Tactical Changes or Patience?

[teaves31]

Hello guys, I am new to this forum, so bear with me...

I have started a save with Bolton in League 1, good squad (apart from most of the key players all start injured) and so far it is 1 win 1 draw and 1 defeat in the league and 1 win in the league cup.
So far the league cup win against Bury 4-0 is the only game where we have played what I am looking for. No for the part where I try and explain what I am looking for and hope you understand it.

Formation - 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 however you want to look at it. It is as follows:

-----------DF(s)--------
IF(a)---------------W(s)
-----CM(s)----AP(att)---
-----------DM(d)--------
FB(s) CB(d) CB(d) FB(s)
------------GK-----------

I want my team to play patient passing football, not panic and hoof, looking to work our way up the field and staying patient to create good chances. I suppose the cliche team to use is Arsenal, although I would like us to shoot on the odd occasion

The Tactics from memory that I have are:
Work ball into box
Normal Tempo
Normal Line
Play out of defence
Close down sometimes (was higher, but we seemed to be a lot less structured at the back, teams picking holes through us).
Slightly Narrower (wanted to get my IF in the box (ameobi) as he's the best fit attacking player I have.
I also tried retain possession with control strategy but that didnt seem to be working...

What I am seeing is my full backs lumping it long into my striker or wingers, so I added 'play fewer risky passes' in the last game but it didn't seem to work. My GK is set to distribute to full backs, but 50% of the time still kicks it long.
All the league games so far as played out like we are counter-attacking, whilst Wimbledon play like how I want to and keep possession, remaining patient and passing it around in front of me while we chase and chase...

It is the opposite to what I want. So I have two questions (even though there is a lot I have probably left out for you to be able to answer fully).

1. Do I need to have faith that it will eventually look more and more like what I want, as the tactical familiarity is around 40% at the moment... Patience the key?

2. Anyone see in the early stages something fundamentally wrong with the formation and system for playing this type of game?

I originally started with 4-2-3-1 but a lot of teams in League 1 seem to play with 2 strikers, leaving me exposed on the counter without a deeper playing defensive midfielder.

Questions and answers welcome, hopefully I have provided enough for a starting point.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I don't see anything too fundamentally wrong with the basics there. Nothing seems immediately concerning. Not too heavy on the TIs, which seems to be a common mistake.

Big question I have - what is your fluidity and mentality?

 

[kryptoh]

That's pretty close to the type of system I play, although you didn't list your mentality and fluidity. Your defenders hoofing the ball may be due to you being in a more defensive mentality. The lower your mentality, the more direct your defenders will pass.

I have played pretty much the same system as that the last 3 years and have done quite well. I have found, however, that a DF as your lone striker is a bit hit or miss. He's going to keep it VERY simple and won't be very creative, so you really need interesting midfielders that can create good movement and passing. I very much prefer to use a creative lone striker that can play the DLF or False 9 roles. That formation creates a big pocket of space between the midfield and attack and I find having a striker that can be creative in the space takes some of the pressure off the playmaker.

Another thing that I do is put the winger on the right on attack and the IF on the left on support. The winger will be more aggressive with runs and cross more and you will find your striker and IF on the end of more chances. I also like to put the left FB on attack. When the IF receives the ball wide, he'll cut in on the dribble and very often make a short pass to the supporting midfielder or DM who will immediately hit the FB into the space vacated by the IF. Since the FB marking the IF will get pulled inside by the IF, the FB will have loads of space to push to the by-line for a cross.

Also, leaving the right winger on attack also adds more dynamic play because he will be more direct than the IF-A. If you are constantly passing short and never going direct, the opposing manager will recognize that and adjust.

 

[teaves31]

I don't see anything too fundamentally wrong with the basics there. Nothing seems immediately concerning. Not too heavy on the TIs, which seems to be a common mistake.

Big question I have - what is your fluidity and mentality?

Hi

Without checking, I believe it started with Fluid, but changed to Structured Fluidity and that is with Control mentality.
I changed during a 0-0 from control to standard as all we did was keep giving the ball away, it looked as though we were trying to push higher up the pitch with no options for the man on the ball. I thought standard would us back a little deeper.

 

[teaves31]

That's pretty close to the type of system I play, although you didn't list your mentality and fluidity. Your defenders hoofing the ball may be due to you being in a more defensive mentality. The lower your mentality, the more direct your defenders will pass.

