4-2-1-2-1 Hour Glass Formation

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Montanaro

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Howdy fellas, I'm working on a new tactic for my MTK Hungary save before FM12 comes out.

It goes a little something like this
(I like writing the formation, it's more fun than a screencap!)

RB-----CB----CB------LB
-
-----DM--------DM
-
----------CM
-
-----AM--------AM
-
----------ST

I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with this formation. What roles should I choose for midfielders?

I was thinking one DM would be a destroyer, one DM would be a deep lying playmaker who would sometimes run from deep for support and be able to feed the CM.

The CM I wanted to be the main creative playmaker who could make defense splitting passes and generally dictate tempo. I intend to have a player with 15+ passing in this position

for the AMs, I have them in the "INickStuff's" Second Striker role. They drop deep to link with CM and DM but also make runs and can get out wide to feed crosses or through balls to the striker.

I'm also not real sure on what type of passing distance I should set for each of them or what type of tempo.

Should I play a deep line so I do not compress my midfield and therefore limit passing options and running room?
 
I tried a similar formation in the past but was never really satisfied with the way the team played. The CM was particularly disappointing for me as I wanted him to be the main playmaker but never seemed to perform how I wanted.

For the balance of the team I think the AMs should be AML/R, maybe inside forwards that cut inside possibly opposite foot/side. This way there should be enough space for the CM to make runs from deep and act as an advanced playmaker, which would be difficult with two AMCs ahead of him.

DLP/destroyer sounds good for the defensive midfielders. Then the fullbacks should be more attacking, often running from deep to give more width and passing options.

always liked this formation, just never been able to make it work like I wanted. Let me know if you come up with something interesting ;)
 
I suppose that you are in luck that I'm in a giving mood. I've created the tactic that you want more or less. I'll work on this for the next hour or so then give you what I used. I changed formation using player and team instruction/roles from the 3-4 really kick *** tactics that I have made. Result:

barcelonavmlagainformat.png


barcelonavmlagastatsmat.png


barcelonavmlagastatshom.png


I'll explain the roles I have used. You can see Messi's position. I'd just like to add that this role in this tactic was dogshite and is the only thing I need to change. As for the rest of it, I used a defensive (in the form of interceptions and tackles) roles for both DMs. You can see that both of the 2 DMs were very good in possession too because that's what the role does. It is more or less the Michael Carrick role that I got from Raikan! Anyway these DM roles means I can give more freedom to the two wing backs to get forward whenever possible. As you can see, 2 key passes for Abidal and 1 for Dani Alves means their ability to get forward was pretty vital to the tactic. As a defensive unit, only let them shoot twice. Says everything really. This is mainly due to the nature of the formation.

The CM role that Xavi played in is pretty important going forward. 2 key passes and an assist tells you that. The AMLC was effective, the AMRC wasn't. Need to change the AMRC role. Messi only had 3 passes by half time so it was like I was playing with 10 men really. Villa scored 4 goals. Need I say more?

I literally made this tactic from scratch and this was my first game using it. Though I used more or less the same team instructions as I always do. Here are the familiarity levels:

fcbarcelonabarcelonamat.png


Anyway I'll work on making AMRC more effective, probably just copy the AMLC role really, see how it goes and post it up.
 
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To be fair, I've made completely ridiculous tactics with Barca and had success.

As to Kandersson, I don't want my MC to run from deep very often if at all. I need him to sit in the hole. That's what he does currently in my tactic. When wingbacks have the ball near corner flag, the Striker and 2 Ams are in box, the MC is usually 22-25 yards from goal, and he has the 2 DMs behind him.

If he ran forward he would get lost in the box with the AMs and striker. Instead he's got passing options in all directions (backwards, forwards, and to the wingbacks) Having his mentality at 50% is what is needed. He won't push too far forward or backwards and will only make the occasional supporting run.
 
Montanaro said:
To be fair, I've made completely ridiculous tactics with Barca and had success.

As to Kandersson, I don't want my MC to run from deep very often if at all. I need him to sit in the hole. That's what he does currently in my tactic. When wingbacks have the ball near corner flag, the Striker and 2 Ams are in box, the MC is usually 22-25 yards from goal, and he has the 2 DMs behind him.

