4-4-2 Man U Advice?

[Sabresosar]

Hi this is my first post, i thought i'd begin with a little about me. I've played FM 2007,08,09 & 10. I'm very attached to the "classic" tactics and dislike the newer 2010 tactics creator for a number of reasons. I'm also very familiar with the 2009 TT&F document. With the release of 2011 around the corner its about time i came out of the stone age and joined the FM community here ^^)

Every system I play is designed around the original team I started as... However, strangely i've never had much success with Man United so they're my team of choice for 2011.

4-4-2 formation, i'm curious to hear any and all advice anybody can offer tactically.
The general system i'm using will switch between either attacking, counter attack or possession depending on the difficulty of the match. The problem i'm having tactically is how/if Berbatov should be deployed? His finishing, composure, concentration, decisions & off the ball are okay but nothing ground breaking except for first touch. The money from selling him could give me quite a bit of breathing time. Statistically carrick and valencia also seem quite dissapointing.

I guess my question is: Would you replace carrick, valencia & berbatov with statistically better players? if yes or no, who would you use? and why or why not?

The alternatives i've found on my demo file (havn't checked other databased for players like cardozo, moutinho etc) are:
#To replace Carrick#
Riquelme (not sure how to deploy him against tough teams or on small pitches because of his low work rate!)
Lucho gonzales
i guess cambiasso is an option but i'd be basically bankrupt (although ive heard about board brokering players for you?)

Valencia
I have no idea who could replace him. he does very well against smaller reputation teams but his lack of flair and dribbling see's him fail majorly against chelsea, arsenal, barcelona, etc
this question is whether im deploying him differently than i should? (standard winger role, lots of crossing and dribbling with some creativity). only problem is BERBATOV CAN'T HEADER when he crosses in :'''( makes me think maybe i need someone better with passing (ronaldinho, beckham) to really let my strikers do some damage?

Berbatov
Okay this is the real meat of the question. i like my strikers to be lethal infront of goal. Inzaghi and Van Nistelrooy both have insane scoring stats and are fairly cheap (i know owen is good for this but im using him as backup) so they are my targets. Hernandez is still young and i don't trust him over 90 minutes unless im playing counter attack (his speed is perfect for this)

If you have any advice on how to deploy any of the players mentioned effectively (berbatov just wont score and his heading is attrocious) or have any other suggestions of any players or any tactical advantages they bring it is VERY appreciated.

Sorry for such a long post i'd just like to see what other players think and suggest|)

For references my team will play 4-4-2 where possible.
GK: van der sar
RB: wes brown / rafael
LB: Evra
CB: Ferdinand & Vidic
LW: nani
RW: possibly valencia or a more "creative" midfielder
CMd: Fletcher
CMa: Carrick (Riquelme/lucho gonzales) (need someone creative who is also a danger)
STd: Rooney (will be feeding STa MANY throughballs)
STa: Van Nistelrooy / Hernandez (or berbatov if he could actually header/finish very efficiently)

I posted this in tactics because I asked how to deploy certain players and any alternatives but im unsure if it should be in player discussion? sorry if its posted in the wrong catagory.
Thank you for any responses and again apologies for such a long post.

 

[Mike.]

Firstly not sure why you dont like the TC, its just the classic, but with presets on the top.

i always play a "4-4-2"with united.I put that in inverted comma's since its just a framework, and ill often see 6-7 players in the attack.

berbatov is a lethal finisher, and so is hernandez is in fm11, in fact with the four main strikers( rooney and macheda) finishing shouldnt be a problem. berbatov is a good header f the ball but remeber hes not strng and the other forwards are tall so you should be drilling the crosses in. berbatov is a creative genius, complete forward, but you might want to tweak crossing and long shots

as for MCa, scholes,plus sign marek hamsik.

nani should be deployed one the right as winger/attack. i would use giggs on the left, plus sign eden hazard as back up. set him on the left as winger attack, but tweak his setting so they look like the wide advanced playmaker attack.

i would certainly keep berbatov and valencia, maybe ditch carrick for steven defour

its late so i wont go into more detail will post again tomorrow

 

[Sabresosar]

I think mainly because its a "newer" system to me, I've always enjoyed having that exact control over every player with the sliders. I know you can doalot of tweaking after choosing roles but i love building from the ground up with my roles.