I have played pretty much the same system as that the last 3 years and have done quite well. I have found, however, that a DF as your lone striker is a bit hit or miss. He's going to keep it VERY simple and won't be very creative, so you really need interesting midfielders that can create good movement and passing. I very much prefer to use a creative lone striker that can play the DLF or False 9 roles. That formation creates a big pocket of space between the midfield and attack and I find having a striker that can be creative in the space takes some of the pressure off the playmaker.

Another thing that I do is put the winger on the right on attack and the IF on the left on support. The winger will be more aggressive with runs and cross more and you will find your striker and IF on the end of more chances. I also like to put the left FB on attack. When the IF receives the ball wide, he'll cut in on the dribble and very often make a short pass to the supporting midfielder or DM who will immediately hit the FB into the space vacated by the IF. Since the FB marking the IF will get pulled inside by the IF, the FB will have loads of space to push to the by-line for a cross.

Also, leaving the right winger on attack also adds more dynamic play because he will be more direct than the IF-A. If you are constantly passing short and never going direct, the opposing manager will recognize that and adjust.

Just as above reply, Structured and Control.

I set my striker up as DF because my star man Zac Clough is injured who I wanted to use as either a DLF or False 9, and the two I am left with (Gary Madine and Jamie Proctor) are both best suited to Target man roles. I found however that whilst set as Target man, it encouraged to quick high ball up to them even more, so went back to their next best role that I thought could work which was DF, keep it simple, lay it off and move, create space. Doesn't seem to suit them though. Not sure how to get the best out of them...

Regarding your IF on support, do you see him getting into the box? I put him on Attack as I wanted to make sure he acted like a second striker in the final third if the ball went out wide to my right sided winger (on support).

 

[Bigpapa42]

Some problems may relate to using Structured. Although they will be closer together on the pitch (defender to striker), they will have a great separation of intent. The more structured the system, the more you will see defending players only defend and attacking players only attack. As kryptoh points out, that might be why you see defenders hoof the ball away rather than playing it.

Given your intent of how you want to play, I would probably try Fluid. You are giving all players more creative freedom, so a defender with some eccentric tendencies becomes more likely to indulge those. But it will give your defenders a bit more freedom on the ball.

I've had good luck with a Defnesive Forward in a counter-based system, where I just wanted them to work hard out of possession and was mostly looking for them to contribute in attack on a counter. With a system where you want/expect more of the ball, I don't know that its ideal. DLF or CF would be my bets. Even if the players you have aren't "suited" to those roles.

 

[teaves31]

Some problems may relate to using Structured. Although they will be closer together on the pitch (defender to striker), they will have a great separation of intent. The more structured the system, the more you will see defending players only defend and attacking players only attack. As kryptoh points out, that might be why you see defenders hoof the ball away rather than playing it.

Given your intent of how you want to play, I would probably try Fluid. You are giving all players more creative freedom, so a defender with some eccentric tendencies becomes more likely to indulge those. But it will give your defenders a bit more freedom on the ball.

I've had good luck with a Defnesive Forward in a counter-based system, where I just wanted them to work hard out of possession and was mostly looking for them to contribute in attack on a counter. With a system where you want/expect more of the ball, I don't know that its ideal. DLF or CF would be my bets. Even if the players you have aren't "suited" to those roles.

Ok thanks for your advice I will give it a try and see what happens.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Ok thanks for your advice I will give it a try and see what happens.

Also meant to mention - Rashidii has a great YouTube series called Bust the Net where he talks tactics quite a lot. The way he explains mentality is that it basically boils down to risk. A more attacking mentality means the players will take more risk - which connects to playing at a higher tempo. Lower mentalities lower the risk. So you can use a Counter or Defensive mentality without actually being negative or truly defensive. The way SI labels and explains can be misleading, unfortunately. So you may actually get more of the patient, methodical passing play you want by dropping the mentality a notch or two.

I've used Very Fluid systems since FM2016 and have had really good results with Standard and Counter mentalities. Even Defensive at times.

 

[teaves31]

Well quick update... nothing appears to have changed. I have won one and lost two. So I have quit after the last defeat to reload and try and work out what the **** is going wrong for me when even you guys have taken a look and cannot see anything drastically wrong.

Since changing my IF to support, he has had no effect on the game, and my Winger on attack has 10 pace and acceleration... who has also become largely ineffective. The issue I have is that having my full back overlap whilst my IF was on support actually created a goal in the 2-0 win I had.

