose the roles? Looking at the attributes of some of them, I don't understand why you've chosen the roles you have for certain players. The *** and Allen DM combo, I wouldn't have chosen quite the same you have and Tyler Harvey's role is also an interesting one.

So quite interested to hear your take on the two tactics and the role choices.

Edit: also, for clarity sake, could you indicate which CM/DM is centre right and centre left?

 

[dilakh2]

when i started my plymouth save, tyler harvey is amazing as a shadow striker.

 

[hanseliezer]

Are the TIs for the 2nd tactic or both?

You mention that you concede goals, but not how.

Also, what's the plan behind the two tactics. How are they supposed to function and what specifically isn't working?

How did you choose the roles? Looking at the attributes of some of them, I don't understand why you've chosen the roles you have for certain players. The *** and Allen DM combo, I wouldn't have chosen quite the same you have and Tyler Harvey's role is also an interesting one.

So quite interested to hear your take on the two tactics and the role choices.

Edit: also, for clarity sake, could you indicate which CM/DM is centre right and centre left?

(whoa, didn't expect your reply to come so soon; thank you)


Yes, the TIs are pretty much the same for both. I have tried More Direct Passing as well, but didn't really made much of a difference. I forgot to mention too that for a couple of games, I have tried using Defensive and Counter mentalities and won two times out of three if I recall correctly (it's late at night here and my laptop's off already, so I'll take a better look at it tomorrow), but soon enough teams find their way past that and managed to dominate possession and blew like 4 goals in 40 minutes. and did I already mention often using Play Wider TI too?


Conceded goals: According to the stats, more than half came from crosses. and I do notice that my defenders is often not really that good at marking opponents, so quite a lot of free headers and tap-ins, too.
(and since you asked this, I have a question: in the set piece creator, for defending corners, I put both of my full backs to guard both the near and far post. but two or three times already, the opponent scored from a corner, either with a bullet header or an half-volley, with the ball going past just beside those full-backs, and it seems they just stood there cold: not even a swing of a foot or an attempt to head it clear. did you or anyone else ever experienced this? is this a known bug or is it just that my full-backs lacked Anticipation?)


How I want to play (oh my, you got me on this one): well, (at least what I imagined in my head) I want my team to play a dominating passing game from back to front. while defending, I pictured both DM and CMs as the barricade in front of the defense. after winning the ball, I expect my DCs or DM to lay simple passes to either midfield or the full-backs, and let the midfield pass their way up front, starting from the DM, then the CMs, and finally to either my AM or STs. all while the full-backs provide the width, both as a passing option for my midfielders, and as crossers from deep. (do I explain this well enough? even I don't really know how to properly describe what I want, and if all of this even made any sort of sense)


Player roles: mostly I follow the Recommended Roles. if I think it doesn't fit to the scheme as whole, I change it to a role which I thought resemble close to their original (e.g. playing Dom Blizzard as a Ball-Winning Midfielder (Defend) CM while being paired with Lee *** rather than Defensive Midfielder (Defend) DM in the 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow formation).

for defenders (Hartley/Nelson-O'Connor), I chose Limited (Stopper)-Central (Defend) because - from what I read in the role descriptions - Limiteds will more often than not whack the ball long rather than pass it simple, even when there is really no immediate danger around him. so I have to have one Central, who I think will prefer to pass it instead of clear it as often as Limiteds. so as O'Connor is from what I saw more proficient in passing - and Hartley in tackling - I put O'Connor as the Central and Hartley as the Limited.

for midfielders (Allen/Olly Norburn/Lecointe-***), I put Allen (and occasionally Norburn) as Ball-Winning (Support) because his Tackling is good and his Stamina decent, so I figure he'll be comfortable harrying midfielders trying to dribble or pass in the central areas. as of ***, I noticed that - while his Decisions is rather poor - he has very good Vision, so I kind of hope as a Deep-Laying Playmaker he can thread some throughballs every now and then to the front, while still maintaining some sort of defensive shape (I've also played him earlier as Advanced Playmaker (Support) and Central Midfielder (Support), based on this similar thought).

for the DM (Blizzard/Norburn/Allen, depending on who is fit), I wanted them to be the link to which the DCs can pass to, for then he can pass it to the more creative ***. while the ball is near my opponent's box, I expect him to stay near the circle, anticipating any clearances so my team can start over.

