Creative freedom 20 or Creative freedom 0 ? - 99% get it wrong!

[jesaustralia]

Hmmmm.......just for chatting - Anyone free to say something!

Creative Freedom:
I've been both reading but also checking inside the match engine, to find out the mystery about this godforsaken slider. Some people came up with that its like an artist slider, so if you have someone with huge amounts of flair but skill as well, they can be highly efficient in the 3D engine, however someone said decision not needed he had a player with decision 9 and he was amazing his flair was 19. Another person said decision is needed. A 3rd person said CF is given to someone talented not always a high flair player - its an abstract concept.

Don't mind me - ANNOYING! - Sorry.

I started to create a new tactic and I gave all players 0 CF with barcelona on a direct passing style mostly - that + lots of midfielders 2mc and 2 amc and only 2 defenders and 1 striker 2wingers. unfluid 1st match 5-0 win vs one of the best teams in the world Roma 10 clear cut chances - high possession as well as great on the counter. I guess players can function well without CF. This is a total restriction to do anything I tell them too do.

If I have a player with 20 flair and very skillful which i have (Le Bigot) then he should benefit massively from creative freedom 20. He's basically a Zinedine Zidane if that can give you the correct picture of his profile. Such a player should do his own thing, but were given 0 CF. I think like 89% maybe 99% of people gets this slider wrong (Interpret). You don't ask the player to not listen to you and override the individual instructions
(long shots - run with ball etc.) You ask the player to do amazing things within the instructions. Its not an ignore setting as so many say.

So what is it ? Ronaldinho with player instruction run with ball often - everything else set to rare - Creative freedom 20 he would probably be how we know him when he peaked in Barcelona (easy to analyze) - same instruction RWB often creative freedom 0 (not easy to analyze) - Some say he has less options because he's restricted to take advantage of his amazing skills that he's so good at. hmmmmmmm, so with less options I imagine he's told not to do his magic dribling, what sort of dribling will he do then?

So an email to Ronaldinho would be if creative freedom set to 0. Dear Ronaldinho - Don't make all those amazing looking street football tricks that you do, they are to inefficient for our tactic. Sounds like you take away his joy of playing doesn't it.?

Then why have a player like Ronaldinho if that is how you wanna use him?

I did an experiment:
I played with Le Bigot which is a regent but a big star with 20 flair and several High skills. First creative freedom 0 and he played amazing he had several chances where he was in one on one with the goalie - he scored 1 and made 1 assist. The game after I gave him 20 creative freedom the same i did with the wingers because they are very skillful, I think they under performed compared to creative freedom 0.

Whats your experiences with this? - do you feel its better to restrict great talent or boost less skillful players like defenders a little. ?

Would Ronaldinho become to much of a circus clown with max CF - ?

Why could some succeed with a player at flair 19 and max creative freedom and no decisions at 9 - I thought high decisions was needed. ?

Defenders (players without flair) look better with creative freedom 10 when it comes to passing - But they defend really good at creative freedom 0 as well - what to choose the TC?

I welcome anyone playing FM06 - FM2099 to give their thoughts and opinions on this subject as I feel this slider is the most interesting slider their is in the game and would love to understand why you do with it the way you do.
So write you experience with creative freedom its important for everyone to fully understant. Please don't write flair boost - we have established that already. I rather come up with a formula together.

Like 20 Flair and high skills=0 CF
19 Flair and High skills=1 CF
1 Flair and high skills=20 CF

I hope you get where I want to go with this - and even if you wanna test it with me it would be cool!

The Hand of God - From SIGAMES

IMO, "Decisions" is really more of an important attribute for "Creative Freedom" than "Creativity." "Creative Freedom", in essence, expands the number of options that a player will consider when choosing what to do. High "Creativity" will mean that a player will "see" a broader number of options, but high "Creative Freedom" only means he will consider the full range of options he "sees," it doesn't mean he'll actually pick the best one. That is what "Decisions" does, and high Decisions/high CF will give you a player with a tendency to always pick the best option that he recognizes. Thus, high CF is good even for high-Decision players with low Creativity, as you will simply be giving them more options to choose from, even if their natural repertoire is rather limited. An example would be a low-creativity/high-decisions mid-fielder in a short-passing system. Even though he won't "see" a very broad range of options, you may still want him to go for an obvious long ball when it would actually be the best decision.