I dislike berbatov because of his heading accuracy, i agree that creatively he is a great asset and i did consider a 4 3 3 for a while with both him and rooney supplying hernandez. His finishing is lethal alot of the time but that 15 score scares me when compared to 18+ of Inzaghi, Van Nistelrooy etc. Its always more enjoyable to score that extra goal a game because of their higher off the ball, finishing, composure etc.

With scholes ive been playing him as a reserve CMa, mainly because of my concern over his stamina levels but yeah your spot on, his technical ability and creativity are perfect for the role. hmm, the reason i originally rejected hamsik was because of his low work rate (and i dont know his PA until the game comes out). His price tag in previous games has always kept him just out of my reach too but i will definately be buying him if the opportunity arises.

You've solved the winger problem for me right there. I didnt want to try giggs because of age (again i thought back up immediately) but with eden hazard there its a good combination.

I think maybe alot of my indecision has been due to being cautious about younger players PA's. For example steven defour, i was unsure if his technical stats would rise to compete with his mental stats but that remains to be seen when the game comes out properly

your feedback has given me alot to think about

 

[Mike.]

dont look at stats in isolation, nistelrooy and pippo are better pure finishers, but neither will unlock stubborn defences the way berbatov can. it depends on how you want your team to play. before i start to sign players i already know how i want my side to play

 

[danichese]

fabio coentrao does the job perfectly on the left wing, hes a bit like bale, great winger with good defense attributes

 

[Sabresosar]

I agree with you that berbatov can unlock defences (****, hes doing it right now for me because rooney is injured and scholes is tired ). however, put in the STa role he's been missing alot of one on ones and easy goals. You were right about Hernandez, i'm still cautious of his finishing but his pace allows him to get on goal alow more than the likes of van nistelrooy which can mean more goals against certain opponents.

There are multiple ways to unlock a defence though. For example Scholes/Rooney's passing/creativity/decisions coupled with Hernandez's speed or Van nistelrooy's off the ball can also unlock defences. I think i'll definately keep berbatov now, but only for rotation with rooney when he's on poor form of tired and also when i need that extra technical men on the pitch to unlock the likes of chelsea, inter etc.

I totally agree though it depends on the system, and as im still experimenting its very difficult to come to a solid choice :/ I've never had this much trouble tactically with a team (im leaning towards berbatov rotation with rooney + having a pure finisher or hernandez playing off the shoulder of the last defender) as a slightly authoritarian manager im forced towards that pure finisher + 1/2 creative players but i know man united (and especially berbatov) have alot more potential to easily breakdown teams when given the freedom :/

& @ Danichese: i have just shortlisted him thank you, he is now also serious target for me tomorrow when i can get hold of the CA/PA of players

 

[Mike.]

I agree with you that berbatov can unlock defences (****, hes doing it right now for me because rooney is injured and scholes is tired ). however, put in the STa role he's been missing alot of one on ones and easy goals. You were right about Hernandez, i'm still cautious of his finishing but his pace allows him to get on goal alow more than the likes of van nistelrooy which can mean more goals against certain opponents.

There are multiple ways to unlock a defence though. For example Scholes/Rooney's passing/creativity/decisions coupled with Hernandez's speed or Van nistelrooy's off the ball can also unlock defences. I think i'll definately keep berbatov now, but only for rotation with rooney when he's on poor form of tired and also when i need that extra technical men on the pitch to unlock the likes of chelsea, inter etc.