for Harvey (or Banton before he was injured for a total of 4 months *sigh*), I figured that somebody else other than *** must be able to be the one who can get some killer passes through the opposition's defense to the strikers, while being a goal threat from the edge of the box, hence Advanced Playmaker
for 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow, *** is on the right and Allen on the left. the opposite is true for Defensive 4-2-3-1 Wide.

sooo, my questions are basically:
1. why do I concede so many goals (esp. from crosses)? is it a matter of poor playing personnel and mediocre marking from my defenders or something to do with my choice of tactics?
2. why do opponents still manage to have most of the chances and possession, even after I instructed my team to pass it short and keep the ball and not hack it away like there's no tomorrow?
(I have some more too, but I guess this is way too much already, so this is it for now)


thank you for reading this rant of mine :S

 

[hanseliezer]

when i started my plymouth save, tyler harvey is amazing as a shadow striker.

yeah, I noticed his Finishing is very good for his age, but I thought having Reuben Reid-Alessandra as the two up front is enough (Reid has scored 24 in 23 matches - including two hattricks in three FA Cup games against those League One oppos). besides, if I put him as SS, I figured there would only be three midfield players left doing the 'transition' phase in my team

 

[dilakh2]

yeah, I noticed his Finishing is very good for his age, but I thought having Reuben Reid-Alessandra as the two up front is enough (Reid has scored 24 in 23 matches - including two hattricks in three FA Cup games against those League One oppos). besides, if I put him as SS, I figured there would only be three midfield players left doing the 'transition' phase in my team

I started a save with forest green got them promoted too league 2 then took the plymouth job expecting them to be in league1. Little did i know they had been relegated. My first youth intake gave me a ST with 192 pa. He literally fired me up the divisions. So hopefully you get lucky like me and pull a rabbit from the hat.

 

[WJ]

Going to break this one up into pieces. Fortunately you divided it for me already!

(whoa, didn't expect your reply to come so soon; thank you)

I'm often online.

Yes, the TIs are pretty much the same for both. I have tried More Direct Passing as well, but didn't really made much of a difference. I forgot to mention too that for a couple of games, I have tried using Defensive and Counter mentalities and won two times out of three if I recall correctly (it's late at night here and my laptop's off already, so I'll take a better look at it tomorrow), but soon enough teams find their way past that and managed to dominate possession and blew like 4 goals in 40 minutes. and did I already mention often using Play Wider TI too?

Then I'm surprised. For the 4-2-3-1, you're playing wider, but also passing shorter. So, your players will be further apart, but you're shortening their range. You may find that they lack options within their set range and that's probably why they're giving the ball away.

In the Diamond, you're playing wider. Why? It widens your play, but also sets a passing focus to your wings. Why would you want that when you'll have the numbers centrally in the majority of the games?

Conceded goals: According to the stats, more than half came from crosses. and I do notice that my defenders is often not really that good at marking opponents, so quite a lot of free headers and tap-ins, too.
(and since you asked this, I have a question: in the set piece creator, for defending corners, I put both of my full backs to guard both the near and far post. but two or three times already, the opponent scored from a corner, either with a bullet header or an half-volley, with the ball going past just beside those full-backs, and it seems they just stood there cold: not even a swing of a foot or an attempt to head it clear. did you or anyone else ever experienced this? is this a known bug or is it just that my full-backs lacked Anticipation?)

I don't like to hear "according to the stats" because it sounds like you're not watching much. How much does the fact that you have one defender as a stopper affect the defending from crosses? He may be leaving space behind him, but that's just speculation.

No bug. You said it yourself. Bullet headers and volleys. They are hard to stop if you can't use your arms.

How I want to play (oh my, you got me on this one): well, (at least what I imagined in my head) I want my team to play a dominating passing game from back to front. while defending, I pictured both DM and CMs as the barricade in front of the defense. after winning the ball, I expect my DCs or DM to lay simple passes to either midfield or the full-backs, and let the midfield pass their way up front, starting from the DM, then the CMs, and finally to either my AM or STs. all while the full-backs provide the width, both as a passing option for my midfielders, and as crossers from deep. (do I explain this well enough? even I don't really know how to properly describe what I want, and if all of this even made any sort of sense)

This is another worrying statement. You haven't thought about how to play, yet you've created many tactics in this short season already? You need a clear idea of how you want to play BEFORE creating a tactic. Only then will you be able to set up according to that plan and also spot if players aren't doing what you want them to or doing something different to what you thought you instructed. In short, you may not pick up on issues as quickly or at all if you don't know what is supposed to happen.