As far as I know, "Creative Freedom" is only indirectly related to "Flair." High-Flair players aren't necessarily more creative in the sense of being able to recognize more options, but they do generally choose options that defenders aren't expecting. In terms of the game's mechanics, high-flair players make decisions that are less likely to be predicted by a defender's "Anticipation," thus increasing the probability that the defender will make a mistake himself. High-flair/high-creativity players have a greater probability of totally confounding a defender, but again, high-flair does not necessarily equate to high creativity. Additionally, high-flair/high-CF means you are expanding the range of options for the player to choose from, and if combined with low-Decisions, you are greatly increasing the probability that the player will do something silly.

Regarding the "lumbering striker" example, high-CF may help him take his time on a shot or it may make him ****** at his chances. It depends on his overall mentality setting. A player set to high CF and an attacking mentality will be more likely to go with a more defensive or low-risk approach if he thinks its the right thing to do while a player set to high CF and a defensive mentality will be more likely to take a bold risk if the right opportunity presents itself.

In regards to centrebacks, it depends on their passing setting. A standard centreback set to short passes and low CF will be more likely to pass to a fullback or defensive midfielder while a limited centreback set to long passes and low CF will be more likely to hoof the ball as far away as he can. A high-CF centreback with a defensive mentality will generally choose the option with the lowest risk while a high-CF centreback with an attacking mentality will often go for options that have a good probability of leading to a goal-scoring opportunity.

More swearing and more saying the word JESUS! - confused yet? - well when that is said I actually like his explanation. I think the hand of god is saying something interesting - Decisions! - Maybe decisions could dictate tactics more when creating them, when that is said I'm still frustrated that my highly gifted Barcelona team play like a dream offensively without CF. I limit their options which result in results like 5-0 5-0

Wow wow wow wow
READ THIS! - I think it has to do with their PPM's = Moves Into Channels, Likes to Beat Offside Trap, Likes to Round Keeper, Shoots with Power. They are able to score a wider variety of opportunities now.
My question Does he then need decisions hehe?

I write this to myself in order to reference this for the future - feel free to do the same.

Defensive Central Defender - will choose low risk options
passing=5-10
CF=15-20
Mentality defensive 4-7

Attacking Central Defender - More risk
mentality 15-20
CF=15-20
passing=10-15

More notes to self and thinking loud
I wish we could create a framework

Work well together
High creative freedom
High decision
skills
Bonus: Creativity

Creative Freedom in essence, expands the number of options that a player will consider
Creativity mean that a player will "see" a broader number of options
high Decisions/high CF will give you a player with a tendency to always pick the best option that he recognizes

Would you give a defender skillfull and 20 in decisions CF=20?
My answer currently - I would maybe do this if his skills are a compliment to the game and he would know best right?

Flair boost is a slack explanation in my opinion and I think this explanation blinds people cause when people are talking about flair they are talking about Zinedine Zidane - Diego Maradona - Messi - Ronaldo-C etc, they are not talking about Daniel Agger or other technical gifted defenders (Several Brazilians) - Flair boost is not just for an offensive player!.

Cheers and have a good day - please comment on this I would love to hear it!

 

[Ossis Mandos]

I don’t know enough about the sliders to really comment. I look at the team screen and you can have “more expressive”, “default” or “more disciplined” on creative freedom. So I'd chose one of those.

In regards sliders, does the mentality also come into play or not?

 

[jesaustralia]

Thread updated!

Please tell us your experiences with creative freedom i don't care if its a newer fm or an older version its all relevant

 

[jesaustralia]

Yes 100% Ossis - But its more how forward or backward thinking the player is, but for sure it all counts
What seems to count the most though is a combination between Decisions and skills, doesn't have to be flair related as I see it.

