4-6-0 Strikerless Formation

[mamudi]

At First i want to say that i am not going to post a tactic. What i do want is to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of this formation. CL league 08 winner Manchester and 09 Winner Barcelona have used this formation, so without playing with a real striker. As is Barcelona using it this season. Offcourse you also can't forget AS ROMA who played many years with this tactic, with Totti as the highest player on the pitch.

I would recommend to read the following articles.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/oct/27/the-question-false-nines-jonathan-wilson
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/oct/26/the-question-barcelona-reinventing-w-w
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/24/barcelona-2008-09-pep-guardiola-4-3-3/
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/19/barcelona-4-2-4-formation-guardiola-messi/
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/20/teams-of-the-decade-3-manchester-united-2006-09/
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/28/zonal-markings-20-teams-of-the-decade-in-full/05-roma-4-6-0/

Due my fm11 crashing i have not been able to play the matches, so i can't post any results.
The great thing about this formation is obviously the versatility of the attacking players, which results into not knowing how to mark them.

Also The freedom the Wingbacks have look at these two pictures.

I could go on for hours on this, but the two well known sites on this community i just linked explain a lot and much more detailed than i ever could do.

My question would be: How can we do this with Football Manager 11. I had something like this. I know Villa isn't natural on that position, but it's the way he plays ATM.
I would love to see this thread having a great talk/discussion to help me and the FM Community.

WBR: Dani Alves
WBL: Maxwell
CB: Puyol
CB Pique
DMC: Mascherano
CM: Xavi
CM: Iniesta
AMR: Pedro
AML: Villa
AMC Messi

Thank you in Advance

Offtopic: Also interesting articles about the Crucial aspects what made barcelona so succesfull. I am not really a Barcelona fan, but I am obsessed by their tactical approach.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/may/12/the-question-important-possession
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/apr/06/question-pressing-crucial-modern-game
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/mar/24/the-question-inside-out-wingers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blo...orwards-barcelona-liverpool-manchester-united
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/mar/25/the-question-full-backs-football
And actually every article in here
http://www.zonalmarking.net/category/decade/tacticsin2000s/page/2/

 

[darkfootball]

Hey dude I think this is a very good ideea.
I'm a fan of Real Madrid but I too am obsessed with replicating Barcelona's tactic in fm. I am curently working on a barca tactic and so far it is working well in friendlies.The team has around 70 % of posession and they tend to play very fluid football.
I don't really know what role to give messi as an amc so I would like your opinion. This is my first ever post and I am sorry for my English, I am not a native speaker.

 

[mamudi]

I have set Messi as a Treq.
The weird thing about this tactic is, which i never managed to accomplish with my other tactics is getting the midfielders to score. My two CM's Xavi and Iniesta have low finishing but high composure. Also due the way that almost all of my goals were from close shots it works great. Xavi had just scored an Hat trick.

A Problem i due have is getting David Villa score, it's weird but Pedro does score and Messi too, but it's especially David Villa who isn't scoring, he get the most shots on target though.

 

[darkfootball]

Vill scores for me Pedro doesn't. I seem to get more posession if I play alves and adriano as fullbacks not wingbacks and a high defensive line. what do you think the width and tempo should be?
And what are the roles you gave xavi and iniesta? i am trying to make xavi sit back more like he does in real life. He doesn't score too often.

 

[wilkz]

great thread! nice links got me wanting to try it

 

[mamudi]

I have Dani Alves and Abidal/Maxwell as WB with Hug the Touchline. that way they help while building up from the back. Other whise it's just Pique givin the ball to Xavi/Mascherano. Due the Wingback more options are givin to pass.

I Play a High defensive line, Slow tempo with some time wasting and a Narrow with. One thing i always hated was that my Wide strikers would go further wide. I have Iniesta as an Adv Playmaker attack and Xavi as and Deeplying playmaker Support.

You know what ill just upload my tactic, but remember this is not a tactic which i made with the intention to win many cups with. It's a Concept of a Philosify which i wanted to emulate in FM 11.

EDIT: I changed a bit and I love it this way, it's great to see the versality of the players and how not greedy they are. Xavi is still scoring as is Messi and Villa, Iniesta has the most assist. I havent touched the Set pieces so i dont really score from them.

