The Question: What next for 4-4-2?

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Zebedee post me the link in a thread, but with the upcoming season, and with the england national side seemingly looking for a new style to identify itself with, feel its worth a thread of its own:

The Question: What next for 4-4-2?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/jul/14/the-question-what-next-for-442

This was a bad World Cup for a lot of old favourites – anybody who appeared on the Nike ad, Marcello Lippi, preconceptions about Africa – but none of them had quite such a miserable tournament as 4-4-2. When even its old friend Michael Owen starts doubting it, the future for the formation that has ruled British football for 40 years looks bleak.

Johan Cruyff got stuck in as well last week – not particularly surprisingly given his lifelong ideological insistence on 4-3-3 – pointing out that "the numbers don't match up" and explaining that a system of three straight bands doesn't lend itself to the creation of passing triangles. This has always been an axiom: all else being equal, a triangle will always beat a line, and the Cruyff mode of play has always been predicated on the creation of triangles. A 4-2-3-1, with its W shape in midfield, is essentially comprised of interlocking triangles.

Which raises the question of why, if 4-4-2's disadvantages are so obvious, it has survived for so long? To start with, it should be made clear that Cruyff is speaking about his particular vision of football, which is rooted in ball possession and pressing, something that caused him, even before the game, to align himself with Spain rather than Holland in the World Cup final. That is one way to play – and the recent success of Barcelona and Spain shows it is a successful way to play – but it certainly isn't the only way. That a short-passing, technique-based game isn't for everybody was demonstrated very clearly in a tournament in which many people preferred the more dynamic, if more reactive, football of Germany.

Those passing triangles are only important for a side looking to dominate possession. For a side looking to disrupt that, 4-4-2 can be extremely effective – the famous "two banks of four" that for a long time seemed to be such a feature of any English team playing an away game in European competition. Fulham showed last season how effective the style can still be. Sit the midfield line deep on the back four so there is minimal space between the lines for attacking midfielders or deep-lying forwards to exploit, and it becomes very hard to penetrate. It doesn't matter how many triangles you create if you never get the ball closer than 35 yards from the opposition goal.

Think of Gérard Houllier's Liverpool away to Roma in the Uefa Cup in 2001, with Owen and Robbie Fowler left high upfield, often 50 yards and more from the midfield: keep it tight, make sure of the clean sheet, and if, as in that case, Owen can pilfer two goals, that's a bonus. Think of Fulham in the Europa League semi-final against Hamburg.

Slovenia's method both in qualifying and at this World Cup, although slightly more possession-based, wasn't dissimilar, particularly after Zlatan Ljubijankic had replaced Zlatko Dedic. Ljubijankic is a more technical player and a better finisher than Dedic, but he doesn't drop off and doesn't forage which, at least against England – a game in which Slovenia played with such trepidation you wondered if anybody had told them Stan Mortensen and Tom Finney had retired – left Valter Birsa's occasional forays on the right as the only bridge between midfield and attack.

Sacchi's squeeze and the modern stretch

So 4-4-2 has a future as a reactive formation, yet it was also the preferred formation of Arrigo Sacchi, probably the most proactive coach of all. It was the system's defensive attributes, though, that made it work for him. The great strength of the Milan of the late 80s was its pressing, with Sacchi demanding an ideal of 25 metres from centre-forward to centre-back when his side were out of possession. They squeezed high up the pitch, and so 4-4-2 made sense because a four-man midfield meant each member of the back four was protected by a midfielder and so was less likely to be isolated (which, with acres of space behind him, was a real concern).

Possession was less of a concern for Sacchi. I recently watched Milan's 5-0 victory over Real Madrid in the second leg of the semi-final of the 1989 European Cup, and was struck by how often (comparatively speaking) they gave the ball away. Madrid, for long periods, looked the better side on the ball, but were undone by the dynamism of Sacchi's side (although 5-0 was still a freakish scoreline). It's probably the case that, as Egil Olsen posited in a more pragmatic context, a team have to choose between prioritising possession and position on the field.

Pressing is still part of the game, and Barcelona and Spain both perform the high press excellently, but it has been made harder to execute because of the liberalisation of the offside law. The effective playing area has been stretched, and as a result, three-band systems have increasingly been replaced by four-band systems.