I totally agree though it depends on the system, and as im still experimenting its very difficult to come to a solid choice :/ I've never had this much trouble tactically with a team (im leaning towards berbatov rotation with rooney + having a pure finisher or hernandez playing off the shoulder of the last defender) as a slightly authoritarian manager im forced towards that pure finisher + 1/2 creative players but i know man united (and especially berbatov) have alot more potential to easily breakdown teams when given the freedom :/

& @ Danichese: i have just shortlisted him thank you, he is now also serious target for me tomorrow when i can get hold of the CA/PA of players

fair enough,im more of a framework manager, i allow the players use their head inside a framework i give them, so i end up signing or developing certain types of players. in a 4-4-2, the front five player would all tend to be highly creative ( in my case rooney, berbatov, hazard/giggs, scholes/hamsik, nani)

 

[Sabresosar]

Ahh, you play the 5x5 system similar to what benitez used at liverpool?
I have to ask though how you can allow rooney to be creative (use his head) without him pointlessly taking long shots all the time (his long shots are 13, but his favoured move is taking long shots) and wasting opportunities to create something for the other players?
I can understand how it works for nani, scholes, berbatov etc but im finding to hard to control wayne without him blasting it half the time and missing. (ive tried asking him to stop but he says it wont benefit his game)

Sorry about all the questions :') its just interesting to see how a more creative player would work on the Man U system.

 

[Mike.]

Ahh, you play the 5x5 system similar to what benitez used at liverpool?
I have to ask though how you can allow rooney to be creative (use his head) without him pointlessly taking long shots all the time (his long shots are 13, but his favoured move is taking long shots) and wasting opportunities to create something for the other players?
I can understand how it works for nani, scholes, berbatov etc but im finding to hard to control wayne without him blasting it half the time and missing. (ive tried asking him to stop but he says it wont benefit his game)

Sorry about all the questions :') its just interesting to see how a more creative player would work on the Man U system.

thats a game issue which will be sorted with the release day patch. but in fm10 i told him to unlearn it and set his longshots to rarely. interesting that hes not willing to unlearn it. he was happy to when i asked him in fm11

 

[Sabresosar]

thats a game issue which will be sorted with the release day patch. but in fm10 i told him to unlearn it and set his longshots to rarely. interesting that hes not willing to unlearn it. he was happy to when i asked him in fm11

Just tried creating a new file and he was willing to unlearn it, i think it was to do with his happiness levels? Thank you for your help i think i have some great ideas on how to become successful with united ^^)

 

[Mikon]

I need help with my Manchester United too. I just can't win any "classic", any game against the 3 big blubs in England.
My first year I just bought Coentrão and Paulo Henrique Ganso from Santos. I got second place in the Premier and second place, again, in the Champions League. With much more money, I could reorganize my team, as follows:

Adler
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Heargreaves
Affelay -- Manuel Mata (or Coentrão)
Paulo Henrique
Rooney Lukaku (or Mata)

Any tips?
I had to sell Berbatov, Valencia and Nani, as they were all big flopps...

I can't make this team a "real" team! They're completely useless against bigger teams.

 

[Sabresosar]

I need help with my Manchester United too. I just can't win any "classic", any game against the 3 big blubs in England.
My first year I just bought Coentrão and Paulo Henrique Ganso from Santos. I got second place in the Premier and second place, again, in the Champions League. With much more money, I could reorganize my team, as follows:

Adler
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Heargreaves
Affelay -- Manuel Mata (or Coentrão)
Paulo Henrique
Rooney Lukaku (or Mata)

Any tips?
I had to sell Berbatov, Valencia and Nani, as they were all big flopps...

I can't make this team a "real" team! They're completely useless against bigger teams.

This is probably a biased opinion from me as i focus heavily on defence but first, make sure you have decent defensive tactics. Check where your leaking goals from any weaker sides, plug those defensive holes as much as you can, often i find that if stoke or bolton can score 1-2 goals against me in a match, the big 4 can score atleast double that.

You seem to have done very well too considering you got runner up in 2 competitions, thats not exactly easy! Once you have a solid defensive base, concentrate on unlocking the opposition defence with your creative players (you seem to have a good selection).

Ontop of this, be sure to expose any weaknesses in the club's defence and avoid taking their strengths head on. Eg. chelsea are very strong and aerial, so play out of their way and make sure you play to feet. whereas arsenal are the weakest of these teams in the air and very technically gifted on the ground so the opposite applies (lukaku would be very useful against arsenal)
Be sure to target specific players who you can win the ball back from easily (eg wallcott diaby or song all have a lack of high technical skills but beware of wallcott's speed). And vice versa, make sure the likes of lampard, drogba and fabregas dont have time on the ball to do anything dangerous!

