4-4-2 low league, need help!

[theApprentice]

Hello!
Sorry for my English
I started a carreer with FC United of Manchester trying to set up a 4-4-2 but got bad results..

View attachment 215225

The translation of roles:
Por=Goalkepper
Ter=Full Back
DC=Central Defender (one with cover duty, the other with defense duty)
Ala=Winger
CC=Central Midfielder one on substain, the other on defend)
Atp=Defensive Forward
UA=Poacher (I think, it's a role changed last year)

And here are the instruction:
Team Instruction: Counter, Team Shape: Flexible

View attachment 215218

Don't need translation..

It doesn't run well. First of all, I was looking for a solid defense..

View attachment 215217

But as you can see, it's not so

Also the offensive phase doesn't work well! I close the most of the games with 2-3 shoot with 0 clear chances..
I just read the threads "lines&diamond", "how to play FM" and "pairs and combination", and think created a good tactic based on solid defense and counter attack, but I was wrong so...
Please help me!

 

[WJ]

What's the idea behind the tactic, role choices and Team Instructions? How do you envision this working, in other words?

 

[MrJointe]

Maybe you should try to play with a DLP and a BMW instead of 2 cms. Also you maybe should try to play with a false 9 instead of the DF

 

[theApprentice]

What's the idea behind the tactic, role choices and Team Instructions? How do you envision this working, in other words?

I was looking for a solid defense, not passive. I have only one quick defender, so I set up him with cover duty and the other with tight marking. I tried also fullback with defense duty, but didn't found any differences with support duties! So to have more opportunities in offensive development I set up the on support.
About team instructions, counter guarantees a defensive line slightly lower, so I setup up it a bit high. Always not to suffer too opponents offensive, I set more pressing. Not to discover, I use Stay on Feet!
I tried many combination in midfield.. the wingers on support haven't conviced me.. in offensive transition they aren't propositive as I hoped. So I turn them into offensive, but I was thinking to set them on the offensive midfield with support duties. The central midfielder couple is the one that gave me more problems.. I tried ball winning midfielder (denfend) - bbm, bwm(d)-cm(s), cm(d)-cm(s), bbm-bbm, but anyone allows me a fast transition from denfensive to offensive phase.
I know I can't afford two striker that doesn't defend. So after a lot of combination, I decided tu use a defensive forward with defensive duties because it theoretically should help my cc in pressing. I chose poacher for the other striker role because I think it's essential in the lower league to have a striker who only thinks scoring goals!
To get a fast transition after recovering the ball, I set direct passes in team instruction, but short passes to the indiviual setting of wingers, cm (s), and strikers.

Maybe you should try to play with a DLP and a BMW instead of 2 cms. Also you maybe should try to play with a false 9 instead of the DF

I don't think the problem is only about roles, also because I tried a lot of combination! I think I can't use a Playmaker because of the low technique of my cms..

 

[WJ]

I was looking for a solid defense, not passive. I have only one quick defender, so I set up him with cover duty and the other with tight marking. I tried also fullback with defense duty, but didn't found any differences with support duties! So to have more opportunities in offensive development I set up the on support.
About team instructions, counter guarantees a defensive line slightly lower, so I setup up it a bit high. Always not to suffer too opponents offensive, I set more pressing. Not to discover, I use Stay on Feet!
I tried many combination in midfield.. the wingers on support haven't conviced me.. in offensive transition they aren't propositive as I hoped. So I turn them into offensive, but I was thinking to set them on the offensive midfield with support duties. The central midfielder couple is the one that gave me more problems.. I tried ball winning midfielder (denfend) - bbm, bwm(d)-cm(s), cm(d)-cm(s), bbm-bbm, but anyone allows me a fast transition from denfensive to offensive phase.
I know I can't afford two striker that doesn't defend. So after a lot of combination, I decided tu use a defensive forward with defensive duties because it theoretically should help my cc in pressing. I chose poacher for the other striker role because I think it's essential in the lower league to have a striker who only thinks scoring goals!
To get a fast transition after recovering the ball, I set direct passes in team instruction, but short passes to the indiviual setting of wingers, cm (s), and strikers.

Sorry, but none of that answers my question. They are a bunch of individual pieces, but the main question still stands - How are you envisioning this tactic working? Get an idea of what you want to do first. Your ideas seem all over the place.

 

[theApprentice]

Sorry, but none of that answers my question. They are a bunch of individual pieces, but the main question still stands - How are you envisioning this tactic working? Get an idea of what you want to do first. Your ideas seem all over the place.