I have also noticed two things in the match engine that I haven't been able to address.
1. My full backs taking throw ins and just giving it away 50-60% of the time in the attacking half.
2. 3 of the last 4 goals I have conceded have been from wide play, a ball whipped into the near post and an opposition striker scoring a tap in from 3 yards...

Again, any suggestions would be great. I must repeat, I am in no way an expert as you can probably tell, and am probably sounding frustrated. I am not, I am just trying to explain best I can what is happening in my matches.

Lastly, my assistant (and rightly so) has pointed out in all the last three matches that we haven't done a good job of keeping possession... it is all still a bit too hit and hope.

Anyway, going back to my original post title... do I just need more patience and hope that my tactics will eventually bear fruit when its trained and understood? Or is there something else happening which is buggering my team up.

 

[kryptoh]

I'll try to hit on everything in the new posts.

Your target man will make a great DLF. Try it. Just because you give him that role, doesn't mean he won't play it using his strengths. He'll play it very much like a target man. You may need to tell him to dribble less if he gets too crazy. If the more risky passes PI is too much, teach him to play easier passes. If you put him on attack, you have more flexibility with the instructions, but he won't really be playing it too simple anymore. He'll be attacking and making runs to get on the end of crosses. Yoou can teach him plays with back to goal also.

Yes, the IF will get in the box. That reminds me, I think I remember you saying you did narrow width because you want him to get into the box. Don't do that. He'll get into the box fine without changing the shape. He should be combining with the striker, midfield, and scoring on far post crosses from the winger. In that formation, you can get away with putting the left IF on attack and the FB if you want. You just need good cover. You can put the DM as DLP-D or AM or DM-D, and then the left CM on support and tell him to hold position. You can then tell the right CM to be more aggressive and there will be more space for him to make runs into the box because the one holding position won't get in his way.

The match engine. The person who said that structured puts your players closer together is wrong. If you haven't already, go read Lines and Diamonds. It's Cleon's manual regarding the match engine. Standard/Flexible is the neutral point, and really, it's the baseline when I start every tactic. The more structured you go, the further apart your players become and vice versa. Also, the less creative they become, which the poster was correct about. To achieve what you want, you should be doing flexible or fluid in my opinion. That then leads to your mentality. On control, going along with what I said above, defenders will hold onto the ball better, more prone to play out of the back, but your attackers will also become more direct. And that relationship continues the further you go. So, if you go to counter, more direct defenders, very possession attackers. Defend mentality, very direct defenders, super super possession attackers. The best way to get around the defenders hoofing it is to use the play out instruction, which you already are. That's great, but you might be going too direct because of being on control. For me personally, I have a hard time getting control to work for pure, possession football. To get it close I have to use play out back, less direct, lower tempo.

I find my best possession tactics start with Standard, Flexible, shorter passing, play out of defense. The baseline is normal tempo but this changes game-by-game. I adjust the tempo based on how the opposition is playing me. If they are pressing me then playing slower will cause them to tackle hard and cause a lot of turnovers. Then I increase the tempo so they get rid of the ball before they get tackled. If I can't get around the press with a quicker tempo, then I need to switch to a direct tactic until they stop pressing me. And if you are using a TM as a DLF, then using him in a direct tactic will be fantastic adjustment. Did I mention I love target man? Another way to beat the press? Wider shape, pass into space. Sometimes that creates enough movement to beat the press, if not then I can try increasing the tempo a notch. Oh also, sometimes I have to lower the tempo because they're sitting back and not pressing at all. So you lower the tempo to hold onto the ball longer, which eventually brings somebody to close you down, which you need in order to create space and break their shape, so it goes both ways. I teach my team to play at low tempo, normal, and high tempo so I can change in mid-match and have it be fluid.

The AI is constantly adjusting against you. Are you watching their formation and do you notice when they change it? I keep the formation window up and I notice when they even change duties on their player roles. Or, they decide they want to switch from a 4-4-2 to a narrow diamond. My possession tactic is going to have a hard time controlling the middle of the pitch against that. I need to widen, put two wingers on the flanks, play more direct, and smack crosses quickly to the target man. If you don't adjust, you WILL lose. The match engine is getting so much more interesting now. If you make a super great tactic, by mid-season it will be useless. In games, you can start out matches great and you can see as time goes on that they are adjusting during the game. By the second half, you have to switch because they figured you out.

