Assistant manager picks the team vs human player picks the team.

[TotalFootballFan9]

First of all... Will, I want you know that I love you(in good meaning ) and your contributions to FM community is immense! And without your testing FM community wouldn't be the same, at least for me...

Honestly, I've tried to leave you alone with your testing and let you have fun but when I see how dumb and ridiculous decision of the assistant manager when he picks the team in your latest test I simple can't hold myself no to show that and how this affects the result of testing and the result of such testing have minimal use for the real game... you should forgive me for that.

Will, your latest testing is a good opportunity to show these things:

1) FM game is not only about tactics, it's also about players and picking the right players for the tactic can boost your result about 30-40% with almost any tactic.

2) The assistant manager is totally incompetent when he picks the team. He simple wasn't designed for such task. He is only capable of doing simple job such as don't pick GK play Striker or don't pick player who 60% condition... that's all.

3) Tactics score about 30% of their total goals from corners and when you test tactics you must be sure that you provide all tactics with proper corner setup during the whole match because without it testing makes no sense. I'm talking about that you must set the right corner takers and know subs for these players.

Here's the latest result of the latest Will's test:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...ctic-testing-fc-european-super-league-v3.html

TACTIC	AUTHOR	FORMATION	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G. D	H.Pts	A.Pts	T.Pts	G.F.C
TFF EXECUTIONER (REBORN) V1	TotalFootballFan9	4-4-2 Asymmetric AM (L)	50	31	9	10	140	76	64	58	44	102	17
Joss Final Overload	lechibaw	4-1-2-3 DM Narrow	50	30	5	15	155	89	66	57	38	95	37
TFF ARMAGEDDON V3	TotalFootballFan9	4-2-3-1 Wide	50	27	7	16	105	64	41	50	38	88	19
Die Guardiola V.3	DerRaumdeuter	3-3-3-1 DM Asymmetric ST (C)	50	26	8	16	94	71	23	56	30	86	19

On example of ARMAGEDDON tactic I'll show how big impact all thing I talked above have on test result.

I used the game save which Will provided - http://www.mediafire.com/download/u55uqh5qy0b5936/ESL_-_TTFC.fm


Here's Will's results of Armageddon tactic test:

1) The assistant manager picks the team.
2) Differently Will didn’t manage to provide the proper corner taker during the whole match.

TACTIC	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
ARMAGEDDON V3	50	27	7	16	105	64	+41	88	19

Here's my result of Armageddon tactic test:

1) I pick the team.
2) I provide proper corner takers during the whole match.

TACTIC	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
ARMAGEDDON V3	50	33	6	7	167	76	+91	103	37

COMPARE TABLE:​

ARMAGEDDON V3 TEST	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
I pick the team, the corners taker are set properly	50	33	6	7	167	76	+91	103	37
the assitant manager picks the team, the corners taker aren't set properly	50	27	7	16	105	64	+41	88	19

As you can see the difference is colossal. Just look on "Goals diference" it's almost twice hihger! Also look at the amount goals from corners is almost twice higher if you properly set the corner takers!








Here's my choice of starting eleven for Armageddon tactic test.

View attachment 275004



Here's the assistant manager's choice of starting eleven for Armageddon tactic test.

View attachment 834968


Other screenshots from my test(also I can proved the game save):

View attachment 275000

View attachment 275003

View attachment 275001

View attachment 275002

​

P.S. Will, as you can see you can spend ton of times picking different players for the testing team and making different testing leagues but all your efforts are for nothing because the assistant manager isn't able to pick the most suited players for the team even the testing team has such players.

There are many way how to fight these issues and still have a proper testing even if you use "Quick Pick" and I've already told you about them.

 

[HCuper]

i completely agree with you about the assman, because of that IMHO the best testing was done by a member here who tested the tactics in polish league or something like that with a weak team. I always test tactics with Cesena beacuse there are not players like Hulk Vela Sneijder Srna to pick and if some tactic is doing wonders with Defrel Hugo Almeida Marilungo and similar "top class players" for sure it will bang with Barca/RealM/Chelsea/Bayern

 

[kallemannen]

True, but all this tactic testing means nothing anyway, you make great tactics TFF
Serioustly it should stop and people should instead actually test tactics themselves and they might actually learn a bit about the game so they can make their own tactics

I dont really get whats the point of even playing FM when you get someone (tactican like TFF) doing the tactic for you, doing the player filters for you, even doing the starter team setup for you, explaning every step how to play the game.

