4-4-1-1: The REAL 4-4-2 (or How I Learned to Play the Triangle)

  • Thread starter Thread starter rocheyb
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 32
  • Views Views 63K
In the Champions League semi-final, I was 3-0 up against Bayern Munich at half-time in the first leg. The match finished 3-2, though, and then I lost the return 1-3. So close!

I won the Premier League and the Capital One Cup, and then the Community Shield again at the start of the following season. Started the new season at a pace but matched win-for-win by Man City, so far. That despite having sold Erik Gomez (a regen who scored 66 goals in his three seasons with us) to Manchester United for 70-million (30 up front; 30 over 24 months; 10 when he reaches 10 goals, which he will do any moment now).

I'm not trying to turn this thread into a manager story - just to testify as to the effectiveness of this formation.
 
Last edited:
MID-SEASON REPORT: 2021/22

I'm now at the end of January 2022. Jay Rodriguez, who was the lynchpin of my Shadow Striker formation, has been out of action since early October (stuck on 4 apps; 3 goals) due to one long-term injury and an additional set-back during his rehabilitation in the U21s. He's close to recovery now, but he's already 32 so I'm having to think about replacing him.

Giammarco Stangoni has played the No.10 for the majority of matches as a Trequartista_Attack, with instructions to Dribble more often, More direct passes and Get further forward. Ahead of him, Christoffer Jorgensen usually operates as a Complete Forward_Support detailed to play More short passes, Move into channels and Shoot more often.

Their stats at the moment are:

Giammarco Stangoni - 20 apps (+4 as sub); 18 goals; 7 assists; Avg. rating: 7.76
Christoffer Jorgensen - 21 apps (+3 as sub); 18 goals; 8 assists; Avg. rating: 7.61

View attachment 384817 View attachment 384816

Stangoni was my record signing at 39-million from Granada in Spain and has just won both the World Player of the Year and the World Golden Ball for 2021 - which makes him the new Messi, I suppose!

Both Manchester clubs are currently 5 points behind us at the top of the Premier League and we have a game in-hand. This is what we did to City in our league encounter just before Christmas:

View attachment 384815 View attachment 384814

We face Stoke City in the Capital One Cup Final (our 5th consecutive appearance in that Final, going for our 4th consecutive triumph); CSKA Moscow await our attention in the 1st knock-out round of the Champions League, after we waltzed through the group stage vs Monaco, Galatasaray and Atalanta; and in the FA Cup 5th round we have been drawn away to none other than...

View attachment 384812

They are in League One... but I think I'll put a full strength side out against them, anyway!
 
Any information on early transfers? Just curious.

I guess by early transfers, you mean during the first couple of seasons of my save.

2013/14

I had a limited transfer budget to begin with:

- Tom Ince was my first signing for 3.2-million from Blackpool, with Kelvin Davies and Guly do Prado going to them in part exchange. Ince has been consistent for me ever since, whether playing in the M_L or AM_L position. His info says that he's also good on the right hand side as an Inside Forward, but I prefer wingers to get to the byline and put crosses in, which he does very effectively. He was voted 3rd in the World Golden Ball 2021.

- Simone Pepe, a right-winger who came to me on-loan from Juventus, was my only other signing during the first season. He was very quick and had a knack of scoring counter-attacking goals.

2014/15

The second season probably represented my worst in the transfer market, as most of my preferred targets wouldn't entertain the prospect of coming to St. Mary's. The positive stand-outs were:

- Fraser Forster, GK, from Celtic for 4.7-million.

- Mexican centre-back Hector Moreno lacked a little height but read the game well. I signed him from Espanyol for 10-million. The way I replaced him worked out really well; I signed a 4.5 star potential teenaged regen from the Belgian side Genk when Moreno still had a year left to run on his contract at the age of 30. So I loaned Roel Rutten back to Genk for a season, where he played 50 matches - resulting in his 'current' rating getting closer to his 'potential'. When Moreno left on a free at the end of that season, Rutten arrived as a soon-to-be world class defender to replace him - and then we won the Premier League title for the first time.

- John Stones was a bit pricey at 5.75-million, but he has been a reliable back-up to Nathaniel Clyne at right-back and has never complained about not being first choice. He can also deputise at centre-back.

- Anton Putsila, M-L, signed on a free from Volga NN in Russia, scored a few goals and then went to Swansea City for a healthy profit the following season.

