Poor Defending but good match ratings

[GalwayGeneral]

Hi this is my first post in the forum, and I'll try to follow protocol and list all my info, but forgive me if I omit something.


I'm managing Sunderland in my third season. In my first season I brought them up from the Championship, and I managed a 4th place finish when predicted 16th in the next season. Now I'm in my second season in the EPL, and things are good (I'm in 3rd even though I was predicted 12th) but I've noticed a worrying trend that has a tendency to strike out of nowhere.


Below is a screenshot of my most common tactics. I use multiple tactics, but these, and slight variations of these are most common:



View attachment 137668 View attachment 137669



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The first formation was designed to deal with what has generally been my main problem in FM. Attacking players getting isolated, then standing around looking foolish, and getting the ball taken.


The wing backs help to keep possession, and prevents my wide men from getting isolated. They also maraud down the wings and swing crosses in, which allows me to push my attacking players together, and they can play quick short passes much easier.

The second formation is one I started experimenting with recently. It won me a few champions league games, and gave me a 4-0 victory against Arsenal, the league leaders. However I have lost my last 4 games, and conceded a total of 15 goals in all of them, including a ridiculous 4-2 loss to West Ham at home.


My defensive players have reasonably good match ratings, as can be seen on the photo above. Yet they concede far too frequently. We have one of the worse defensive records in the league and have conceded 52 goals, with 6 matches still to go. This is compared to last season where we only conceded 33, with this same formation, and much weaker defenders.

The way these goals seem to come is often really peculiar. Basically, the opposition will keep trying to pull my defenders to one side, and switch the ball to an open winger for a cross. Regardless of the opposition, this style has been my downfall against every team. Basically, they'll switch the ball, and I close down, and they need to recycle possession cause they have no space. Thats how its supposed to work, and it usually does. But every once in a while, even though he's closed down, sometimes by two defenders, the winger will stop, and then hit an unbelievable cross to a striker either around the penalty spot or back post.

I've tried a lot, but there seems not to be anything to stop it. Its like they just produce these crosses from thin air. Then my two Central Defenders with 15 and 16 marking, and 14 and 16 anticipation respectively, aren't able to do anything about it. It happens a lot against lower level teams, who will have one fast winger, and one striker who never misses. The rest of their team is average, but thats all they need.

These two goals I conceded vs Norwich are a good example. Sorry for the bad quality.


[video=youtube;JMR7WEjNxL0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMR7WEjNxL0&feature=youtu.be[/video]



Why are my defenders still getting such good match ratings, even though they're letting in all these goals?

What can I do to to stop this?

 

[CaptiveBridge]

Which formation is the video using? Frankly, the first goal seems unfortunate and the second goals seems disorganised.

The first formation asks too much of your centrebacks and the HB LD(c) pairing seems odd. The hard coding of the HB pushing your defenders wide would negate some of the functions of a covering defender, I should think. While, we like to think that having a player in the WB slot makes them a defender, the game treats them as wide defensive midfielders and not defenders. So you have two proper defenders being told to push wide by the HB in front of them and with no wide defenders, I think a fair bit of your goals is going to come from spacing errors caused by your formation. Additionally, you don't have enough cover as you push 7 players forward in attack.

With the second formation, why do you use the automatic duty on the fullbacks and a CM? Starting to think the videos are with this formation. It makes sense for them to exploit the wings, especially down your left side and float crosses to your right side. You're weakest on wing, playing narrow and the player screening your defence is on your left. So there's going to be a fairly sizeable gap between your defensive line and the right side of CMs to aim for; by the time your screening player moves to close down, the fullback would also be closing down. Once the left fullback pushes up, to maintain your width the rest of the defence will shift to the left to cover and balance. So if you looked at the full pitch you'd see a fair bit of opposing players outside your right fullback. Yes you may have solid central defenders, but your opponent seems to be bypassing your centrebacks completely.

To counter this, you could put the screening player in the middle of the three CMs and try to engage the wingers higher up the pitch so they don't get to run unto the fullback. Playing with lone widemen so far back means that someone in the middle is going to have to hassle wide players earlier.

What's the reasoning behind your shouts?

 

[GalwayGeneral]

Hey thanks so much for responding. You guessed right, it is the second tactic. Your analysis makes a lot of sense. The narrower formation encourages them to come down the wings. However I figured that the fullbacks would make crossing a problem for their wingers, and I gave them specific instructions to close them down. Additionally, the men in the box would be able to intercept the crosses, as I figured they would be poorer as the winger was crossing under pressure. For the second goal though, the ball passes three of my defenders before reaching their attacker. I would think at least one of them would have been able to cut that out. Furthermore, my left back (Van Anholt) is right in the winger's face when he crosses.

In regards to the first tactic, this is the one I really want to build into my main tactic, so I appreciate the feedback. I was under the impression that by using the DM as a HB, I was essentially giving myself 3 at the back when attacking, and 5 in the back when defending, once my wing backs return. The CD I play as a stopper is supposed to come out and challenge the oncoming attacks, and the HB I assumed would slot in behind him, and cover his spot. Then the LD would be slightly behind to deal with anything that by passed the CD and HB. It basically staggers my defense, so they can't beat me with one good through ball. Then the opponents would move to the wings, and the wing backs would put pressure on them. I then used the Tight Marking instructions so they wouldn't have great crossing options. From what you're saying, it sounds like my error was not realizing how the HB would affect the defender's spacing. I thought due to the specialized defending roles, their roles would override. I think I'll try using them both as LDs, and change the HB to a BWM.


