Why can't FM tactics reflect real life tactics just a little bit??

[strick2k]

Evening boys and girls, I don't know whether this will get published as it is something of a rant but, as a CM/FM player for 15 years I have got to the point where I am actually going mental.

FM brands itself on being a football simulator or words to that effect, but is it? I'm no mug, I have been watching football since 1989 (yes I'm old) and throughout the years of FM I've been able to recreate, albeit sometimes loosely, tactics that have evolved over the years successfully.

I do love trawling the forums for new tactics and interpretations of how people see the game, it's what makes places like FM Base brilliant, but in this years version I am at the end of my tether.

Maybe this rant is a result of my own tactical failings in FM13, I can honestly say I've not finished a season with my own tactic due to either huge inconsistency or because they are downright useless. I check the forums everyday to see if someone has created a tactic that reflects one in real life - with consistent success, but alas, there has only been Arrigo Sacchi 442 that has brought me genuine, time tested results. The problem I have with Sacchi is although the philisophies are correct, I would like to have more flexibility over player roles and the Trequarista remake has simply not done it for me.

Now I know there are plenty of tactics on here that 'work' but to what extent do they mirror anything when you watch a game live or on TV? Not much in my opinion.

I think of the teams over years that I admire, from Wenger's invincibles, basically a 442 but with cutting inside wingers, a ball winner/b2b and a deep lying forward/trequarista, to Mourinho's direct 4231, to Fergie's 442 over the years, alongside the high pressing possession based Guardiola's Barca and more recently the Bayern pressing machine. Christ, I'd even take my beloved Bolton's Big Sam 451/433 big boot if it worked.

I would just like, for once, to be able to base a tactic on the way I see football should be played, with the correct players and be moderately successful.

Is it impossible or do we accept that the 'best' tactics are those that exploit the ME and subsequently take away the enjoyment of what we consider to be our perception of tactics in football?

Big applause to guys like Raikan, mate your effort is unparalleled in trying to recreate actual team tactics, but sadly for me they just don't work.

I know this is like reading an essay and if it's pointless then sorry, I'm sure a mod will remove it.

Final thought before I go and load up another game, 4231 is probably the most used formation of the past few years and I would genuinely love to make a working, TC version of this without tinkering too much if poss, any advice would be appreciated!

 

[jozzy98]

absoloutly agree with all of that! big thumbs up

 

[Mike.]

They can and do reflect real life football. All the time.

It's not impossible, its actually relatively easy.

From my personal collection I have a typical 4-2-3-1, a 4-4-2 Arsenal invincibles and a Real Madrid 4-2-3-1 deep, I also have Spain 4-2-3-1, and Bolton 4-3-3 that I built for someone else, and I did have a Napoli 3-4-2-1. All of which mirror how they play in real life very well. And I'm not the only one. Have a look at the SI forums. People do it all the time.

The problem is too many people try and make plug and play versions. These setups in real life are not plug and play, they are concepts, that shift as the game changes. As soon as people realise that, thats when you realise just how close to reality it actually is.

 

[strick2k]

Fair play to you Mike, I just feel like with the tactic creator it should allow for you to make a decent tactic, to me it doesn't. Personally I don't want to get into all the 'oh I'll put his mentality up one notch' and all that, it's not why I play it.

I understand that most teams adapt different ways of playing, especially if it's against a similar strength team. But to me the intro of the TC should enable the more casual or time-starved gamer the chance to try and emulate a team's style of play without having to adjust 1-20 sliders to get results.

 

[Mike.]

Fair play to you Mike, I just feel like with the tactic creator it should allow for you to make a decent tactic, to me it doesn't. Personally I don't want to get into all the 'oh I'll put his mentality up one notch' and all that, it's not why I play it.

I understand that most teams adapt different ways of playing, especially if it's against a similar strength team. But to me the intro of the TC should enable the more casual or time-starved gamer the chance to try and emulate a team's style of play without having to adjust 1-20 sliders to get results.

To get a rough concept of a real life set up, you will pretty much never have to adjust or even particularly understand the sliders. You can play with the sliders, but you never have to. I typically advise people not to play with the sliders first off anyway. I havent used the 1-20 sliders since the TC was created, though I do manipulate RFD etc occaisionally. ( this is due to a lack of some roles in the TC for now, so I create my own so to speak).

This isnt a dig at you btw. Using the TC to emulate a set up requires you to know about the footballing concepts that go into what you are creating. And understanding exactly what those concepts will demand from those players. There is no point emulating Barca with Wolves for example. And yet, people try to, and then get annoyed that it doesn't work.