My last suggestion is that you NEED to find a solid tactic in preseason. Why? Because you can play against inferior opposition, so you can see if your tactic is working against lower skilled players. Because really, if you can't play well against them, then your tactic sucks. If your tactic passes that test, then it's ready to be tweaked for better competition. And don't just play against chumps in friendlies. Keep challenging with better opponents during friendlies to keep pushing your tactic.

 

[Igneos79]

I would use a formation with nobody in DM or WB position. Structured, counter, shorter passing, play wider, higher tempo, deeper line, close down more...roles like sks, fbs, cdd, cmd, wma or wa, ama, and dlfs...or any other nonroaming role provided you keep these duties...

 

[teaves31]

Well for the first 45 minutes of my next game, your advice worked. I certainly saw more of the style I was after.
Vela (one of centre mids) gave the ball away too often so add fewer risky passes PPM. IT seemed to have the desired effect.
Anyway, went in at half time 1-0 up away at Charlton, and scored a second after 47 minutes in the second half.

The game changed when they brought Lookman on off the bench to play upfront with Ajose. Although Ajose continued to offer little for them, Lookman was being hit behind my defence all second half and the game finished 2-2.

Now, my head said "drop deeper and just see the game out". My heart however didn't want to change what seemed to be working so well in the first half... and I paid the price.
One of their goals was a joke though, a cross that hit my Full Back, then again off my Centre Back and in went in as an O.G. (is this were I insert the 'game hates me' catchphrase?)

Anyway, I have one more question... I look a mess at the back on set-pieces... I am fearing for my life every time the opposition has a corner, yet when we have one, straight into the keepers arms, or it is cleared away.
Any basic advise for set-pieces that seems to work for people?

 

[Bigpapa42]

Yeah, I flipped that around on mentality and vertical closeness. My bad.

The more Structured the selected Team Shape is, less creative freedom is added to each of your players and the more spread out they will be from front to back.

 

[teaves31]

Another game, another display without controlling possession and goals being scored from low crosses into the near post for their striker to tap in from 3 yards...

 

[teaves31]

I've now played another game, reloaded it three times with different systems. I've come to the conclusion (possibly rash conclusion) that the style and set up I'm after isn't going to work with Bolton, or it could say 15-20 games into the season when it would be too late as I'm expected to get promoted.

So slight change of formation, we look less likely to concede but creating chances is still a bit low. We eventually won 1-0 and limited the opposition to many chances. I have a lot more full circles (accomplished in position) on the screen now and playing controlled fluid 4-4-1-1, higher tempo, slightly deeper, higher tempo, close down more. Set as below:

DLF(a)
AM(a)
W(a) DLP(d) CM(s) W(a)
FB(s) CD(d) CD(d) FB(s)
GK (d)

Ideally I'd play with Target man as that's both strikers preferred role... However it feels as though we lump it forward more often... Any truth to this or am I being paranoid?
Also not sure if I had enough attack duties as my dlf was on support... Changed it him to attack but couldn't see much difference (Watched whole game not just guessing from highlights).

My last issue/worry I have now even though it is supposedly his preferred/best role, is my DLP in centre mid. He's not actually that good, his attributes to play that role aren't as good as you'd expect. I could go for AP behind my striker instead of just attacking midfielder, was worried we'd lack any build up play.

Any help appreciated again.

 

[poultney85]

Possession rarely works for me below Championship

Hi,
In my experience using a shorter passing, retain possession system rarely works in the lower leagues as the players don't have the technique or passing stats to play that way. but hey! it could just be my tactics! XD

whereas I rarely fail with a fast direct approach. boring but seems to get the job done.

 

[teaves31]

Hi,
In my experience using a shorter passing, retain possession system rarely works in the lower leagues as the players don't have the technique or passing stats to play that way. but hey! it could just be my tactics! XD

whereas I rarely fail with a fast direct approach. boring but seems to get the job done.

I cannot get anything to work on here anymore, whether I try possession football or fast we constantly just give the ball away. And lose to teams that we should be beating comfortably

 

[Zinedine Zaiddin]

In my FM11 save, if I have 2 players at wings, I will set one IF with Attack and Winger with Support.

I assume winger with support will provide more crosses or through passes without dribbling that much, while IF with Attack role will keep piercing in from right or left side into the box to just tap the ball in, in case my winger do early crosses.

Not sure how the match engine differs for FM17, but I dont think IF support will do much.