Perhaps it is just about conceivable that, if players could be persuaded to put their egos to one side (and that could be an issue for Roy Hodgson if he attempts to apply the Fulham system at Liverpool this season), a club team could still be drilled into an effective pressing 4-4-2, but achieving that level of discipline is an exhausting, demoralisingly boring process that became too much even for Milan after three seasons; it was very hard to implement then, with the change in the offside law and players enjoying greater freedom to change clubs it is even harder now. At international level, anyway, where the time available to work with players is limited and they are fatigued by club commitments, it is impossible, something even Sacchi was forced to acknowledge.

4-4-2 isn't dead

What the World Cup has done is to expose the problems 4-4-2 without hard pressing faces, and not just in terms of being outnumbered in midfield; with the stretching of the effective playing area, the midfield band can become exposed, with space in front of it and space behind it. That gap between defensive and midfield lines was precisely the space Mesut Ozil exploited so well in the first half of Germany's victory over England (this space, as Matthias Sindelar, Alfred Bickel, Laszlo Kubala, Nandor Hidegkuti, Pelé, Günter Netzer,Diego Maradona, Ruud Gullit, Zinedine Zidane, Rui Costa and Juan Román Riquelme and countless others have demonstrated, has always been a problem for England, and that weakness is one of the reasons Eric Cantona, Dennis Bergkamp and Gianfranco Zola were so successful in the Premier League in the 90s). Quite apart from the furious search for immediate justice that followed the non-award of a goal after Frank Lampard's shot had crossed the line, it may be that a desire to compress that area was partly behind England's suicidally high line in the second half of that game.

And yet when the Premier League begins again next month, probably around half the sides will be playing 4-4-2, and not all as a stifling tactic. That is not because of a lack of tactical sophistication, or at least not just because of a lack of tactical sophistication: 4-4-2, to those brought up in Britain, is the default; it's what every player is brought up to understand. A five-man midfield, however it is arrayed, brings its own problems, perhaps most obviously that it can be difficult, particularly for less technical teams, to get men forward to support the lone striker.

Below the very highest level, it may be that it is better simply to let players do what comes naturally. Then there is the issue of personnel, particularly at clubs with a relatively limited budget. At Sunderland, for instance, Steve Bruce may like the idea of 4-2-3-1, but when he has Kenwyne Jones and Darren Bent forming a potent partnership, it makes little sense to disrupt it, even if the corollary is that he occasionally loses control of midfield. Sunderland's form last season notably improved when Steed Malbranque moved to the left and began cutting infield, effectively giving Sunderland an auxiliary central midfielder and bringing them greater control in the centre.

So 4-4-2 isn't dead, but the World Cup confirmed that the trend of the past decade at the highest level is against it.
 
Harry Redknapp will still use it in the Premier League as he still likes his big man little man up front. Not sure if he is going to change the formation around a little for the Champions League but I feel he might have to.
 
Harry Redknapp will still use it in the Premier League as he still likes his big man little man up front. Not sure if he is going to change the formation around a little for the Champions League but I feel he might have to.
united still use it, but ours is basically zona mista, rather than the big man little man traditional combo. i actuall think that there will be a resurgence of the two man striker force in 3-5 years. lone strikers formations set up in the manner of spain and brazil are notoriously hard to break down, and zona mista, if implemented properly is actually a good formation to counter then.

my guess is thats what capello tried to do, but he overestimated the abilty and the temperament of our players
 
4-4-2 sucks, it makes attractive passing football impossible and relies on direct route one football, which is United only won the Carling Cup last season, relying on the wingers to create everything with nothing going through the centre of the pitch. But then it is very diificult for United to go through the centre of the pitch as the players United have in the centre of midfield are of such a low quality.
 
4-4-2 sucks, it makes attractive passing football impossible and relies on direct route one football, which is United only won the Carling Cup last season, relying on the wingers to create everything with nothing going through the centre of the pitch. But then it is very diificult for United to go through the centre of the pitch as the players United have in the centre of midfield are of such a low quality.
ok, you clearly havent read the article and dont know what you are talking about, so dont spam my thread
 
4-4-2 still has it's place. I think a lot is made of 4-5-1 type formations, but all formations have advantages and disadvantages. In the past 4-5-1 was always a formation used when playing against much superior opposition. I think it has a lot more to do with the players in the team. It's no good setting up a 4-5-1 if you don't have players who are suited to the positions.
 