I'm more interesting in the TC set ups that you are failing with. If you get the time, could you post some of them on here and say what you were trying to achieve with them.

Having said all that, the TC could be make much clearer, and the concepts could be much better explained. In fact I believe that FM should be shipped with a second guide detailing basic concepts in football and how they are used in FM, so the play knows what is there. And then he has a base to learn and fail/succeed.

I really should qualify that it's from my perspective that using a concept is relatively easy, and maybe its unfair of me to set that as a universal view

 

[strick2k]

I don't take it as a dig at all, I appreciate feedback of someone who has probably (assumption) had more game time than me to play around with TC and player roles.

When I have the time I'll PM you or post details of the football I am trying to achieve and the teams at which I attempt to implement it.

I completely agree that many gamers will simply try to plug and play a tactic and critique it when they struggle, even if it's a possession based high pressure tactic with Cheltenham (sorry Cheltenham fans), but I don't, I look at each squad, improve it where I deem fit and then create a tactic which suits both the players and satisfies my own interpretation of tactics.

Just no joy so far unfortunately.

 

[Mike.]

I don't take it as a dig at all, I appreciate feedback of someone who has probably (assumption) had more game time than me to play around with TC and player roles.

When I have the time I'll PM you or post details of the football I am trying to achieve and the teams at which I attempt to implement it.

I completely agree that many gamers will simply try to plug and play a tactic and critique it when they struggle, even if it's a possession based high pressure tactic with Cheltenham (sorry Cheltenham fans), but I don't, I look at each squad, improve it where I deem fit and then create a tactic which suits both the players and satisfies my own interpretation of tactics.

Just no joy so far unfortunately.

Create a thread when you have the time, or even just post it back on here. Hopefully I, and others, will be able to give you some good advice

 

[Sweet Blue]

There are a lot of real life tactics in this forum, and of course you will have the real life results for it, and it'll soon become unpopular. Some tactics exploit the match engine a bit and become "not real", but the results are much better and the tactics will be always at the first page.
Enough said.

 

[bricktamland1]

I personally find FM-13 to be the most realistic version yet.
I whole hardheartedly agree with Mike saying "no need to play with the sliders".
From my own 3300+ gaming hours in this version alone I can finally finally finally finally say ... I get it. I understand it now.

When you create a tactic you need the players to slot into the roles you want. If not, you are trying to put a square peg into a round hole. If you do not have the players then use a more basic role.

For example I have settled on a 5-3-2.

However within that 5-3-2 depending on who I have available to me on a given day I may change a role here or there and I do not expect my team to really gel until the tactic is fluid.

As in real life it takes time for a tactic to bed and for players to get a general sense of understanding of one another.

I have finally come to grasps with this and instead of fighting it, I have accepted it, and the game has now become much more than a simple game for me.

I am loving this version.

 

[bricktamland1]

Just to further clarify my post a little bit, since I rarely speak of my own tactical views, here is how I have come to "play" the game....

For example in my 5-3-2 (2 WB, 3 CD, DM, 2 CM, 2 ST)

If I am playing a stronger team ... I will field a physically stronger CML who is better at tackling, marking, teamwork, etc and I am willing to sacrifice some offense.
If I am playing a weaker team .... I will field a more offensive minded CML ...someone who can still tackle a bit but has a little more vision with the ball and might have more offensive PPM's ...

Up front ... if I have a strong ST I will choose him as a TM ...if he is not available .. I change the role to CF ....or AF ..... if my team has a ST who is very pacy .. I change him to a P ...... etc ... these are the things I have started to do over the past several seasons and it has made a world of difference for me.

Instead of taking an average CM and asking him to be a BBM or something ... I make him a CM(S) .... instead of changing the slider to reduce his runs or change his passing etc ... I lower his role to more generic ....
This has DONE wonders for me .... WONDERS.....and I leave the formation all other settings ALONE.....

From the beta (Oct) until May ...roughly 8 months ... I strugggggggled with understanding this concept ... sacked constantly and not winning a single thing hahaha... it was HARD

The last 2 months ....since I created a formation I enjoy ...let it bed .... then filled in the players around it ..and stopped messing with sliders and came to the understanding that is the PLAYERS whom you have ....and how you utilize them into the tactic ... NOT the other way around

I have won appx (off the top of my head) 12 trophies? Champions League, League Titles, Cups, etc all included and using mid table type teams finally and man does it feel good hahahaha.