 

[darkfootball]

Thx mate looking forward to comparing your tactic with mine and maybe tweak some other things.
I don't really want a tactic to win cups i usually try to play with a team in fm just like they play in real life. That's why i play this game for.

 

[jbar]

Having seen Barcelona-Villarreal match last week-end I think Barça played with Messi in a centre-forward position as trequartista while Pedro played on the right as inside-forward (move into channels) and Villa on the left as inside-forward (cut inside). It's also interesting that (particularly away or tough matches) Iniesta plays on the left as Adv Playmaker, Villa occupies the center (complete forward) and Messi moves to the right (adv playmaker or inside forward).

 

[mrjack41]

I have set Messi as a Treq.
The weird thing about this tactic is, which i never managed to accomplish with my other tactics is getting the midfielders to score. My two CM's Xavi and Iniesta have low finishing but high composure. Also due the way that almost all of my goals were from close shots it works great. Xavi had just scored an Hat trick.

A Problem i due have is getting David Villa score, it's weird but Pedro does score and Messi too, but it's especially David Villa who isn't scoring, he get the most shots on target though.

Midfielders scoring is a must.. theres no striker on the field.

 

[darkfootball]

Having seen Barcelona-Villarreal match last week-end I think Barça played with Messi in a centre-forward position as trequartista while Pedro played on the right as inside-forward (move into channels) and Villa on the left as inside-forward (cut inside). It's also interesting that (particularly away or tough matches) Iniesta plays on the left as Adv Playmaker, Villa occupies the center (complete forward) and Messi moves to the right (adv playmaker or inside forward).

If you play Messi as centre forward he will see the ball rarely,your team will have less posession and he won't drop as much as he does in real life. That's why I think he should be played as an AMC. You are right iniesta sometimes plays on the left but even then messi tends to play in the centre behind villa leaving the right side for alves. I don't know if you can replicate that in fm though.

 

[mamudi]

Something I noticed is that this tactic, will not work for every team. I often see my players just running through defenders, especially Messi, Iniesta, Neymar (new signing) and Villa. All these players are great dribbles with great technique and besides Iniesta they are all fast.

In some games i have seen Puyol and Pique with 0 tackles. Messi, Villa, Abidal and Mascherano had the most tackles of the team. I can conclude that the high defensive line and pressing works great. That's why Pique goes so high on the pitch to provide and extra men in the midfield.

The matches are great to see, but they are all against weaker opponents so they are not representative of reality. I am sure if you just use the default tactics you will win too.

 

[*Jones*]

Play a 4-5-1 with Messi up front as a deep lying forward,
i did this on '10 and managed to get him playing almost as a False 9 to create a sort of 4-6-0,
just alter his bars and stuff...

 

[mamudi]

I thought about putting in the forward, but i just wanted to make this work with no strikers. Also when I look at heat maps and average position i see that Messi is often the highest player on the pitch, even if he drops deep to get the ball from the midfield like he does alot. . but on my game David Villa is the highest player on the pitch due the fact Messi drops deep to get the ball.

My question would be is it necessary for messi to drop deep when you got one of the best two passers in the world Xavi and iniesta at that place?
When he is dropping deep i can see he help really wel building up, especially with iniesta.

Also i am really fond of the way Dani Alves plays he offers great width!

 

[*Jones*]

If your trying replicate how Barcelona play, wait a couple of weeks/maybe even a month (i still don't have the full game) then i'll be releasing a fairly in-depth guide etc as i've been watching how they play closely and stuff and you can test the early stages of that.

Alves: Wing Back - Attack, on the same line as you would have a DM,
also, play Villa as a left winger with messi as the main striker but get those two to swap places.
alter Villa's mentality also.

 

[mamudi]

I am looking forward to your guide. How do you see messi's current role at barca? (after moving to the middle due his right foot improving a lot. Although he would even swap with Eto'o in the 6 cup season. it was just harder to do with Ibra, considering the fact he has a hard time playing as a Wide forward.)

Is his role more a Treq or a DLF and to which other player/team in the world would you compare his role too, maybe Totti from Roma back in the days

Also have you read some of the articles posted above, especially the one about the W-W formation and the False 9 are interesting.

Puyol Pique
Dani Busquets Maxxwell
Xavi Iniesta
Pedro Messi Villa

EDIT: Left winger or AML?