So.. I didn't understand your question. I try to reply again..

I figured that with these settings I would get a solid defense with a pressing in my halfway and a fast transition style of attack
If I still not answered to your question, please explain better because I didn't understand what you're asking me!

 

[WJ]

So.. I didn't understand your question. I try to reply again..

I figured that with these settings I would get a solid defense with a pressing in my halfway and a fast transition style of attack
If I still not answered to your question, please explain better because I didn't understand what you're asking me!

1 - Who will be the main goal scorer?

2 - Who will be the others helping out with goals?

3 - How will you supply these players?

4 - How are you going to work the ball forward?

etc etc

There needs to be some idea of what you want to do, surely? You mentioned a bunch of different combinations, but they all work very differently so there doesn't seem to be any clear idea of what you actually want to do?

So again, with the formation, roles, duties, mentality and team instructions, how do you see this tactic working?

 

[theApprentice]

1 - Who will be the main goal scorer?

2 - Who will be the others helping out with goals?

3 - How will you supply these players?

4 - How are you going to work the ball forward?

etc etc

There needs to be some idea of what you want to do, surely? You mentioned a bunch of different combinations, but they all work very differently so there doesn't seem to be any clear idea of what you actually want to do?

So again, with the formation, roles, duties, mentality and team instructions, how do you see this tactic working?

Ok.. clearly my best scorer must be the poacher, and it's the only player free from defensive duties in my opinion.
The wingers are, in my mind, the main sources of assist, with their dribbling on the flanks and their crosses.. so I maybe need to set "clear/exploit ball to flanks"?
The cm on defend is the one that after winning ball have to raise quickly the counter attack, so it's the midfielder with higher values in tackling, passing, technique and vision; the other, with support duty, will help my defender and support forward with movement without ball into space.
I haven't good defenders with the ball, so I think it's right to give away fast the ball, not trying to play in my half court. For this reason I set direct passes.
In defensive phase my fullback have to stay narrow the centrals, to compact the denfsive line. When attacking, i tried to recreate the 2 vs 1 about I've read in this forum, but with poor results..

 

[WJ]

Ok.. clearly my best scorer must be the poacher, and it's the only player free from defensive duties in my opinion.

So you're completely reliant on the Poacher to score. What happens if he has an off day or is marked out of the game?

The wingers are, in my mind, the main sources of assist, with their dribbling on the flanks and their crosses.. so I maybe need to set "clear/exploit ball to flanks"?

You're expecting the wingers to assist the Poacher (a player who will sit on the D-Line) but you've asked them to sit narrower and hold up the ball?

When attacking, i tried to recreate the 2 vs 1 about I've read in this forum, but with poor results..

How did you try to recreate that?

 

[theApprentice]

So you're completely reliant on the Poacher to score. What happens if he has an off day or is marked out of the game?

No, I also expect a concrete contribution in goals from the defensive forward.. and also some goals from my cm with his moves into space.

You're expecting the wingers to assist the Poacher (a player who will sit on the D-Line) but you've asked them to sit narrower and hold up the ball?

Why narrower? I except from them that they move to the backcourt and then crosses for the poacher or the other winger that theorically will cut in the area..

How did you try to recreate that?

I tried setting the fullbacks with support duties and asking them to go forward as soon as possible and to look for overlays in team instruction

 

[WJ]

No, I also expect a concrete contribution in goals from the defensive forward.. and also some goals from my cm with his moves into space.

I had to ask since this was question 2, but received no answer.

Why narrower? I except from them that they move to the backcourt and then crosses for the poacher or the other winger that theorically will cut in the area..

Because that's what you've instructed. You've asked them to sit narrow and hold up the ball, to look for the overlap.

 

[theApprentice]

I had to ask since this was question 2, but received no answer.

Ops.. My translation was wrong but now you have the answer

Because that's what you've instructed. You've asked them to sit narrow and hold up the ball, to look for the overlap.

In team instruction I asked to play narrow, but on individual instruction the wingers had to stay wider!

 

[WJ]

In team instruction I asked to play narrow, but on individual instruction the wingers had to stay wider!

But what I'm getting at is that "Look for Overlap" asks them to sit narrower and hold up the ball. IF they finally cross, your poacher will have to fight against at least 2 defenders, but probably more. What's the point of bombing the wingers forward, getting them in advanced positions early but holding up the ball to wait for the penalty area to become more crowded? This is what will happen currently. Your poacher will need to be very good in the air.

