Debacle

[cocogas]

In all the games that I play my team starts to lose consecutive matches, sinking in the table and I end up being fired.
It is something truly extraordinary as my players can play very well at first and then lose to any rival.
Does anyone else have the same thing? I have tried to adapt my tactics but the game looks completely disjointed with constant long balls towards my strikers and a total defensive passivity. I don't really know what to do anymore.
Can someone help me?

 

[Bigpapa42]

I doubt anyone is going to be help much with that amount of information. Those type of actions don't tend to happen on their own - they are tactical settings. Using a target man, for example, means you players will lump the ball forward to that player. Using limited defenders or direct passing can result in similar, although the intent is a bit different. Defensive passivity can happen for a few reasons, but its quite often down to what you are asking your players to do (through role n duty and/or Team Instructions).

But for any real assistance, you will need to provide significantly more information. Not just the formation, but the shape, mentality, roles n duties, team instructions, and any personal instructions.

 

[cocogas]

I doubt anyone is going to be help much with that amount of information. Those type of actions don't tend to happen on their own - they are tactical settings. Using a target man, for example, means you players will lump the ball forward to that player. Using limited defenders or direct passing can result in similar, although the intent is a bit different. Defensive passivity can happen for a few reasons, but its quite often down to what you are asking your players to do (through role n duty and/or Team Instructions).

But for any real assistance, you will need to provide significantly more information. Not just the formation, but the shape, mentality, roles n duties, team instructions, and any personal instructions.

My tactic is 442: fb su, cb de, cd de, fb at,
w at, cm su, cm de, wp su,
df su, af at

I don't use any instructions but I may add them during a match.


The intention is crossing game. On the right, winger and on the left the fullback crossing.
Inside the area to finish the two forwards and the midfielder arriving in second wave. Even the winger.
Outside the box, they expect my other midfielder and the wide playmaker. The two centerbacks and the right-handed fullback are left behind.
To defend, two lines of four. If the opponent is very strong sometimes change to 4141 but it is not my main idea.


The problems I'm finding can be summed up in:
-I'm not sure how to place my strikers. Sometimes I change sides but I don't have the clear ideas.
-The midfielders of the opposing team have plenty of space. My players don't push, they leave room to the opposition to think. I can't control the center of the field, even when the challenger uses 442 and has no more players in the middle. For my players to press more I push the line defensive or closing down, change role to ballwinning midfielder, use OI or even all at once but my players are still too passive.
-Space behind my left-handed fullback. It is not so much a problem in transition attack-defense, it is more when we are consolidated in defensive position. He leaves his position by pressing an opponent while the wide playmaker goes too far towards the middle and does not help to cover the flank.
-I have serious problems controlling possession, often below 40%. The ball goes directly from my headquarters to my front or the opponent. I'm not against direct play, but this is too much. We lose the ball very easily. We played it without intelligence. I try to get my cb to pass short with Play out the defense or removing risky passes but they still hoof the ball.

-Too much space between my central midfielders and my winger. My winger stays wide, which is fine because I want width, but it's not available for the pass because it's too far away. I tried to use a wide midfielder instead but nothing improves
- I score a good number of goals, despite everything. It is more a problem of defensive stability and control of possession
​

 

[Bigpapa42]

You didn't say anything about mentality, or TIs. Those are kinda important.

 

[cocogas]

You didn't say anything about mentality, or TIs. Those are kinda important.

I don't use any instructions but I may add them during a match. The same with mentality and shape, so standard flexible no instructions.

​

If I see that my CB do not pass short, use play out the defense
If there is too much space between my defense and midfield, I push my defensive line higher.
If I see too much urgency in my players to get the ball forward, I use short passing, or lower mentality.
If I see my strikers isolated, I may change the shape to fluid.
And so on..

 

[Bigpapa42]

Regarding the passing issue, the main reasons that ends up happening is lack of options for the player on the ball. Using a target man cause that a bit (its kinda in the name), and so does really direct passing, especially if your mentality was high. Since those don't seem to be the case, its most likely options. Your primary passing option is going to be the wide playmaker. When he gets the ball, what are his options? Are the strikers close enough to make thru balls a reasonable option? He will have the close MC, the fullback... what else? The full field coverage of a 4-4-2 is an advantage, but the lack of close options for each player is a drawback. You need to make sure that players have passing options, that players are moving to create space to move into.

