Arsenal bid for Jagielka rejected

[Jamie.]

Well, as has been posted in the Arsenal thread numerous times by Joss, he is thinking we need a proven in the EPL, English centre-back.

Tell me, which of the above criteria does Vertongen meet?

Never mentioned Wenger was mental, English CB argument is completely irrelevant in my opinion...

It might make a difference if it was a Brazilian and a Frenchman but two Belgian CB's would have the understanding/knowledge/experience together and what is the one aspect in particular Arsenal have lacked in recent seasons between CBs?

Communication. You would presume the 2 of them would know each others game inside out and play with each other for Belgium, for arguments sake you could point to CFC/MUFC sides that have won titles in recent years with one English CB at the forefront in Terry/Ferdinand of each team. Think that Vertonghen would be a better bet, not forgetting Jagielka's injuries in recent seasons, just my opinion but if you want to compare Wenger's recent signings at CB of Squillaci/Koscielny I would say that for the price he paid for two of them he could definitely have brought in Vertonghen and he 'could' have got them more points/clean sheets last season because him and Vermaelen have the communication and knowledge of each others game.

No need for the CB to be English/Premier League proven because Vermaelen slotted straight in to the system, and if it was down to me in Wengers position and Vertonghen was available for 10-12m and Jagielka would cost me 18m and Cahill would cost around the same I would go for Vertonghen.

I love Jagielka as a CB but I just don't think for value for money he would give it, especially if you compare his injury record to Vertonghens and the age gap (which I don't think is an issue but age is a factor in Wengers decisions).

Personally I would rather Wenger brought in Vertonghen and Coates as backup, that gives depth in the CB department and a young CB like Coates coming in could really turn into a star and then you would be talking Vermaelen/Vertonghen/Coates with Koscielny/Djourou stepping it up for their place as well. I would happily then say Arsenal's defence is titleworthy.

Don't buy into the fact Arsenal need an Englishman at the back, think they need a proven CB who has good mental attributes to connect with physical/technical attributes.

'What is Wenger thinking', was a sort of vague reference to going for Jagielka over players like Vertonghen/Cahill/Ogbonna/Howedes/Samba even.

 

[Redrup]

Never mentioned Wenger was mental, English CB argument is completely irrelevant in my opinion...

It might make a difference if it was a Brazilian and a Frenchman but two Belgian CB's would have the understanding/knowledge/experience together and what is the one aspect in particular Arsenal have lacked in recent seasons between CBs?

Communication. You would presume the 2 of them would know each others game inside out and play with each other for Belgium, for arguments sake you could point to CFC/MUFC sides that have won titles in recent years with one English CB at the forefront in Terry/Ferdinand of each team. Think that Vertonghen would be a better bet, not forgetting Jagielka's injuries in recent seasons, just my opinion but if you want to compare Wenger's recent signings at CB of Squillaci/Koscielny I would say that for the price he paid for two of them he could definitely have brought in Vertonghen and he 'could' have got them more points/clean sheets last season because him and Vermaelen have the communication and knowledge of each others game.

No need for the CB to be English/Premier League proven because Vermaelen slotted straight in to the system, and if it was down to me in Wengers position and Vertonghen was available for 10-12m and Jagielka would cost me 18m and Cahill would cost around the same I would go for Vertonghen.

I love Jagielka as a CB but I just don't think for value for money he would give it, especially if you compare his injury record to Vertonghens and the age gap (which I don't think is an issue but age is a factor in Wengers decisions).

Personally I would rather Wenger brought in Vertonghen and Coates as backup, that gives depth in the CB department and a young CB like Coates coming in could really turn into a star and then you would be talking Vermaelen/Vertonghen/Coates with Koscielny/Djourou stepping it up for their place as well. I would happily then say Arsenal's defence is titleworthy.

Don't buy into the fact Arsenal need an Englishman at the back, think they need a proven CB who has good mental attributes to connect with physical/technical attributes.

'What is Wenger thinking', was a sort of vague reference to going for Jagielka over players like Vertonghen/Cahill/Ogbonna/Howedes/Samba even.

The term 'mental' was merely an exaggeration to complement your phrase 'What was Wenger thinking?'.

Although I understand that Vermaelen slotted right in and adapted well, there's no guarantee that Vertonghen would do the same, regardless of Nationality. Wenger wants an EPL proven player because he doesn't want the risk factor, and while being English may not seem important I think it is, if for no other reason than to get people who keep going on about needing a 'commanding English CB' to shut up when it doesn't - or does - improve our defensive performance.

 

[Jamie.]

for no other reason than to get people who keep going on about needing a 'commanding English CB' to shut up

I agree, I personally really want all the ex players to stop banging on about that factor, if you could clone Vermaelens mental attributes and put them into Djourou's body you would have a near perfect combo of Vermaelen+Improved Djourou.