If he ran forward he would get lost in the box with the AMs and striker. Instead he's got passing options in all directions (backwards, forwards, and to the wingbacks) Having his mentality at 50% is what is needed. He won't push too far forward or backwards and will only make the occasional supporting run.
Click to expand...

what team are you using? I just auto used barca because i had a game save that i could go straight into a competitive match and they have the players for this formation too lol.
 
MTK in Hungarian 2nd division ^^)

I usually consider any mid table side good for testing.

I haven't got into my league schedule yet, so I haven't tweaked the formation much. Just waiting for the team to learn it first.
 
hey bud, I was messing around a few weeks ago with a similar formation, however I had wingers as this was more of an old fashioned Winger and Target Man type tactic :) playing wide and crossing in, you can change the wingers positions to Am's and change the crossing/width target man delivery etc :)

194699d1315317220-3-defenders-tactics-tactic.png


Lower the d-line to allow for quick counters and even drop the other Striker (remember left is TM settings) to Amc even if you want :) do anything with it if you want to mate :) would like to see what you could do with this type of formation :)

I had very good results using Fiorentina, Stoke and a few other teams :) it was not nearly completed at all , about 50% done as I was just messing around with it...

View attachment 197077
 
add an extra defender in instead of the extra striker would be better as well :) you may get caught out!
 
Raikan007 said:
add an extra defender in instead of the extra striker would be better as well :) you may get caught out!
Click to expand...

I've conceded 3 shots, 2 of them long range and 0 goals in 2 matches with the 4-2-1-2-1 formation (kinda thanks to your "Carrick/Busquets/Makelele" role. Two of them are extremely effective in front of the backline. Comparing with your formation I feel the 4-2-1-2-1 formation is more effective since the "wingers" are wing backs and you have 2 more players up there ready to support an attack. It has scored 7 goals since I won 2-0 next match. Time to tweak and test again this formation in the thread.

PS, to montanaro. CM has been sitting 30 yards from goal in my tactic that I just created.
 
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was thinking of trying this with man u do u think it would work
Raikan007 said:
hey bud, I was messing around a few weeks ago with a similar formation, however I had wingers as this was more of an old fashioned Winger and Target Man type tactic :) playing wide and crossing in, you can change the wingers positions to Am's and change the crossing/width target man delivery etc :)

194699d1315317220-3-defenders-tactics-tactic.png


Lower the d-line to allow for quick counters and even drop the other Striker (remember left is TM settings) to Amc even if you want :) do anything with it if you want to mate :) would like to see what you could do with this type of formation :)

I had very good results using Fiorentina, Stoke and a few other teams :) it was not nearly completed at all , about 50% done as I was just messing around with it...

View attachment 197077
Click to expand...
 
not sure mate, with the correct tweaked instructions I dont see why not? I was 1st with Fiorentina after about 15 games or so using it (and it was still not fluid) and 4th with Stoke after about 10 games or so!

I do suggest bringing in another Cb though and if you use United this would be wasted on the talent in the squad :) for United may I suggest: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...-training/82379-deathslayer%99-raikan007.html
 
ok thanks i did try your deathslayer but it dint go well won fa and lc but came 2nd in epl
Raikan007 said:
not sure mate, with the correct tweaked instructions I dont see why not? I was 1st with Fiorentina after about 15 games or so using it (and it was still not fluid) and 4th with Stoke after about 10 games or so!

I do suggest bringing in another Cb though and if you use United this would be wasted on the talent in the squad :) for United may I suggest: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2011-tactics-training/82379-deathslayer%99-raikan007.html
Click to expand...
 
Raikan007 said:
not sure mate, with the correct tweaked instructions I dont see why not? I was 1st with Fiorentina after about 15 games or so using it (and it was still not fluid) and 4th with Stoke after about 10 games or so!

I do suggest bringing in another Cb though and if you use United this would be wasted on the talent in the squad :) for United may I suggest: http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...-training/82379-deathslayer%99-raikan007.html
Click to expand...

I made a tactic that plays like Chelsea this season with their 4-3-3/5-1 formation (and it's a personal favourite of mine and very very very very very consistent) which I came 4th with Wolves and won the LC!!! Unreleased though but it's a nice balanced tactic too. I got so many different tactics but I do rate that 4-5-1 tactic higher than most of the ones I've made.