A couple follow up questions:

Is it better to focus on marking to deal with crosses, or to prevent the crosses coming in the first place?

Any ideas how my defenders are getting good match ratings, even with all the goals conceded?

Thanks again.

 

[WJ]

In regards to the first tactic, this is the one I really want to build into my main tactic, so I appreciate the feedback. I was under the impression that by using the DM as a HB, I was essentially giving myself 3 at the back when attacking, and 5 in the back when defending, once my wing backs return.

Watch a match. The HB drops between the defenders in attack, but (as your formation is also the defensive shape) will defend in the DM spot. Otherwise, what's the point of selecting a HB?

Think about it. A player who defends in line with the DCs and sits in line with the DCs in possession, is a DC.

Is it better to focus on marking to deal with crosses, or to prevent the crosses coming in the first place?

The goal is in the middle of the pitch. Your defenders have to deal with those crosses in front of their goal. They won't win every ball.

Stop the cross while the ball is wide and not yet dangerous.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

Been travelling a lot, so responses will be infrequent.

Hey thanks so much for responding. You guessed right, it is the second tactic. Your analysis makes a lot of sense. The narrower formation encourages them to come down the wings. However I figured that the fullbacks would make crossing a problem for their wingers, and I gave them specific instructions to close them down. Additionally, the men in the box would be able to intercept the crosses, as I figured they would be poorer as the winger was crossing under pressure. For the second goal though, the ball passes three of my defenders before reaching their attacker. I would think at least one of them would have been able to cut that out. Furthermore, my left back (Van Anholt) is right in the winger's face when he crosses.

Closing down instructions stack across TIs, PIs, and Opposition Instructions. Your TIs closing down isn't high, I'm assuming you didn't change the PI and OI is what you've set. Considering that, he would be more aggressive than normal - emphasis on the use of more to show relativity - but it doesn't mean that he will be very aggressive in closing down. Considering how FM does defending, your defenders are marking zonally. So when the winger comes into Van Anholts' zone, Van Anholt will be more willing to close the winger down, but it doesn't mean the full back will be on the winger like white on rice. And yes, he gets closed down but you can see in both goals that the winger has already stopped his run and is already looking to make the cross. So while your player gets there as the cross is to happen, that decision for the winger has already been made and your fullback arrives mid-cross. Van Anholt gets there late, he gets there, but he is late.

You have to think about how TI, PI, and OI all come together to affect your shape and playing.

In regards to the first tactic, this is the one I really want to build into my main tactic, so I appreciate the feedback. I was under the impression that by using the DM as a HB, I was essentially giving myself 3 at the back when attacking, and 5 in the back when defending, once my wing backs return. The CD I play as a stopper is supposed to come out and challenge the oncoming attacks, and the HB I assumed would slot in behind him, and cover his spot. Then the LD would be slightly behind to deal with anything that by passed the CD and HB. It basically staggers my defense, so they can't beat me with one good through ball. Then the opponents would move to the wings, and the wing backs would put pressure on them. I then used the Tight Marking instructions so they wouldn't have great crossing options. From what you're saying, it sounds like my error was not realizing how the HB would affect the defender's spacing. I thought due to the specialized defending roles, their roles would override. I think I'll try using them both as LDs, and change the HB to a BWM.

How you're thinking makes sense, however how you're translating that into FM does not. As WJ says, watch a previous match through on Comprehensive or longer. Pay attention to your defending phases and the opponents transition from defence to attack. The formation is how your players would ideally line up out of possession. SO while the HB does drop in possesion, he is still a defensive midfielder out of possession. Same with your wingbacks. By having them in the WB slot, instead of the FB slot, they are wide defensive midfielders, so ideally they would not be completely in line with your centrebacks. So if you want 5 in the back while defending, you would be best served having 5 defenders.

Before we get to deciding roles and duties, we have to get the idea of how you want to play, the formation, and the mentality down first.

A couple follow up questions:

Is it better to focus on marking to deal with crosses, or to prevent the crosses coming in the first place?

Any ideas how my defenders are getting good match ratings, even with all the goals conceded?

Thanks again.

Always easier to stop the ball in the first place. Once you see the games and look at what your team is doing off the ball then you'll have an idea of how to stop the cross. From there, it's just an issue of translating it into FM.

As for the second question, bluntly, your set up is porous and the AI has you pegged. They know how to play against you now and how to get in the gaps. The more porous you are, the more defensive instances occur. Yes, you concede a lot, but because you are giving up more chances and your defenders are being called into action more, there will be a high number of events where they do the right thing. With the increase in defensive instances they have more chances to do the right thing, as well as more chances to concede. So the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Think Euro 2012, Spain ripped through Italy quite often and won 4-0. However, look at the individual stats of some of the Italian players and they weren't terrible. Buffon made 5 saves, Casillas made 6. Italy backline only committed 3 fouls in total all game, 30 interceptions, 17 clearances, etc, but Spain just attacked so often that while doing a lot of good defensive things, Italy could not cope with everything. That's what the game is saying, individually your players are doing good things, but they are doing too much so they concede.

 

[larykoek]

Fm doesn't only rate goals conceded sometimes they make 14 interceptions and 6 tackles and they get an 8.20 eventhough they conceded 4 times

Also i usually train my centreback with actions like: always stay back and dont run with the ball and sometimes also search for simple/easy passes.

Also how much pace do your defenders have? Because in the 2 cb with the half back formation pace is very important


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