The Counter Attack Debate

[champschamp]

OK, over the past few months Ive been reading countless pages on other people's views on how to play counter attacking football.

I'm hoping a tactical genius can come along and enlighten me on this gray area

There seems to be two common trends.

1: High pressing, high defensive line, fast direct passing
2: Stand of opponent, deep defensive line, slow short passing

Now these two are obviously complete opposites and I feel to achieve a true counter attacking tactic you need a little bit of both, but how is it possible to translate this into an FM tactic?

In my opinion a counter attacking team should sit back and stand of there opponent in a well organized narrow shape waiting for the opportunity to nick the ball and brake with fast direct runs and passes, this is not hard to achieve in an FM tactic but the problem lies with how you play when you haven't got a counter attacking opportunity.

I would like my team to pass out from the back working the ball forward without taking to much risk, short passing and a slow tempo are required here but how can I possibly combine this with fast counter attacking football?

Ive come to the conclusion that this is just not possible which really frustrates me and I hope i'm wrong so is there anyone out there who can help me with this problem......?

 

[WJ]

Ive come to the conclusion that this is just not possible which really frustrates me and I hope i'm wrong so is there anyone out there who can help me with this problem......?

Why do you think it isn't possible? It's quite clear from just watching a match.

If you play with a Defensive or Counter mentality, you'll be narrow and deep. Everything will be low risk. When the counter criteria is met, tempo and mentality are maxed out so you'll see fast *breaks and players flooding forward.

 

[champschamp]

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what your saying, what I don't understand is how to slow things down when you haven't got a counter attacking opportunity.

If, like you said the tempo and mentality are 'maxed out' how does that help me when the opponent has all 11 players behind the ball and I want to slow things down, you cant play a full 90 minute at 100 mph.

For example
Arsenals invincible:
They played a short patient passing game when in possession but played very fast direct passing on the break, for me thats two different styles you cant simply translate into a FM tactic

 

[WJ]

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what your saying, what I don't understand is how to slow things down when you haven't got a counter attacking opportunity.

If, like you said the tempo and mentality are 'maxed out' how does that help me when the opponent has all 11 players behind the ball and I want to slow things down, you cant play a full 90 minute at 100 mph.

For example
Arsenals invincible:
They played a short patient passing game when in possession but played very fast direct passing on the break, for me thats two different styles you cant simply translate into a FM tactic

I said the tempo and mentality gets maxed out WHEN THE COUNTER CRITERIA IS MET. That means when you gain possession, if your players are equal or more than their defenders at the back, the counter-attack "kicks in".

All the other times the passing will be default for the mentality (which is basically direct and the back and short up front for Defensive and Counter) unless you select play out of defence in which case it'll be basically short everywhere. Tempo will also be low by default.

 

[louiscfc]

This is a main feature that needs to be included in FM2015. There needs to be 2 parts to a tactic; with and without the ball. Like counter attacking but also for basic player instructions such as a winger tucking in without the ball but pushing out wide without it. Or a striker playing on the last man with the ball but dropping into the midfield without it. Such an important aspect to real life football yet it isnt in the game.

 

[awalker14]

Don't mix the two!

Use *1* for an attacking counter attacking tactic
Use *2* as an defensive counter attacking tactic

Also on a side note with number *2* don't use "shorter passing" or "play from the back"

 

[WJ]

This is a main feature that needs to be included in FM2015. There needs to be 2 parts to a tactic; with and without the ball. Like counter attacking but also for basic player instructions such as a winger tucking in without the ball but pushing out wide without it. Or a striker playing on the last man with the ball but dropping into the midfield without it. Such an important aspect to real life football yet it isnt in the game.

This is all already in the game. Everything you mentioned.

Without ball is the formation you set. With ball is the roles/duties.

If you're wanting something as defensive as a striker dropping into midfield, use a Defensive mentality or go strikerless. Same goes for the winger. Defensive width is set by your Mentality and the opposition formation. If I use Defensive/Counter mentality, my team defends the width of the 18-yard area. You can set his instructions to Stay Wider, so that he drifts wide in possession.

 

[louiscfc]

This is all already in the game. Everything you mentioned.

Without ball is the formation you set. With ball is the roles/duties.

If you're wanting something as defensive as a striker dropping into midfield, use a Defensive mentality or go strikerless. Same goes for the winger. Defensive width is set by your Mentality and the opposition formation. If I use Defensive/Counter mentality, my team defends the width of the 18-yard area. You can set his instructions to Stay Wider, so that he drifts wide in possession.

No, changing the mentality is not the fluid interchange I am on about. And going strikerless doesn't really make any sense to what I said as this isn't a permanent change. IRL the transition of the team with and without the ball is smooth and doesn't rely on the manager changing the mentality but rather a preset tactic which flows naturally throughout the game. Going defensive will mean the team drops back and goes 'defensive' but not all teams necessarily do this but instead play narrower and more compact without necessarily dropping back.