Whats the next step? Just buy an FM bot to simulate the games for you serioustly
Why even sit there and waste time and click around


No, plug and play and tactic testing and all
its great people share tactics with commuinity. But the only fun party really with FM is simulating how you would do as manager
And I cant see people doing that with a game breaking plug and play

I dont know, its like playing fifa, and you go to a forum called "Fifa-Base" and there people make great plug and play bot programs who can play the matches for you so you can win every game on fifa you play.
instead of learning it and becoming good and actually playing yourself.

 

[jasonbhoys]

True, but all this tactic testing means nothing anyway, you make great tactics TFF
Serioustly it should stop and people should instead actually test tactics themselves and they might actually learn a bit about the game so they can make their own tactics

I dont really get whats the point of even playing FM when you get someone (tactican like TFF) doing the tactic for you, doing the player filters for you, even doing the starter team setup for you, explaning every step how to play the game.

Whats the next step? Just buy an FM bot to simulate the games for you serioustly
Why even sit there and waste time and click around


No, plug and play and tactic testing and all
its great people share tactics with commuinity. But the only fun party really with FM is simulating how you would do as manager
And I cant see people doing that with a game breaking plug and play

Everyone is entitled to play the game how they choose

 

[kallemannen]

Everyone is entitled to play the game how they choose

Just as entitled as I am to express my opinion.
I saw vujcevic mention something about player filters and he got bashed for doing that, I mean serioustly

You are by all means entitled to play the game as you want.
I just cant belive how you can find it entertaining.

If I make a fifa comparison again.
Its like, you are playing the game on beginner mode winning 25-0 every game and enjoying that.
instead of putting urself out there online, playing against others, loosing but learning the game.

But mate I got something you can try if u want, just a tip, I tried it and it got me starting to make tactics and play the game for real

Take over a team like burnley, use no advice or other peoples tactic and try and survive a season
SUPER fun

 

[HCuper]

to kallemannen - the point of the game is clear to make a tactic by yourself see how it goes and retry until you succeed. I personaly think the game became too complicated to enjoy some playing between a job and private life because of that i downloaded a lot of tactics for the last 2 FM series.

 

[Pogrebnik]

but all of it is not important. what is important to see many tactics how they perform. its not importatnt in every point but to be close. all you have said is not important (or not so important) because he can't play all that tactic testing there is no time.

for me one thing is much more important and that is to try all tactics. he only tries about 10 tactics all over again. all the time.

and just to make you see what I mean is lets say KillerBee wasn't nown before he put it in test now it is one of most used tactics.

that is the point. to make some tactics maybe not so used to shine.


and one more thing for this.

Try your test one more time. you want get as near results as now. so if you just want results are random too.

I agree your test is much more acurate but it is just not so important cause it takes a looooot of time. maybe if he plays I dont know only 10 games but then it is not so accurate again. and again there is luck.

 

[kallemannen]

to kallemannen - the point of the game is clear to make a tactic by yourself see how it goes and retry until you succeed. I personaly think the game became too complicated to enjoy some playing between a job and private life because of that i downloaded a lot of tactics for the last 2 FM series.

The point of the game, or how it is "supposed" to be played, not saying people should play this way.
But that is not to just make one "super tactic".
Its to adapt every game

If u ever tried that playstyle, its kind of fun but so time demanding that I will never do it.
But initially, it is to adapt to your opponent

For example, you are underdog, opponent got great players but slow defenders, so you use a formation that can counter them well depending on their formation, quick play and so on and you will win, set OI

Then maybe u have an easy game against a pacey team and then of course u go control and break them down but u are careful not to be countered.

So adaption is the key.
But yeah, who got time for that? Just saying how the Game developers and the nerds at sigames forum play the game

 

[TotalFootballFan9]

REBORN V1 TEST


Here's Will's results of REBRON tactic test:

1) The assistant manager picks the team.