 

[theApprentice]

But what I'm getting at is that "Look for Overlap" asks them to sit narrower and hold up the ball. IF they finally cross, your poacher will have to fight against at least 2 defenders, but probably more. What's the point of bombing the wingers forward, getting them in advanced positions early but holding up the ball to wait for the penalty area to become more crowded? This is what will happen currently. Your poacher will need to be very good in the air.

You right. Don't thought that asking for overlap imply the wingers to stay narrower.
So if I want to prefer playing on the flanks I need not to set "look for overlap". But in this case, it's possibile to recreate that 2 vs 1 anyway? I think it really could help my offensive phase to be more effective..

Sure, I'm looking for a poacher tall and with good actributes in heading, positioning, balance, jumping and strenght. But it's not true he's lonely against at least 2 defenders. I have another striker which should be marked.. also the cm (that I tried now to turn from support duties to offensive) will often be in the area. Without forgetting that the opposite winger, with offensive duties, theorically cuts the field like an IF..
Am I wrong?

 

[WJ]

You right. Don't thought that asking for overlap imply the wingers to stay narrower.
So if I want to prefer playing on the flanks I need not to set "look for overlap". But in this case, it's possibile to recreate that 2 vs 1 anyway? I think it really could help my offensive phase to be more effective..

The simplest way is to have a winger (preferably not the Winger role though) on Support and a fullback on Attack. The winger will keep up with play and operate in the space between the opposition fullback and winger. That draws the fullback in and opens up space behind him for the overlapping fullback.

Sure, I'm looking for a poacher tall and with good actributes in heading, positioning, balance, jumping and strenght. But it's not true he's lonely against at least 2 defenders. I have another striker which should be marked.. also the cm (that I tried now to turn from support duties to offensive) will often be in the area. Without forgetting that the opposite winger, with offensive duties, theorically cuts the field like an IF..
Am I wrong?

You tell me? You're the one watching the matches. I'm talking about theory here and what I think is happening. You may be right that by the time your players get into a position to cross, considering they're holding up the ball, the DLF has now joined in the box. Why play a Poacher then? You don't then really need him to act like a Poacher at all?

 

[theApprentice]

The simplest way is to have a winger (preferably not the Winger role though) on Support and a fullback on Attack. The winger will keep up with play and operate in the space between the opposition fullback and winger. That draws the fullback in and opens up space behind him for the overlapping fullback.

You tell me? You're the one watching the matches. I'm talking about theory here and what I think is happening. You may be right that by the time your players get into a position to cross, considering they're holding up the ball, the DLF has now joined in the box. Why play a Poacher then? You don't then really need him to act like a Poacher at all?

Thanks a lot.. I modified my tactic and now my offense it's just like what I expected Fast transition from defense to offensive players, especially the widers, and then a lot of chances to develop the play.
And my team score often!

But now.. I can't find defensive stability.. The opponents scores thanks to crosses from the flank as much as assists from the centre.
I was looking for a solid defense based on half pitch press but until now it has been a total failure..

 

[WJ]

Glad you're getting your team to play the way you want to now.

 

[theApprentice]

Glad you're getting your team to play the way you want to now.

That's wrong.. We do half work!
I don't understand why my defense is so orryfing

 

[Conflictinbanno]

That's wrong.. We do half work!
I don't understand why my defense is so orryfing

What exactly are the defenders doing that is so horrifying?
Are they giving the ball away leading to goals against? Or maybe making mistakes to cause this?
If neither of the above, are you maybe getting caught on the counter so are slightly out numbered, or maybe you're findig the opposition are constantly beating you in the same way (for example the left back who could be on an attack duty, so they have more space).

I've just read above you mentioned as many goals from the flanks as well as the centre...how do you mean? Is it just a winger/full back running down the wing and crossing the ball which is then put back in the net? Is it one cm just playing a long ball past your CB's? Add a little more detail to how these are happening.

Maybe post your up to date tactic now that you've helped improve the transistion/attacking phases along with the TI's and any PI's and people may be able to see what is causing the defence to be so leaky.

 

[WJ]

That's wrong.. We do half work!
I don't understand why my defense is so orryfing

Your defence was fine in the beginning and you mention that you made changes and now you're having defensive issues.... so WHAT changes have you made? What does your setup look like and what exactly is the issue now?