 

[WJ]

No, changing the mentality is not the fluid interchange I am on about. And going strikerless doesn't really make any sense to what I said as this isn't a permanent change. IRL the transition of the team with and without the ball is smooth and doesn't rely on the manager changing the mentality but rather a preset tactic which flows naturally throughout the game. Going defensive will mean the team drops back and goes 'defensive' but not all teams necessarily do this but instead play narrower and more compact without necessarily dropping back.

You cannot be narrow and compact without being defensive? That's the whole point of being narrow and compact! You can still set your team up to be quite wide in possession though and the defensive mentality will ensure that everyone falls back quite deep. It's a lot more fluid than you give it credit for. It'll be even wider on the counter as mentality will be maxed out too.

 

[louiscfc]

You cannot be narrow and compact without being defensive? That's the whole point of being narrow and compact! You can still set your team up to be quite wide in possession though and the defensive mentality will ensure that everyone falls back quite deep. It's a lot more fluid than you give it credit for. It'll be even wider on the counter as mentality will be maxed out too.

Of course you can be narrow and compact without being defensive. A good example, as I watch them every week, is Chelsea. Not against stronger teams where we are defensive (park the bus and what not) but against the weaker teams. As soon as Chelsea lose the ball Hazard and Schurrle/Willian would tuck in, the FBs would also tuck in, Oscar would pull back to a more CM position and Torres would drop off putting pressure on the CBs/CMs. Jose Mourinho isn't going defensive when the team does this. The defensive line doesn't necessarily drop like it would on FM, the team still presses high up the pitch. They are simply making themselves more compact in the midfield so the opposition cannot play through. Is that changing the whole mentality to 'defensive' where the team drops off and allows the other team to come onto them? No. And then as soon as they win the ball back it fluidly changes back with Hazard out wide on the left, Schurrle on the right, Oscar in the channels and Torres on the last man. Quick, counter attacking football. If you did it as you say and keep changing the mentalities when you win and lose the ball this is not a fluid change as it takes a while for these changes to come into place and by that time you have missed the opportunity to counter as the opposition have either dug in or won the ball back themselves and you'd be spending the whole match changing mentalities. On FM2015, if you simply had a formation and roles in the tactics screen with and without the ball this could be a quick easy transition where the players know their positions depending on the situation as they have learned the tactic.

 

[WJ]

Of course you can be narrow and compact without being defensive. A good example, as I watch them every week, is Chelsea. Not against stronger teams where we are defensive (park the bus and what not) but against the weaker teams. As soon as Chelsea lose the ball Hazard and Schurrle/Willian would tuck in, the FBs would also tuck in, Oscar would pull back to a more CM position and Torres would drop off putting pressure on the CBs/CMs. Jose Mourinho isn't going defensive when the team does this. The defensive line doesn't necessarily drop like it would on FM, the team still presses high up the pitch. They are simply making themselves more compact in the midfield so the opposition cannot play through. Is that changing the whole mentality to 'defensive' where the team drops off and allows the other team to come onto them? No. And then as soon as they win the ball back it fluidly changes back with Hazard out wide on the left, Schurrle on the right, Oscar in the channels and Torres on the last man. Quick, counter attacking football. If you did it as you say and keep changing the mentalities when you win and lose the ball this is not a fluid change as it takes a while for these changes to come into place and by that time you have missed the opportunity to counter as the opposition have either dug in or won the ball back themselves and you'd be spending the whole match changing mentalities. On FM2015, if you simply had a formation and roles in the tactics screen with and without the ball this could be a quick easy transition where the players know their positions depending on the situation as they have learned the tactic.

Okay, seriously, what are you on about? Where have I said that you have to change mentalities every time you win or lose the ball?

What you are describing is still a counter mentality!

 

[louiscfc]

Okay, seriously, what are you on about? Where have I said that you have to change mentalities every time you win or lose the ball?

What you are describing is still a counter mentality!

Well your talking about setting a 'defensive' mentality even though the examples I have given you are not defensive but simply 2 very different formations with and without the ball, a feature I feel should be added. If in FM right now I set my team up with a defensive mentality this will not then change when I have the ball to a controlled mentality like it would IRL which is what I am trying to say. You would have to change it manually in FM, you still with me? I'm not saying that you said you'd have to keep changing mentalities, I'm saying that I would have to if I wanted to pursue this tactic in the game.

 

[WJ]

Well your talking about setting a 'defensive' mentality even though the examples I have given you are not defensive but simply 2 very different formations with and without the ball, a feature I feel should be added. If in FM right now I set my team up with a defensive mentality this will not then change when I have the ball to a controlled mentality like it would IRL which is what I am trying to say. You would have to change it manually in FM, you still with me? I'm not saying that you said you'd have to keep changing mentalities, I'm saying that I would have to if I wanted to pursue this tactic in the game.

I said the formation you set is the "without ball" or defensive formation. You're describing a counter mentality! They'll be narrow and compact without the ball and wider on the counter. Team and Player Instructions can further aid exactly how you want to play.