I wonder what these ex players will say if Wenger signs Jagielka and he either gets injured or does poorly, probably something like ''You need 2 English CBs to get the communication 100 pct'' or some Pre 2000 ex professional player BS.

 

[Frank]

Arsenal fans "want him so badly that they come in with a bid lower than what got rejected last year"

how can you quote millions of arsenal fans with one sentence which is ridiculous?

 

[Kris]

Samba would be my choice (should have gone for him in Jan, would have cost you less, and possibly saved a bit of your season)

I agree. The boy is an absolute beast. Think of the aerial threat from corners with Samba and Vermaelen. It will be like the ultimate FM corner cheat! All that'd be missing is Charlie Adam to hit the corners.

how can you quote millions of arsenal fans with one sentence which is ridiculous?

Don't you know? DMF is THE main man in football, He has contacts. Big name footballers read his blog


I don't think of it as a case of Arsenal putting in an embarassing bid. It's just how these things work. They bid in the hope it gets accepted (and why not?) they then come back again and eventually it gets worked out, one way or the other. Starting bids are never going to be too high, clubs want to pay as little as possible.

The same way I don't think they need to have English centre halves specifically but they are an English side and I think the fans want English defenders. They want a bit of fight and 'oomph' that has been missing. I'd love them to sign Cahill & Samba, personally.

 

[Joss]

Never mentioned Wenger was mental, English CB argument is completely irrelevant in my opinion...

It might make a difference if it was a Brazilian and a Frenchman but two Belgian CB's would have the understanding/knowledge/experience together and what is the one aspect in particular Arsenal have lacked in recent seasons between CBs?

Communication. You would presume the 2 of them would know each others game inside out and play with each other for Belgium, for arguments sake you could point to CFC/MUFC sides that have won titles in recent years with one English CB at the forefront in Terry/Ferdinand of each team. Think that Vertonghen would be a better bet, not forgetting Jagielka's injuries in recent seasons, just my opinion but if you want to compare Wenger's recent signings at CB of Squillaci/Koscielny I would say that for the price he paid for two of them he could definitely have brought in Vertonghen and he 'could' have got them more points/clean sheets last season because him and Vermaelen have the communication and knowledge of each others game.

No need for the CB to be English/Premier League proven because Vermaelen slotted straight in to the system, and if it was down to me in Wengers position and Vertonghen was available for 10-12m and Jagielka would cost me 18m and Cahill would cost around the same I would go for Vertonghen.

I love Jagielka as a CB but I just don't think for value for money he would give it, especially if you compare his injury record to Vertonghens and the age gap (which I don't think is an issue but age is a factor in Wengers decisions).

Personally I would rather Wenger brought in Vertonghen and Coates as backup, that gives depth in the CB department and a young CB like Coates coming in could really turn into a star and then you would be talking Vermaelen/Vertonghen/Coates with Koscielny/Djourou stepping it up for their place as well. I would happily then say Arsenal's defence is titleworthy.

Don't buy into the fact Arsenal need an Englishman at the back, think they need a proven CB who has good mental attributes to connect with physical/technical attributes.

'What is Wenger thinking', was a sort of vague reference to going for Jagielka over players like Vertonghen/Cahill/Ogbonna/Howedes/Samba even.

1. Not about being English - about being proven in the EPL. I think it's partly because a lot of fans get frustrated when he pays £10m to sign a player who's been playing in Ligue 2 for the past however many seasons. Not sure people get that there's actually a lot of value in the French market. They don't have ridiculously inflated fees flying about all the time, and tbh - most French clubs have to sell if an English/Spanish team comes along.

But that's irrelevant... The EPL is quick, and probably the best league in the world. The majority of players who come from abroad won't fit in right away, regardless of whether we would have 2 CBs of the same nationality. Some players never adapt at all - it's easy to shine in the Dutch league where there's generally a pretty low standard of quality. We've gone 6 years without a trophy so in a lot of ways, it's back to basics for Wenger - he won't abandon the long term plan, but he will look for experience and less risky transfers.

I don't agree that it's not a risk (or there's less risk) with buying Vertonghen because he's Belgian. He's left-footed (and would therefore likely want to occupy the left CB slot), is very similar to Vermaelen from what I've seen (and we don't need another Vermaelen) and you negate the fact that a defence is about 5 players, not just 2. He has to have an understanding with Sagna, Gibbs and Szczesny too.

2. You say age is a factor. I assume you mean he wants to sign young players? For CB - it's the opposite. Age isn't so much a factor, but experience is. If there's a 25 year old who's played 200 times in the PL and has the right attributes, we'd go for him. But in Jagielka we've got a 29 year old with bags of experience and the right attributes.

3. We don't need a 20 YO CB. That's why I was glad we didn't sign Phil Jones - we have Bartley coming through after a good spell at Rangers, and then we have Miquel behind him. Coates isn't an option IMO.

The term 'mental' was merely an exaggeration to complement your phrase 'What was Wenger thinking?'.