Again, Play Wider sets a passing focus to wide. The players will be actively looking to get it to your DR (since the DL isn't getting forward at all). You may not see as much play through the middle as you want. Everything indicates to NOT having Play Wider.

You mention fullbackS (plural). The DL won't provide width. He's on a defend duty so will stay back. An odd choice as well. Looking at Purrington, he'd be perfect for a support role as he has decent passing and composure. On the other side, Mellor will bomb forward, so he'll be an attacking passing option. I suspect the playmakers (especially the DLP/S in the Diamond) will pick him out often as playmakers have mixed passing at least.

Player roles: mostly I follow the Recommended Roles. if I think it doesn't fit to the scheme as whole, I change it to a role which I thought resemble close to their original (e.g. playing Dom Blizzard as a Ball-Winning Midfielder (Defend) CM while being paired with Lee *** rather than Defensive Midfielder (Defend) DM in the 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow formation).

I had my suspicions that that is what you did. You can't just blindly do that. You need to keep the overall system in mind. The system is most important. Pick a formation/system where you can get your best (or all/most) players in their best/better roles to take advantage of their strengths.

for defenders (Hartley/Nelson-O'Connor), I chose Limited (Stopper)-Central (Defend) because - from what I read in the role descriptions - Limiteds will more often than not whack the ball long rather than pass it simple, even when there is really no immediate danger around him. so I have to have one Central, who I think will prefer to pass it instead of clear it as often as Limiteds. so as O'Connor is from what I saw more proficient in passing - and Hartley in tackling - I put O'Connor as the Central and Hartley as the Limited.

Limited defenders will keep it simple by clearing the ball often. This goes against your possession game though. I'm not convinced by you having a Stopper role. I'm actually not sure why you have it? He'll get dragged out of position easily, especially since the DR is very attacking - I assume the stopper is on the right. Let you DM cover the flank by removing the stopper duty, IMO.

for midfielders (Allen/Olly Norburn/Lecointe-***), I put Allen (and occasionally Norburn) as Ball-Winning (Support) because his Tackling is good and his Stamina decent, so I figure he'll be comfortable harrying midfielders trying to dribble or pass in the central areas. as of ***, I noticed that - while his Decisions is rather poor - he has very good Vision, so I kind of hope as a Deep-Laying Playmaker he can thread some throughballs every now and then to the front, while still maintaining some sort of defensive shape (I've also played him earlier as Advanced Playmaker (Support) and Central Midfielder (Support), based on this similar thought).

A DLP/D will likely not be threading through balls to the front. He's just in front of the defence, so too far back. You may find a DLP/S doing it, but that won't be often. If you want that, you're going to have to go more aggressive - Regista. Roaming Playmaker too, but he might get in the way of your AP/S too much.

for the DM (Blizzard/Norburn/Allen, depending on who is fit), I wanted them to be the link to which the DCs can pass to, for then he can pass it to the more creative ***. while the ball is near my opponent's box, I expect him to stay near the circle, anticipating any clearances so my team can start over.

Here I was questioning your DM combination of Allen (DM - BWM/D) and *** (DM - DLP/D). I think their roles should be reversed. Allen has better vision and passing. ***, on the other hand, is more composed and makes better decisions. Those two attributes are great in a playmaker, but in an aggressive role like a BWM, it's probably more important. *** also has more stamina. That's my opinion though and not serious. Something to think about.

for Harvey (or Banton before he was injured for a total of 4 months *sigh*), I figured that somebody else other than *** must be able to be the one who can get some killer passes through the opposition's defense to the strikers, while being a goal threat from the edge of the box, hence Advanced Playmaker
for 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow, *** is on the right and Allen on the left. the opposite is true for Defensive 4-2-3-1 Wide.

And that he will do. He's advanced enough to be in the right positions.

In the 4-2-3-1 he has two regular targets, which is great. Only one target in the Diamond formation, which isn't that great.