The top 4 teams are there for a reason and they are always going to be hard to beat, sometimes you just need a little luck!

Just my opinion ofcourse i could be totally wrong but thats the advice i'd give

 

[Mikon]

The majority of my problems were the goalkeeper. I changed van der Sar for Adlér and a big part of my problems went away. What I cannot find is how to solve the gap between my two central defenders.
I set Ferdinand and Vidic to be a little far from each other: one upfront, trying to antecipate the ball and the other one covering. Any tips on how to tweak these two?
Other than that, my team is specially slow in the beginning of the championship, and that is not a big problem... it's just that Arsenal is already "fast and furious"... haha!

 

[Sabresosar]

Hmm, have you tried adjusting the width in the team instructions? many of the higher quality teams will have "wide" pitches so they can create larger gaps in your defence, and also allowing them to play a slower tempo, tiring your players and keeping possession.

I would play Vidic further up than Ferdinand. Have Ferdinand cover throughballs and Vidic closing down players coming towards the defensive line.

Also how high do you play up the pitch?

If your playing a high line it may allow higher quality teams to slot throughballs right through the centre to fast strikers who can outpace Vidic and even Ferdinand. Playing a deeper defensive line in these situations can really help, however be careful not to play so far back that you isolate the defence from midfield, it can be quite tricky to get it correct on a larger pitch but pays off after a bit of trial and error.

I wouldn't worry about the difference between your's and Arsenal's form. Some teams tend to "peak" too quickly in the season and can end up failing in the long term. It might just be that they've had an easy run of games or started with very high morale

 

[Mikon]

Update of my situation: december of 2011, after some changes.

I just set a new defensive record: 9 gols suffered in 17 games! Almost one month without conceding!

Arsenal is still up ahead: 17 games, 12 won, 5 draw, 5 goals against and 35 for... it's 11 goals more than me!

At least the I closed the gap...

Now I just signed Srna for free and I'll proibably will be needing a right midfilder. Any good youngster?

 

[Sabresosar]

What changes did you make Mikon?
That change of record is very good
Getting Srna on a free is quite impressive too, it really depends what type of player your looking for in right mid but i would suggest the likes of balotelli or alexis sanchez

 

[Mikon]

I put Heargreaves as a Anchorman, Rooney as a Defensive striker and put maximum freedom for my left and right midfilder (they have 17 and 18 of dribbling).
The anchorman fills the gap, Rooney usually lurks right in the middle of the pitch, closing the gap between attack and defense, and my two wingers, because they're quick and have good antecipaton, always "blocks" the other teams wingers or full backs.
And I play really narrow, as I have more talented and ofensive players, I prefer a more compact aproach of the game.

 

[baxterboi11]

Try not to sign to many players at once also, it will upset the balance of the squad use team blend to fix this.

 

[Mikon]

Update: end of second year and beginning of the third (2011/2012)

I had a LOT of problems this year. I won the Premier League by just one point, and in the last game.
Arsenal made more than 80 gols and actually was the best defense BY FAR. They scored 17 more goals than me and sufferd about 9 less than my team.
Won the League and I was MASSACRED by Atletico Madrid... lost 5-1 in Spain and won 2-1 home. I was completely furious.
Affelay is good but Valencia was better. Coentrão became a monster, as I focused training on him to not get injuried so much and it really paid off.
Big flops: Paulo Henrique (Ganso) from Santos and Lukaku. Both were way underachieving.

New signings: Dzeko, Pastore and Jack Rodwell.
Lost: O'shea ( I really liked him), Carrick, Muniain (another flop) and Fabio, as I will have Evra for at least 2 more years and Coentrão is young and better for my style of play.

Any suggestion? Maybe have a little more patience with my young players?

 

[scottys]

when playing442 do you guys think that I shall use shorter or direct passing?