 

[Jatjr]

Hmm, am I getting the right impression that flair is like creativity. As stated, creativity allows what options the player see. Flair basically gives secondary options to creativity (available choices)? (not expanding...)

I mean for example, creativity has allowed the player to see options such as A, B, C choices. Flair provides secondary options, if creativity allows, A.2, A.3, B.2, and B.3 ? (not D, E, F as creativity would expand?)

 

[jesaustralia]

Hmm, am I getting the right impression that flair is like creativity. As stated, creativity allows what options the player see. Flair basically gives secondary options to creativity (available choices)? (not expanding...)

I mean for example, creativity has allowed the player to see options such as A, B, C choices. Flair provides secondary options, if creativity allows, A.2, A.3, B.2, and B.3 ? (not D, E, F as creativity would expand?)

That's not correct its more trick based - like an extraordinary action - dribble, tackling,heading,movement or my favourite a creative pass (killer ball) - Its the ability to do the unexpected - this is where the 3D match engine lack big time - Flair is uniqueness like only a few people do things this way and people watching can tell who you are from this action because they have seen you doing it before, like C.Ronaldo's step over dribbling or Diego Maradona's gambeta dribbling or even the old fashioned dribbler Brian Laudrup when he played or his brother Michael who made the most amazing killer balls for Barcelona.

Referring back to the 3D match engine and flair, I wish they would create a match engine with huge varieties like many different ways of dribbling or many different ways of finishing or heading so it become less robotic and more exciting to watch the 3d games. Football manager console anyone? Are you fresh to create it variety should be your game. I want to wake up in the morning and hate that i have to do other stuff than playing football manager, I want to be excited! because new things keep on happening in my football manager console. Just a little side thought from me

Cheers pal

 

[Wee jock poo pong Mcplop]

Hello Jesaustralia.

Just my opinion:
To me it sounds like LE BIGOT is the wrong player to be testing this sider with. His flair level is too high to be affected (imo).
A player with 20 flair and high creativity (skill) is god like and will flout conventions.
Rules do not really apply to such mortals, he may be mildly less creative with creative freedom set to 0 but his innate skill will not be suppressed.

I keep notes and pointers I have gathered from the net to help me when building new tactics, here is one of my notes for creative freedom:

Creative Freedom
If Creative Freedom is low, the player is very likely to adhere to his tactical role/instructions.
The higher Creative Freedom is set the wider a player is given freedom to look for and play the other passes if:

• a) he sees them (Creativity)
  
• b) he's composed enough to try them (composure)
  
• c) he decides it is the better option (decisions)

The lower Creative Freedom is set, the smaller a players range of options will be.

In all this flair is a random factor, his moments of genius level (or moments of insanity)
It's something you cannot predict and it's something you cannot bottle, it's the unpredictable and no slider can contain it, so don't bother trying.
(it's like buying an eccentric goalie and trying to keep him on his line...NOT GONNA HAPPEN)

 

[jesaustralia]

Hello Jesaustralia.

Just my opinion:
To me it sounds like LE BIGOT is the wrong player to be testing this sider with. His flair level is too high to be affected (imo).
A player with 20 flair and high creativity (skill) is god like and will flout conventions.
Rules do not really apply to such mortals, he may be mildly less creative with creative freedom set to 0 but his innate skill will not be suppressed.

I keep notes and pointers I have gathered from the net to help me when building new tactics, here is one of my notes for creative freedom:




In all this flair is a random factor, his moments of genius level (or moments of insanity)
It's something you cannot predict and it's something you cannot bottle, it's the unpredictable and no slider can contain it, so don't bother trying.
(it's like buying an eccentric goalie and trying to keep him on his line...NOT GONNA HAPPEN)

Well on the internet their is yet another good post on the subject creative freedom - thanks for that mate. It makes perfect sense.
You are opening my eyes - to understand it better.