The drawback is that he won't get into positions to use his good finishing. He's a better finisher and more composed than your goal scorer Reid! I can't help but wonder how he'd do as a Shadow Striker or (if you need him to stay deep-ish but still roam and get forward) a Trequartista.

sooo, my questions are basically:
1. why do I concede so many goals (esp. from crosses)? is it a matter of poor playing personnel and mediocre marking from my defenders or something to do with my choice of tactics?
2. why do opponents still manage to have most of the chances and possession, even after I instructed my team to pass it short and keep the ball and not hack it away like there's no tomorrow?
(I have some more too, but I guess this is way too much already, so this is it for now)

I'm not sure on the first. I think it has to do with you closing down less while being quite aggressive defensively, as is default for Control mentality. I also wonder about the positioning of that stopper when crosses come in.

I don't think you're set up as well as you think you are. Setting "Pass Shorter" won't automatically give you short passes and masses of possession. They're probably hacking it because they don't have decent passing options available. Giving the DL a different role will help this. So will removing Pass Shorter and Play Wider unless you see you actually need it.

If you have more questions, go for it. I'm going to sound patronising, but don't take it the wrong way. Most (all?) of your issues, you will be able to spot if you watch a match. Even if it's just 10-15 mins on full. You'd be surprised at what you will be able to pick up. Being new, you may not know how to fix it, but knowing that there's a problem and what the problem is, is a good start.

thank you for reading this rant of mine :S

This isn't even close to a rant. You'll have to try harder.

 

[Igneos79]

Well, time flies when you're in good company....and it can never be brought back...may I suggest you switch to counter, might help you retain possession better since you are already not pressing that hard, and in the process reduce their time on the ball and probably shots at your goal?

 

[hanseliezer]

This is another worrying statement. You haven't thought about how to play, yet you've created many tactics in this short season already? You need a clear idea of how you want to play BEFORE creating a tactic. Only then will you be able to set up according to that plan and also spot if players aren't doing what you want them to or doing something different to what you thought you instructed. In short, you may not pick up on issues as quickly or at all if you don't know what is supposed to happen.

yeah, I admit I don't know yet what I'm really doing. guess I still have very much to learn, eh
what I do know is that - for now - using a formation with 2 wide players isn't viable (yet), since I only have Alesssandra and Banton (injured already) as decent enough wingers for the right and left respectively, and I've spent the rest of my wage budget on getting unattached backup fullbacks (thanks to my board's skimpy zero euros transfer budget).

 

[hanseliezer]

Then I'm surprised. For the 4-2-3-1, you're playing wider, but also passing shorter. So, your players will be further apart, but you're shortening their range. You may find that they lack options within their set range and that's probably why they're giving the ball away.


In the Diamond, you're playing wider. Why? It widens your play, but also sets a passing focus to your wings. Why would you want that when you'll have the numbers centrally in the majority of the games?

Again, Play Wider sets a passing focus to wide. The players will be actively looking to get it to your DR (since the DL isn't getting forward at all). You may not see as much play through the middle as you want. Everything indicates to NOT having Play Wider.


You mention fullbackS (plural). The DL won't provide width. He's on a defend duty so will stay back. An odd choice as well. Looking at Purrington, he'd be perfect for a support role as he has decent passing and composure. On the other side, Mellor will bomb forward, so he'll be an attacking passing option. I suspect the playmakers (especially the DLP/S in the Diamond) will pick him out often as playmakers have mixed passing at least.

well, in my (attempted) defense, I thought using Play Wider will make the midfielders roam and pass a bit more flexibly, perhaps using the gaps between DCs and DR/DL instead of only going through between the DC pairs (my gut told me you're going to tell me otherwise...)

 

[hanseliezer]

I had my suspicions that that is what you did. You can't just blindly do that. You need to keep the overall system in mind. The system is most important. Pick a formation/system where you can get your best (or all/most) players in their best/better roles to take advantage of their strengths.

imo, I think one of my problem is I don't know what "benchmark" to use when measuring whether a player is good enough for the role I want him to play in e.g. is someone with a Decisions of 7 and Composure of 8 good enough to be a League Two DLP/AP, or is someone with Crossing 8, Marking 8 and Concentration 8 good enough to be a League Two FB (S)/WB (S)?
I also still have not too much idea on how different roles work together as a unit e.g. how a BBM (S)-CM (S) pair play together, and how they work when coupled with a DLP (D) DM, making my midfield something like an inconsistent mish-mash of clueless footballers. but I guess I'll read up on that myself.