2015/16

This was where things started to pick-up, despite Nicola Cortese's insistence that I sign more Italians:

- Adam Lallana's real-life rise to prominence post-dates the release of FM14, so while he was a decent squad player, I had to bring somebody else in. I signed Jonjo Shelvey for 9.5-million and trained him to play in the AM_R and the M_R positions, to add to his existing competencies at M_C and AM_C. He's been excellent for me, especially as a right-sided winger, and with good long-range shooting ability and height, he scores plenty of goals. He's also good at penalties. Now that I've progressed the save, he's more of a squad player, but is still reliable - and very distinctive during the 3D match animation with that bald head!

- Tin Jedvaj is one of FM14's known super kids. I got lucky when Roma transfer-listed him after a mediocre loan spell with Ajax, enabling me to pick him up for 2.4-million. He's a Croatian centre-back and being able to pair him with Dejan Lovren meant that he settled in and picked up English quickly. His scouted star rating has declined recently, despite him only being mid-20s, but his performances are still good. He's tall and quick.

- Paolo Dybala from Sampdoria didn't suit my original 4-5-1 Assymetric system, so I eventually sold him to Stuttgart. But I'm sure he would have done better as the Shadow Striker in the 4-4-1-1 system that I play now.

- Simone Pasa was a decent DM_C.

- Daley Blind, a 6.25million signing from Ajax, could never usurp Luke Shaw at left-back but the man's hair is magnificent!

2016/17

- Alberto Masi, D_C, came to me on a free from Juventus and did well despite being a rotation player. I sold him to Granada for 15-million two seasons later and replaced with a similarly rated free signing from Dortmund who is two years younger.

- I signed Ross Barkley but never got the best out of him - mainly due to injury and the form of other players. But he did well in flashes and if I hadn't had Shelvey, for example, he might have done better for me. Inevitably, since releasing him he has scored and created goals against me for Leicester City.

2017/18

- Jack Butland came in from Stoke City for 9-million to replace Forster, and did so well during his three seasons at St. Mary's that I sold him to Monaco for 26-million (and replaced him with a 5-star potential Egyptian regen keeper, released on a free by Barcelona).

The only other real players that I have signed since were an ageing Bastian Schweinsteiger (I only signed him to prove that I could!) and the Mexico captain Diego Reyes, who was out-of-my-league when he was at Porto at the beginning of the game, but eventually came to me via CSKA Moscow and a 34-million minimum fee release clause to add a bit of experience to my squad of high-potential regens.

I still have Nathaniel Clyne (30), Luke Shaw (26), James Ward-Prowse (27) and Jay Rodriguez (32). Morgan Schneiderlin only left for Genoa this past summer after being the captain all this time; Dejan Lovren went to Juve Stabia last January and Adam Lallana had been out-of-favour for over a year before we mutually agreed to terminate his contract at round-a-bout the same time.

The early sales of Victor Wanyama (20-million to Real Madrid) and Jack Cork (6-million to Arsenal, with Emmanuel Frimpong in part-exchange) gave me plenty of transfer money to play with. The club was taken over two seasons ago and the stadium's capacity increased to 42,790.

This season, after selling Erik Gomez - a Mexican regen Striker who scored 66 goals in three seasons - to Manchester United for 70-million, I now have 59-million left in the transfer kitty and a 5-million wage budget that is double the actual wage bill. But I can't sign anybody new unless they are a teenager, because I can't register them for either the Premier League or Champions League without leaving one of my existing players out. Not that I want any more players for this season. I've got several Saints Academy players who I'm trying to blend into the squad and feeder club arrangements with Fiorentina, Coventry City and Eastleigh to help develop them to their maximum potential. Selling those who don't quite make the grade provides a useful bump to the transfer budget, too.

It's well-worth scouting Mexico, by-the-way. A lot of their players can speak English, so they don't take so long to settle into their new club, and the players that were so successful at the various levels of FIFA's youth competitions over the last few years are now that bit more mature. They produce good regens, too.
 
Last edited:
Hi there, nice work! I used some of your tips in my 4-4-1-1 formation, but i have two problems:

1) My strikers (ShS + DLF) are too close to each other. Usually when opposition holds the ball, so they have too much space

2) You have all the defenders set to short passing + play out of defence. When I use this my defenders have big problems with high pressing opposition. They literally don't have any option to pass to, because everyone is marked
 
Hi there, nice work! I used some of your tips in my 4-4-1-1 formation, but i have two problems:

1) My strikers (ShS + DLF) are too close to each other. Usually when opposition holds the ball, so they have too much space

2) You have all the defenders set to short passing + play out of defence. When I use this my defenders have big problems with high pressing opposition. They literally don't have any option to pass to, because everyone is marked

1) My SS and DLF do tend to stand on top of one another when the opposition goalkeeper is taking goal-kicks, for example, but then they split and go their separate ways once the ball is in play. During my team's possession, they operate within their own roles - separately but linking-up with each other quite effectively. Have you got Hassle opponents and Get stuck in selected among your Team Instructions? Perhaps it's also worth noting that Jay Rodriguez, my normal SS prior to his injury enforced absence this season, has Comes deep to get ball listed among his Preferred Moves.