So Le Bigot - will do his own thing no matter level of CF? - Will his flair override all the sliders?

So your statement I translate into "CF help players of lesser flair quality to improve their game - passing - runs - crosses - tackling" If they have skills needed to back it up - Decisions - Composure - Creativity - Anticipation for a striker.

Flair Boost

So for getting this high CF He'll need high mental stats especially decisions above anything else and skills - Flair not needed

So what Flair level and creativity level can we agree on is Godlike and won't get affected by high CF? 16-20

 

[Wee jock poo pong Mcplop]

So Le Bigot - will do his own thing no matter level of CF? - Will his flair override all the sliders?

So your statement I translate into "CF help players of lesser flair quality to improve their game - passing - runs - crosses - tackling" If they have skills needed to back it up - Decisions - Composure - Creativity - Anticipation for a striker.

Le Bigot is and animal, he should be locked up.

This is for me one of the most vague and conflicting issues.
I read one thing and it make complete sense and then I read something else that contradicts the first thing and it also makes perfect sense :S ...

But I guess Flair boost is as good a simplification as it gets.
But TBH (personally) I'm not sure if flair actually impacts on whether a player runs with the ball more or makes more attacking runs or plays more through balls, back heels, flank to flank passes etc, or even if CF impacts on flair.
It's like mentality being linked to aggression, not just how aggressive a player is phisically but also how aggressive he is with his passing and that links back to CF, so it's not something I have totally ruled out.

A workman like player will just try to round his man, a flair player will try 5 or 6 step overs, body fake left and go right and nutmeg the player at the same time. MEGS!!

Sometimes the more I think about it, the more it just hurts my brain. :S

 

[Jake]

In basic terms, the more creative freedom you assign to a player, the more he will ignore the rigidity of your overall team instructions, or his own personal instructions. So for example if you tell the team to pass down the right flank mainly, a player assigned with high creative freedom may choose to go down the middle or the left as well/instead at various points in the game.

Equally, if you tell a player to dribble rarely, shoot from distance rarelt or try killer balls rarely etc, but give a high creative freedom, the player may well ignore you.

In this sense, you are best only assigning one or two players with a high creative freedom if you wish to stick to your team structure/philosophy. And if you a small/underdog team you may not want to assign much creative freedom at all, in order to maintain a disciplined shape and tactic.

 

[jesaustralia]

In basic terms, the more creative freedom you assign to a player, the more he will ignore the rigidity of your overall team instructions, or his own personal instructions. So for example if you tell the team to pass down the right flank mainly, a player assigned with high creative freedom may choose to go down the middle or the left as well/instead at various points in the game.

Equally, if you tell a player to dribble rarely, shoot from distance rarelt or try killer balls rarely etc, but give a high creative freedom, the player may well ignore you.

In this sense, you are best only assigning one or two players with a high creative freedom if you wish to stick to your team structure/philosophy. And if you a small/underdog team you may not want to assign much creative freedom at all, in order to maintain a disciplined shape and tactic.

Hey JAKE - this is brilliant - another one I wanna say thank you to for contributing and giving a really good answer to this thread. It makes alot of sense what you are saying, but so does other explanations, but lets just go back a little and look at what we got.

WEE Said:

Creative Freedom
If Creative Freedom is low, the player is very likely to adhere to his tactical role/instructions.
The higher Creative Freedom is set the wider a player is given freedom to look for and play the other passes if:
· a) he sees them (Creativity)
· b) he's composed enough to try them (composure)
· c) he decides it is the better option (decisions)

The lower Creative Freedom is set, the smaller a players range of options will be.

ME:
In all respect - JAKE!

With your explanation - Why give the players creative freedom at all when you create tactics - according to what you are saying it seems to me only very special talent should have this?

Wee saids it gives more options to the player - wouldn't we want all the players to have more options in terms of passing - runs - finishing - tackling etc. ?