Good point about Man Utd though. Can't waste the wingers in the squad. It would be criminal!
 
could i try your tac with my chelsea save plz
XeNoNF50 said:
I made a tactic that plays like Chelsea this season with their 4-3-3/5-1 formation (and it's a personal favourite of mine and very very very very very consistent) which I came 4th with Wolves and won the LC!!! Unreleased though but it's a nice balanced tactic too. I got so many different tactics but I do rate that 4-5-1 tactic higher than most of the ones I've made.

Good point about Man Utd though. Can't waste the wingers in the squad. It would be criminal!
Click to expand...
 
I'm not big on 3 CB formations (makes me freak out when the other team gets on the flank) and I don't like using AMR/Ls

For one, I think they are overused, every tactic has them and secondly I find that AMR/L regens tend to be rubbish.

I did think about using 3 CB's though so I could run with 2 strikers (always have a ton of good regen strikers that I can't get on the field) but I figured I'd try something new and just stick with one.
 
kitchin75 said:
ok thanks i did try your deathslayer but it dint go well won fa and lc but came 2nd in epl
Click to expand...
lol, sorry you did not win the League mate :p

late last night I made a Target Man whipping in crosses tactic (alot of members have asked me to make one) it is still not perfected however but its looking pretty good though! Also Xenon, I made the Cm scoring role you mentioned yesterday as well :) in the 1st competitive game Gerrard (central Cm scored 2goals with a 9.4 ave) and a goal from Carrol from a great cross! I started it late so played until like 1:30am but had to get to sleep as I am very busy at work this week)

going to make a quick thread on it :)

Also not a huge fan of 3 Cb's Montanaro, I made that one for a member who was wanting one though! never used it properly! hows your tactic coming along?
 
Raikan007 said:
lol, sorry you did not win the League mate :p

late last night I made a Target Man whipping in crosses tactic (alot of members have asked me to make one) it is still not perfected however but its looking pretty good though! Also Xenon, I made the Cm scoring role you mentioned yesterday as well :) in the 1st competitive game Gerrard (central Cm scored 2goals with a 9.4 ave) and a goal from Carrol from a great cross! I started it late so played until like 1:30am but had to get to sleep as I am very busy at work this week)

going to make a quick thread on it :)

Also not a huge fan of 3 Cb's Montanaro, I made that one for a member who was wanting one though! never used it properly! hows your tactic coming along?
Click to expand...

Cheers, much appreciated
 
its ok m8 dont think it was the tac but never see to win anything with man u first year dont know why its allways been like that since the cm days its a good tac with my other save keep them coming for fm12
Raikan007 said:
lol, sorry you did not win the League mate :p

late last night I made a Target Man whipping in crosses tactic (alot of members have asked me to make one) it is still not perfected however but its looking pretty good though! Also Xenon, I made the Cm scoring role you mentioned yesterday as well :) in the 1st competitive game Gerrard (central Cm scored 2goals with a 9.4 ave) and a goal from Carrol from a great cross! I started it late so played until like 1:30am but had to get to sleep as I am very busy at work this week)

going to make a quick thread on it :)

Also not a huge fan of 3 Cb's Montanaro, I made that one for a member who was wanting one though! never used it properly! hows your tactic coming along?
Click to expand...
 
I've scrapped the idea.

Nothing wrong with the tactic.

But It just doesn't fit what I want.

I prefer balanced utility of CMs. Only having 1 in the tactic bothered me for some reason. I base a lot of my tactics on quality of regens I can bring in. I don't like the thought of having 2 DMs and 2 AMs who are essentially specialist players. DMs with high tackling/marking with low passing and AMs with high passing and dribbling but low strength and defensive stats makes me nervous.

I'd rather have CMs who can contribute to all aspects and can be easily swapped out.

Therefore I reverted back to perfecting an old tactic I was working on. The 4-3-2-1 christmas tree. Yes it uses those 2 AMs that freak me out, but they are used more as Second Strikers which allows me to focus on finding AM regens with good finishing.

2 outside CMs drop deep and break up attacks, but can also contribute to attack. Center CM is on full creative role, just like in the "hour glass" formation.

This christmas tree formation actually looks like the "Hour Glass" formation on the average position analysis, Except the outside CMs are pushed up higher, and there is much better linkage between midfield and attack.

Oh, and I'm trying a new technique. I'm putting the two AMCs to specific mark the LB and RB. This way the AMCs are forced out wide and track back more/ they limit opponents passing options / and when we win the ball, the AMCs act like Wingers who cut inside aggressively. Often times they only have one man to beat (the sidebacks) which really opens up the opponents defense!
 
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