 

[Igneos79]

imo, I think one of my problem is I don't know what "benchmark" to use when measuring whether a player is good enough for the role I want him to play in e.g. is someone with a Decisions of 7 and Composure of 8 good enough to be a League Two DLP/AP, or is someone with Crossing 8, Marking 8 and Concentration 8 good enough to be a League Two FB (S)/WB (S)?
I also still have not too much idea on how different roles work together as a unit e.g. how a BBM (S)-CM (S) pair play together, and how they work when coupled with a DLP (D) DM, making my midfield something like an inconsistent mish-mash of clueless footballers. but I guess I'll read up on that myself.

you can read on roles combos here: Roles & Duties | Football Manager 2015 Guide

regarding roles and duties, the green circle around them should tell you enough....those with full green circle are perfect.

 

[hanseliezer]

you can read on roles combos here: Roles & Duties | Football Manager 2015 Guide

regarding roles and duties, the green circle around them should tell you enough....those with full green circle are perfect.

yeah, my mind thought of that website too!

on an related note, why do I keep getting 'Post denied' message when trying to post in this very thread? It says the number of URLs are limited and it is checked for forbidden words. I only intend to have one URL (i.e. WJ's quote) and I'm pretty sure there is nothing resembling a swearword in it...

 

[WJ]

imo, I think one of my problem is I don't know what "benchmark" to use when measuring whether a player is good enough for the role I want him to play in e.g. is someone with a Decisions of 7 and Composure of 8 good enough to be a League Two DLP/AP, or is someone with Crossing 8, Marking 8 and Concentration 8 good enough to be a League Two FB (S)/WB (S)?
I also still have not too much idea on how different roles work together as a unit e.g. how a BBM (S)-CM (S) pair play together, and how they work when coupled with a DLP (D) DM, making my midfield something like an inconsistent mish-mash of clueless footballers. but I guess I'll read up on that myself.

You have to use your own judgement too. I wouldn't even recommend a guide or site for this. FM already highlights the key attributes. You also have the role description and Player Instructions to judge what he will be doing as well.

Especially in the lower leagues, players aren't going to be perfect. The setup you had, for instance, with your 2 DMs would work. I just would have swapped them around because of the reasons given. IMO, that would work better. Theory though.

--

You mention the player with Crossing 8, Marking 8 and Concentration 8. Fair enough to ask the question.

The thing is, you asked him to be a fullback/defend. That means he doesn't get forward. In fact, he's completely un-involved in build-up (or any) play with the ball. His only function in the team is to defend. He has poor marking, positioning, decisions and concentration. Looking at your squad depth, he's the poorest player in the starting 11.

So why did I recommend a support role?

He'll be available as an out ball, if your midfielders are in trouble. That keeps possession (something you stated you want) and therefore you defend less. That's music to Purrington's ears. He has okay passing (10), technique (11) and decent vision (11) so he won't be a liability with the ball. You should be worried more about him when he doesn't. He'll keep possession, draw the defenders wide and give it back to a midfielder. Perfect. He only has a support duty, so it's not like he'll bomb down the line and cross endlessly. If he gets the ball, it'll be late into a move where he's most likely in lots of space (time to deliver) and you have many targets in the box, so even if he's not 100% accurate, it doesn't matter that much.

He has decent attributes for crossing anyway, with Crossing (8), Balance (10) and Technique (11). He has great stamina too.

If you are worried about him there, take a look at Blizzard? Already in your team and better attributes. Good with both feet too. He may be a slightly better choice at DL.

--

If you don't know how certain roles will play together, the best option would be to select those roles and watch them in action. Set it on Full Match and watch them for a few minutes. The description, key attributes and player instructions will give you an idea, but you still need to see it in action to see if it's what you want. The ME really is under-used for that sort of thing and it's a shame.

 

[WJ]

When you choose roles, never forget the bigger picture (your system) though. For example, in your 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond, you have a Striker dropping off, pulling a defender with him. What if you had a more attacking AMC in there to exploit that gap? Or, what if you had a CM making runs past the AMC and into that hole that the striker has created?

You need to be looking at that. Creating gaps and having other players exploit it. The 4-2-3-1 isn't bad in terms of that, but the Diamond is a bit dull in this area, with only the AF/A a regular threat.

 

[Igneos79]

yeah, my mind thought of that website too!

on an related note, why do I keep getting 'Post denied' message when trying to post in this very thread? It says the number of URLs are limited and it is checked for forbidden words. I only intend to have one URL (i.e. WJ's quote) and I'm pretty sure there is nothing resembling a swearword in it...

probably because you are using a new profile and there has been problems with spammers....when you get your post count up, you should have no issues...