2) Your central midfielders and wingers should be providing passing options for your defenders. Do you have Exploit the flanks and Play wider selected among your Team Instructions? This should encourage the centre-backs to look to the full-backs and wingers as outlets. Maybe they are also just taking time to get used to the new system? A player's passing ability is one of the first stats I look for when scouting new players. It's difficult to get defenders with anything more than 12 or 13 for passing, but I wouldn't accept anything below double-figures. My midfielders are all at 15 or above.

These are my best guesses, but I'm not really able to offer definitive answers because it's difficult to know whether the differences in yours and my experience of this formation is something tactical or in the particular attributes of our players. It may also be, now that I have advanced my game to the year 2022, my ability to sign top quality and very high potential players is overcoming any inherent flaws in the tactic.

I worked this formation out by watching the matches in Comprehensive view, noting what was working and what wasn't, and listening to the advice of the assistant manager (during matches) and the coaches (at the pre-season meeting), and making sure that the instructions I give to individual players match what their Preferred Moves and skills stats tell me about their strengths.
 
1) My SS and DLF do tend to stand on top of one another when the opposition goalkeeper is taking goal-kicks, for example, but then they split and go their separate ways once the ball is in play. During my team's possession, they operate within their own roles - separately but linking-up with each other quite effectively. Have you got Hassle opponents and Get stuck in selected among your Team Instructions? Perhaps it's also worth noting that Jay Rodriguez, my normal SS prior to his injury enforced absence this season, has Comes deep to get ball listed among his Preferred Moves.

2) Your central midfielders and wingers should be providing passing options for your defenders. Do you have Exploit the flanks and Play wider selected among your Team Instructions? This should encourage the centre-backs to look to the full-backs and wingers as outlets. Maybe they are also just taking time to get used to the new system? A player's passing ability is one of the first stats I look for when scouting new players. It's difficult to get defenders with anything more than 12 or 13 for passing, but I wouldn't accept anything below double-figures. My midfielders are all at 15 or above.

These are my best guesses, but I'm not really able to offer definitive answers because it's difficult to know whether the differences in yours and my experience of this formation is something tactical or in the particular attributes of our players. It may also be, now that I have advanced my game to the year 2022, my ability to sign top quality and very high potential players is overcoming any inherent flaws in the tactic.

I worked this formation out by watching the matches in Comprehensive view, noting what was working and what wasn't, and listening to the advice of the assistant manager (during matches) and the coaches (at the pre-season meeting), and making sure that the instructions I give to individual players match what their Preferred Moves and skills stats tell me about their strengths.

Thank you for your full-range reply. These were just my observations, otherwise it worked well in my games. But I have a little bit differnet issue. It's probably not a tactic problem. I am playing Nottingham Forest and I have transfers updated in my databse.. That means that there are at least 10 new players in the team (of course I brought in some new faces for weak positions). So they are not gelled enough. It is almost impossible to have some success in the first season. I am used to the team and know the players very well (incl. new ones) and I am a big fan, so I don't want to play any other team. I tried it several times, but it was always terrible. Team cohension almost for all pre-season, 10-12 friendlies (started already in June) but never good enough to hold on.

Funny thing is, that in pre-season I haven't lost any match. There were some weak teams, but also Celtic, Standard, ADO den Haag.. I usually won by three or four goals. In the first round of the Championship I trashed Sheffield W. 4-0 away.. Great result, everything was working great as in pre-season. All the players were doing what they were supposed to. Than suddenly next match home 0-2, next away 1-3, next away 1-2, next home 1-2.. I just don't get it. I tweaked the tactic a little bit according to opposition, tried different formation in the last match, but still the same. I am not tactic master or anything, but I've been playing this game from Championship Manager 2000/2001 and had some success. Now hardly top-half finish with the team I got in to Premier League on every second occassion in FM 13 (also with updated roster).