TACTIC	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
REBORN V1	50	31	9	10	140	76	+64	102	17

Here's my result of REBORN tactic test:

1) I pick the team.

TACTIC	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
REBORN V1	50	37	4	9	157	56	+101	115	18

COMPARE TABLE:​

REBORN V1 TEST	Pld	Won	Drn	Lst	For	Ag	G.D.	Pts	G.F.C.
I pick the team	50	37	4	9	157	56	+101	115	18
The assitant manager picks the team	50	31	9	10	140	76	+64	102	17

As you can see the difference is colossal! It has huge impact on the test's results what players were used for the test.









Here's my choice of starting eleven for REBORN V1 tactic test.

View attachment 274889





Here's the assistant manager's choice of starting eleven for REBORN V1 tactic test.

View attachment 835280





Other screenshots from my test(also I can proved the game save):

View attachment 274890

View attachment 274891

View attachment 274893

View attachment 274892
​

 

[TotalFootballFan9]

The most tragic thing about the assistant managers picks the team during the testing is that for some tactics he could pick more suited and stronger players and for other tactic much weaker players. It happens, as I already said before, because the assistant manager's option "Quick Pick" wasn't been designed for such complicated task and if you have enough FM experience you can easily see it and when Will spend his time on creating different testing leagues and picking different players for the test team in hope that if the test team has all kind of players it help improve testing but all this is for nothing and it's just simple waste of time because the testing team can have all kind of players but the assistant manage still will be making dumb choices. As I said sometimes the assistant gets "lucky" when picks the team for some tactics because these tactics may have specific formation and roles and even for him there are "obvious" decision whom to pick.

As you can see I only changed about 4-5 players for starting eleven and it helped to boost "Goal Difference" for ARMAGEDDON tactic about 100% and for REBORN about 66%... impressive isn't it? Now just think what impact it has on the final testing result if the assistant manager pick for some tactic few players better suited/stronger than for other tactic? As you can see it has huge impact on the result!

Now you see why one person can have great success with the tactic and other person can greatly struggles with it even if both of them play with the same team.

Understanding about players is no less important than understanding about tactics and your FM success consists I would say about 40%(tactics)/60%(players). Heh, anyone can make sure of this just pick Barcelona and you’ll see that almost any tactic work with this club.

If you think that Will's style testing can help you save your time and find the best tactic than I'll say you are wrong because it can easily make opposit... It can buried good tactical approaches and give live false approaches because there's only one way to have "fair" compare for the tactic it’s provide all tactics with equal and suited players... Heh, also there's a ton of other stuff you should take into consideration when you test tactics such the corner setup and many more... but it's different story

 

[Pogrebnik]

heheh. but what you see from your test is the same as what you see from Will's and that is that rebornis better than armagedon. you got same results. only he got worse because ofcourse of *** manager.

but it still shows pretty much the same table.

I am not saying your way isn't better. it is. if someone whants to do this great fantastic I just don't think anybody would like to do this testing for long time.

and in my opinion there are some great tactics that need to be tested. If more people would use them maybe they could come up with some amazing tactics from them.

 

[TotalFootballFan9]

and that is that rebornis better than armagedon.

The purpose of this thread isn't to show who is the best and who is the worst and I won't retest other tactics and show that they are weaker or stronger.

The purpose of this thread is to show that testing in Will's testing style doesn't helps at all to find the best tactic or at least show the right direction where to look because it has these issues which kill everything:

1) As you can see I showed that if you use few different players which are more stronger/suited for the testing then it can turn apart all results and as you can see I managed to get boost for "Goal Difference" in ARMAGEDDON test about 100% and in REBORN test about 66% and such different is huge! It isn't just few %.

2) The same time I showed that even 200CA assistant manager isn't capable to choose the most stronger and suited players for the tactic because he simple wasn't designed for such complicated task and testing tactics with "Quick Pick" option is total random and lottery because for some tactics he can pick the more stronger/suited players and for some tactics he can pick the weaker/badly suited players and in my testing I showed how big impact it can have on the final result.

3) For some reason Will can't provide the proper corner taker during the whole match... I don't know maybe he doesn't understand how to do that but definitely he didn't manage to do that when tested ARMAGEDDON tactic and you can see in my test when I managed to provide the proper corners takers the tactic scored 37 goals from corners vs 19 goals from corners and how do you think such big difference would make impact on the final result?