Although I understand that Vermaelen slotted right in and adapted well, there's no guarantee that Vertonghen would do the same, regardless of Nationality. Wenger wants an EPL proven player because he doesn't want the risk factor, and while being English may not seem important I think it is, if for no other reason than to get people who keep going on about needing a 'commanding English CB' to shut up when it doesn't - or does - improve our defensive performance.

This. This "English grit" **** is ridiculously exaggerated IMO.

I agree. The boy is an absolute beast. Think of the aerial threat from corners with Samba and Vermaelen. It will be like the ultimate FM corner cheat! All that'd be missing is Charlie Adam to hit the corners.



Don't you know? DMF is THE main man in football, He has contacts. Big name footballers read his blog


I don't think of it as a case of Arsenal putting in an embarassing bid. It's just how these things work. They bid in the hope it gets accepted (and why not?) they then come back again and eventually it gets worked out, one way or the other. Starting bids are never going to be too high, clubs want to pay as little as possible.

The same way I don't think they need to have English centre halves specifically but they are an English side and I think the fans want English defenders. They want a bit of fight and 'oomph' that has been missing. I'd love them to sign Cahill & Samba, personally.

Two CBs isn't at all likely. TPA is only (estimated) max. £50m and includes wages. Cahill would be on quite high wages, and before we buy 2 CBs we need a (left) forward. Cahill would be on fairly high wages too I imagine - big fee, big-ish wages = roughly £25m from the budget, and then we've already signed Gervinho...

 

[Mike.]

1. Not about being English - about being proven in the EPL. I think it's partly because a lot of fans get frustrated when he pays £10m to sign a player who's been playing in Ligue 2 for the past however many seasons. Not sure people get that there's actually a lot of value in the French market. They don't have ridiculously inflated fees flying about all the time, and tbh - most French clubs have to sell if an English/Spanish team comes along.

But that's irrelevant... The EPL is quick, and probably the best league in the world. The majority of players who come from abroad won't fit in right away, regardless of whether we would have 2 CBs of the same nationality. Some players never adapt at all - it's easy to shine in the Dutch league where there's generally a pretty low standard of quality. We've gone 6 years without a trophy so in a lot of ways, it's back to basics for Wenger - he won't abandon the long term plan, but he will look for experience and less risky transfers.

I don't agree that it's not a risk (or there's less risk) with buying Vertonghen because he's Belgian. He's left-footed (and would therefore likely want to occupy the left CB slot), is very similar to Vermaelen from what I've seen (and we don't need another Vermaelen) and you negate the fact that a defence is about 5 players, not just 2. He has to have an understanding with Sagna, Gibbs and Szczesny too.

2. You say age is a factor. I assume you mean he wants to sign young players? For CB - it's the opposite. Age isn't so much a factor, but experience is. If there's a 25 year old who's played 200 times in the PL and has the right attributes, we'd go for him. But in Jagielka we've got a 29 year old with bags of experience and the right attributes.

3. We don't need a 20 YO CB. That's why I was glad we didn't sign Phil Jones - we have Bartley coming through after a good spell at Rangers, and then we have Miquel behind him. Coates isn't an option IMO.



This. This "English grit" **** is ridiculously exaggerated IMO.



Two CBs isn't at all likely. TPA is only (estimated) max. £50m and includes wages. Cahill would be on quite high wages, and before we buy 2 CBs we need a (left) forward. Cahill would be on fairly high wages too I imagine - big fee, big-ish wages = roughly £25m from the budget, and then we've already signed Gervinho...

Cahill would be biggish fee, but fairly comfortable wages. But agree it will be one centreback to partner Vermaelen.

RE: Jones, he wouldnt have been the only CB, but that's by the by now. Though he is comfortably ahead of the two mention (Fairly big season coming for Bartley)

And dont get me started on "English Grit".... None of the 5 "grittiest players" in the league are English for a start

 

[Joss]

Cahill would be biggish fee, but fairly comfortable wages. But agree it will be one centreback to partner Vermaelen.

RE: Jones, he wouldnt have been the only CB, but that's by the by now. Though he is comfortably ahead of the two mention (Fairly big season coming for Bartley)

And dont get me started on "English Grit".... None of the 5 "grittiest players" in the league are English for a start

I don't mean £100,000+/week wages with Cahill. He'd comfortably be on the wrong side (from AFC's point of view) of £50,000/week IMO, and take the overall expenditure on him up to and probably beyond £20m.

I don't mean I didn't want Jones because he's not experienced etc. (that is a factor, but not my main objection) - he's better than Bartley and Miquel (who isn't close to being First Team for us yet but has a great future from what I've seen of him at all levels) but I'd rather give Bartley a chance than spend £20m ish (overall again) on Jones. As you say, though - that's for another day (or not...)

English grit is just Tony Adams, Stewart Robson and Martin Keown opening their big mouths. As much as I like them all (bar Robson, who's a prat) - it doesn't help at all.