Me: What wee saids is the very reason why I use creative freedom the way I do when creating tactics - I want my players to have more options - When I give my average good defender 10-15 in CF it is because I want him to have more options even if he's rather mediocre.

Me Looking in the match engine it seems to me the player becomes better at what he's good at with more CF or even better at his worse skills. I don't like the defenders to hoof the ball away unless they are in a very dangerous situation, so When I give them CF 10-15 they suddenly make a nice pass to someone free further up the field - its like he suddenly look for more alternatives - becomes more intelligent in terms of a right pass in this situation. I know his skills and specific mental stats help him as well - like decisions - composure - creativity & passing in this example. Giving him less creative freedom will make him look stupid - hoofing the ball away while their is plenty of better options available.

I don't get the feeling when watching the 3D match engine - that player with higher CF Ignore player instructions - Also reason why I am not scared to use CF on all players. CF is for me more important than people give it credit for. However if what you say JAKE is correct then I will never again give CF to anyone when I create tactics, because it wouldn't make sense to me if my players ignore my instructions.

Lets read - The Hand Of God again. My head hurts after reading this again!

The Hand of God - From SIGAMES in short

Creative Freedom= Number of Options player will consider

Higher creativity= See a broader number of options

Higher Decisions= Will pick the best option available

High Decisions/CF= Will pick the best option that he recognize (Highest creativity=How many options player sees)

If 20 in Decisions/CF/Creativity= Player will Consider all - See all - And Choose the best one=Amazing!

This is how I wanna see it - nothing about ignoring instructions. "Doesn't mean that they don't though".

I think you want some positions to consider all options especially further up the field and should be the reason why you want more rigidness for more defensive players - according to this framework example though it seems safe to give a defender with 20 in decisions 20 in creative freedom if he also has skills along with it ofcause! - what do you think?

Players don't ignore player instruction's - or do they?
Again I will say it doesn't look to me that the players ignore instructions on high creative freedom - however the players that I have available to me is highly intelligent and skillfull and can't basically do anything wrong.

So it seems like to me that creative freedom can't be tested with such a team. If your team consists of high decisions and skillfull players I think they can with ease in the stomach be given 15-20 on the CF slider.

At this point I partially agree with JAKE - players will ignore player instructions, and can probably be easily seen on lesser talented teams.

Reflecting - Not A Conclusion:

Ignoring player instructions with a world class team - you will probably not be able to see that they ignore the player instructions! - If a player decides to take a long shot its because its the right thing to do at that time combined with his skill long shot= he knows if he should take that option. Often my team looks like they are following the script with high CF.

Take a good look on how the CF framework works in Mr Langvatn's tactics - Lots of players/positions are given less CF and his tactics are all advertised as "Underdog tactics" - while my own tactics are advertised as "Best teams tactic's" - No wonder that Mr. Langvatn have so many success stories with talentless teams!. When people test my tactics lesser teams fail!.

If player have low decisions and high CF it will be a disaster even if player is skillfull.

Would their be a good reason why I wouldn't give my very talented team high CF using for instance Mr. Langvatn's tactic?

Looking at this one more time

Creative Freedom= Number of Options player will consider

Higher creativity= See a broader number of options

Higher Decisions= Will pick the best option available

High Decisions/CF= Will pick the best option that he recognize (Highest creativity=How many options player sees)

Would a highly talented player do Well - Exellent if CF=0 ? (Very Important question - What's your experience - Anyone)
Why would I only give CF to a few - with my highly talented team?

Reading this post back it sounds like I have it all figured out! - I just wanna say that is not the case! - I don't have the golden explanation I'm reflecting on things said about this slider and on the experiences that I have had when adopting high CF for my Barcelona team. I am trying to make sense of it all in order to improve my own tactics in the future
(Hopefully with higher understanding).

I'm ready to change at any moment. I just want together with you to come as close to a conclusion about the creative freedom slider and how to treat them when creating the next tactic - I hope that makes sense .

Cheers mates - & I really appreciates everyones input so far - Its a pleasure!