Also before I showed that even if you mange to fight all these issue I just talked above which bring colossal randomness into the testing and make your testing stand free of them then the testing is still very random on 50 match distance and I showed that it can vary about 30% and it need to test the tactic at least for 120-180 matches to have clear pictures.

I agree your test is much more acurate but it is just not so important cause it takes a looooot of time. maybe if he plays I dont know only 10 games but then it is not so accurate again. and again there is luck.

Btw, it takes me only about 10-15 minutes test longer when I pick the team vs I use "Quick Pick". Also as I said it's still possible to test with "Quick Pick" but you need to configure your testing team in such why to limit choice for the assistant manage so you always know who him picks.

 

[Mikeyokeyy]

TFF, if I send you my tactic can you test it?

thanks!

 

[con871]

why not just let will keep simming them and we just assume that we do a bit better than whats on his score sheet? If will has to do it all on himself it means less tactics will be tested. so lets say the total points of (insert tactic here) got 103 points lets assume we are smarter the the assistant and boost that number by 10-20%?

 

[TotalFootballFan9]

Heh, the latest Will's result with Leicester it's a good opportunities to show how different the result could be when you play "Quick Pick" + "Instant Result" vs "Proper play".

When I say "Proper play" I mean these:

1) You choose and pick players for the team and not your assistant manager.
2) You rebuild the team to suite the tactic.
2) You normally play matches by yourself and don’t use "Instant Result".

Here's Will’s result with Leicester, 1st season. He uses "Quick Pick", "Instant Result" and Tinkerman's Goalscoring Strikefore tactc and if he shows these results then probably he thinks they are somehow impressive

View attachment 839586









Here's my result with Leicester, 1st season. I use REBORN tactics and play game "properly".

I've only played so far 24 match but I'll update the result when I finish the season and we can compare

Here you can download my save - TFF_Leicester_

View attachment 273168

P.S. as I said when I finish the season I'll upload the rest of it.

 

[bantons]

Heh, the latest Will's result with Leicester it's a good opportunities to show how different the result could be when you play "Quick Pick" + "Instant Result" vs "Proper play".

When I say "Proper play" I mean these:

1) You choose and pick players for the team and not your assistant manager.
2) You rebuild the team to suite the tactic.
2) You normally play matches by yourself and don’t use "Instant Result".

Here's Will’s result with Leicester, 1st season. He uses "Quick Pick", "Instant Result" and Tinkerman's Goalscoring Strikefore tactc and if he shows these results then probably he thinks they are somehow impressive

View attachment 839586









Here's my result with Leicester, 1st season. I use REBORN tactics and play game "properly".

I've only played so far 24 match but I'll update the result when I finish the season and we can compare

Here you can download my save - TFF_Leicester_

View attachment 839589

P.S. as I said when I finish the season I'll upload the rest of it.

How many goals was from corners?

 

[TotalFootballFan9]

Here's the final save(Leicester, 1st season) – TFF__Leicester

I finished the 3rd and also won FA cup.

View attachment 273094


Will's result with Leicester, 1st season

View attachment 839767

How many goals was from corners?

View attachment 273095

 

[bantons]

only 7.. I was expecting 30-40

 

[macca72]

More importantly, look at the goals conceeded, jeez, if you could knock 15 goals off that, you'd be bordering on something ultra sensastional.

TFF, If you have uploaded your save file, I might run some analysis on goals conceded.

Edit: I see it now.

 

[macca72]

A couple of interesting patterns in the goals conceded...

At home, of the 25 goals conceded, 12 came when the game was level
At home, of the 25 goals conceded, 10 came in the last 25 minutes

So that leads me to think that when taking the lead, taking the sting out of the game for a while would be a good shout. Similarly, having a couple of tweaks for last 25 mins would be useful.

Away, of the 37 goals conceded, 20 came when you were leading the game

Again, having a slight tweak when taking the lead away from home would be useful.

I'm not sure what these tweaks might be, but I'm going to give this tactic a bash and see what I can come up with. It clearly doesn't have to be drastic, just maybe playing a little more conservative.