Really don't know what to do now :D The team is very good and I think the players suit the 4-4-1-1 tactic well. Just for imagination:

GK: Karl Darlow/Ben Amos
RB: Gonzalo Jara/Greg Halford
CB: Jack Hobbs/Michael Keane
CB: Kelvin Wilson/Danny Collins
LB: Lee Wallace/Danny Fox
RW: Jamie Paterson/Jamie Mackie
BWM: Chris Cohen/David Vaughan/Guy Moussi
DLP: Andy Reid/Chris Cohen/Henri Lansbury
LW: Djamel Abdoun/Gary Mackay-Steven
ShS: Simon ***
DLF: Julian Schieber (he was like a beast in pre-season, worked well with ***)

These are my most used players, there are several others in team. So do you think only problem is in the team gelling and tactic familiarity? I don't know why everything worked so well in the beggining.

Thanks again, keep up the good work ;)
 
Last edited:
@waterfall - thanks; good luck!

@Ghost77:

Funnily enough, my epic Southampton save is my second attempt on FM14 - first time around, I got the sack and briefly played as Nottingham Forest. So I have some knowledge of the red card magnet that is Gonzalo Jara, Kelvin "Man-Mountain" Wilson, Chris "Can't-run-but-can-cross" Cohen - and some of the other players in your squad.

I found them a bit limited, but that was when I started experimenting with a 4-4-2 with a Deep-Lying Forward (Jamie Mackie) and a False9 (Adam Le Fondre - who had been signed while I was struggling with The Saints) up-front, with Henry Lansbury as an Advanced Playmaker_Attack, positioned within the line of four midfielders. Mackie was the main benefactor, often running from deep, passing opposition centre-backs in the process, to get one-on-one with the 'keeper and he scored a fair share of them. I played Chris Cohen from the left as a Defensive Winger, encouraged to cross from deep - for the reason I've already alluded to. Although results were variable, I found that the two forwards, despite their instructions to drop deeper, would get into the box for him so I got a few goals that way, too.

So Mackie represents my 'Eureka' moment, and that was when I started again with Southampton, playing with a DLF up-top. The introduction of the Shadow Striker came later, as a solution to the consistently inconsistent performances of the No.10 in my then preferred 4-5-1 Assymetric formation; Gaston Ramirez and Paolo Dybala (from Sampdoria) both tried and failed in that position, before Jay Rodriguez made the position his own with the shift to 4-4-1-1 - inspired partly by what I had learned at Forest.

Some questions/observations:
- What is the stamina like among your squad? You have a few older players, don't you? I'm up to season 2021/22, so Mackie has retired and Lansbury and Mackay-Steven are both 31. Their stamina ratings aren't too high, but maybe that have dropped recently.
- Do you tend to concede goals at similar times during matches?
- Isn't Mackie primarily a Striker? Does he have the defensive and creative chops to be operating in the wide position of a midfield four, to support the full-back and build-up the play? Tom Ince does both jobs brilliantly on the left side of my team and he represents the template by which I search for other potential wingers. I sometimes use a Striker with winger credentials on the right when I play the 4-5-1 Assymetric, but only out-and-out wingers play in my 4-4-1-1 - which is the formation I was much more often.

Other than that, I would aim to just stabilise results, to meet minimum expectations, until you get more transfer funds to start re-building.

Does your Forest badge blur against the red background? My original one did, so I found one online that has a white border around it - and I added the two stars for the Clough-era Champions Cups to it, too. The stars aren't on the icon version:

View attachment 383647 View attachment 383645
 
Last edited:
@rocheyb:

Jamie Mackie is a good fighter and yes, he is a striker. But I never liked him as DLF, he is more like Defensive striker or winger. To be honest, I never exactly knew where to use him, because my favourite formations don't iclude these positions. Chris Cohen is great on FM. It is true that he doesn't run too much, but that's why I use him in central midfield to pass.

To your questions:

- Generally there are no problems with stamina in the squad. Andy Reid must be substituted early sometimes, but it's not a big issue (his belly is :) ) The squad can handle Championship program very well. About Gary Mackay-Steven. Very clever player with flair, but gets injured every second match. It's so annoying, that I was thinking about selling him a few times. Lansbury has stamina attribute on 12, but never notice and big problems.

- No, the goals are usually different. Some of them after corener kicks, some because of defending issue. My defenders got really problem with closing down more, there were huge gaps. When I removed this instruction, it looked better. And the time is always different.

- As mentioned above Mackie is a striker, but never scored reguraly for me. Had some problem with finishing. And has not enough "creativity" to be DLF. By the way Julian Schieber (on loan from BVB) was great with Simon ***, at least in pre-season - he scored 6 in 5 matches.

View attachment 383274

See the screen for the logo

View attachment 383273

Nice logo with Clough stars. Just started to read his autobiography ;)
 
Excellent write-up. Thoroughly enjoyed reading this. Will follow your Diary of a season thread as well.
 
Back
Top