Is 4-4-2 obsolete?

Aot of people have been saying englands problem this world cup was the formation.what do you guys think?do you think capello played the wrong formation or do you thing he maybe played more or less the right formation but not in the right way.i personaly thinkit was more or less the right shape but there was not enough movement in between the lines and when england started the second half 2-1 down they played as if there were only 2mins left on the clock and went gung-ho and were easily countered on.im sure capello didnt tell them to do it.I dont know how to explain this but i thought england were game stupid.your thoughts?
 
i must admit i think the 4-4-2 will be dead in the next 10 years internationally. in britain we are quite traditional about the way we play, and when an italian tried to implement fresh tactical impetus into the sie, he found out we are a nation that struggles when it comes to complex tactics. for example, could england have succesfully used a 4-2-3-1 for example? we havent really got a standout defensive midfielder. yes barry for example can play there, but when he is asked to perform certain duties he struggles, because at club level in england, he doesnt have to. his task for man city is simple, whereas someone like de jong or viera, a foreiner (sp) who is perhaps more used to adapting to tactics, plays it for him. hard to explain really, and i dont think ive done a very good job. anyway, this is just my take on things and i could be, and probably am, completely wrong
 
You could go on all day about what went wrong, really.

I personally think it was the wrong formation. Not because it's a bad formation, but because the players we had weren't suited to it. Especially when you're going to stick Gerrard on the left. Rooney looked like he wanted to play on his own and we all know where Gerrard wants to be; sitting in behind him.

Due to the constant media pressure to change the formation, I think that's the precise reason Capello didn't change the formation. He wants to be seen as his own manager, not being told what to do by anyone, and sometimes he just seems to go too far.

He's been brilliant at getting players who don't usually play in a certain position to change, and change well. Note: Marcus Desailly at AC Milan was a centre-back before Capello made him into a world-class defensive midfielder. If Capello really believes Gerrard is best on the left, then so be it, but I don't think he does. He wants to fit the best eleven players into a team rather than put players in that suit the formation. If you deadset want a 4-4-2, then pick actual wingers to play on the wing FFS.

But yeh, I reckon the formation was right, the players picked in those positions were wrong. Or, the formation was wrong, but the players picked were right. They didn't fit together.
 
i must admit i think the 4-4-2 will be dead in the next 10 years internationally. in britain we are quite traditional about the way we play, and when an italian tried to implement fresh tactical impetus into the sie, he found out we are a nation that struggles when it comes to complex tactics. for example, could england have succesfully used a 4-2-3-1 for example? we havent really got a standout defensive midfielder. yes barry for example can play there, but when he is asked to perform certain duties he struggles, because at club level in england, he doesnt have to. his task for man city is simple, whereas someone like de jong or viera, a foreiner (sp) who is perhaps more used to adapting to tactics, plays it for him. hard to explain really, and i dont think ive done a very good job. anyway, this is just my take on things and i could be, and probably am, completely wrong
i posted a thread which has a very good article about it from johnathan wilson. its not dead, but the requirements for the 4-4-2 are high at the top level. re: your point about it disappearing, on the contrary, in 4-5 season i feelwe will see a rebirth of the 2 striker formations, since they are the only way to overpower the lopsided 4-2-3-1s of spain and brazil etc.

capello imo, wasnt being traditional, he was actually being ambitious. i believe he was trying to implement a lop side 4-4-2 in the manchester united play, similar to zona mista however it requires supreme discipline and work rate (which half our players lack), tactical responsibility. we do have the players for it, but they were injured or off form. in an ideal world neither gerrard or lampard would have played. and the midfield would have been barry, carrick hargreaves milner. and rooney and zamora up front

its weird because we do have players with goos tactical aware, particularly the united players, who play in various formations throughout the season (we played at least 4 very different formation and approaches this season)

EDIT: this is the thread i put up: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/f18/the-question-what-next-for-4-4-2-t41990.html
 
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Idk if i'd agree that 4-4-2 is obselete now, but you can't play that against a 4-5-1 german team, and that's why we lost. Coupled with the fact a 4-4-1-1 would suit our players much better anyway.
 
Whats the point of putting gerrard to play lmc on the paper when he always wanders around in the middle of the pitch anyway unless he happens to get ball when he is on the flank.
 
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