The formation may also contribute a bit to the possession issue. When your defender has the ball, what are his passing options? The fullback on his side and the other central defender. The winger and central mid may be close enough to be available, but not always. Especially if the opposition is pressing and/or cutting off passing. Not to say a possession minded tactic can't use a 4-4-2, but its not what most clubs do typically.

If you drop the fullback from attack to support, what does that do to the space he leaves?

The wide playmaker is a playmaker. Even on support, he's only going to continue so much. Same with the opposite winger, who has an attacking focus. He will help defensively but its not really what you are asking him to do.

If you have too much space, the Narrower TI can help that. You can't expect players to tuck in and play compact if you aren't telling them do that.

This is where watching the matches, stopping, and really analyzing comes in really helpfully. If players are making poor decisions, stopping to look what their other options were can be very revealing.

It could also come down to players. You haven't mentioned the club or what level you are at. That might explain overly passive or ineffectually pressing midfielders. Pressing doesn't require top quality players, but if they are not aggressive and have no work-rate, they aren't going to apply it effectively.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 4-4-2. Every formation has its strengths and weaknesses. There also isn't anything totally out of kilter with your shape and mentality, roles and duties, etc. But something isn't balanced. The shape and mentality basically shape the tactic - how you play. Staying in the middle isn't really wrong, but you aren't really giving a particularly approach off the top.

 

[cocogas]

Regarding the passing issue, the main reasons that ends up happening is lack of options for the player on the ball. Using a target man cause that a bit (its kinda in the name), and so does really direct passing, especially if your mentality was high. Since those don't seem to be the case, its most likely options. Your primary passing option is going to be the wide playmaker. When he gets the ball, what are his options? Are the strikers close enough to make thru balls a reasonable option? He will have the close MC, the fullback... what else? The full field coverage of a 4-4-2 is an advantage, but the lack of close options for each player is a drawback. You need to make sure that players have passing options, that players are moving to create space to move into.

The formation may also contribute a bit to the possession issue. When your defender has the ball, what are his passing options? The fullback on his side and the other central defender. The winger and central mid may be close enough to be available, but not always. Especially if the opposition is pressing and/or cutting off passing. Not to say a possession minded tactic can't use a 4-4-2, but its not what most clubs do typically.

If you drop the fullback from attack to support, what does that do to the space he leaves?

The wide playmaker is a playmaker. Even on support, he's only going to continue so much. Same with the opposite winger, who has an attacking focus. He will help defensively but its not really what you are asking him to do.

If you have too much space, the Narrower TI can help that. You can't expect players to tuck in and play compact if you aren't telling them do that.

This is where watching the matches, stopping, and really analyzing comes in really helpfully. If players are making poor decisions, stopping to look what their other options were can be very revealing.

It could also come down to players. You haven't mentioned the club or what level you are at. That might explain overly passive or ineffectually pressing midfielders. Pressing doesn't require top quality players, but if they are not aggressive and have no work-rate, they aren't going to apply it effectively.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 4-4-2. Every formation has its strengths and weaknesses. There also isn't anything totally out of kilter with your shape and mentality, roles and duties, etc. But something isn't balanced. The shape and mentality basically shape the tactic - how you play. Staying in the middle isn't really wrong, but you aren't really giving a particularly approach off the top.

As for passing options:



My centerback has the ball and is being pushed. No pass options. Everything would change if Gustavo Scarpa, my wide playmaker, moved to the center. In that case not only would be a viable option to pass, but would allow my left fullback to go forward.
What happens is that nobody moves, everybody is still and so it is impossible to circulate the ball.
At the end Centerback has to hoof the ball.




It's even worse here. It's all wrong.
Scarpa is too wide, it is not possible to pass the ball, he is too far.
It is simply impossible to maintain possession if no one moves with a minimum of intelligence following my instructions.

I have No special interest in keeping possession with high percentages, just what I want is to ensure proper use of the ball. It is not my intention to have 65% of possession, but to have less than 40%, to lose it so easily and to use the ball with so little intelligence is certainly a problem.

Using the TI Play narrower:



Now everyone is narrower but Scarpa is still too wide and my left fullback still too deep.
In short, the problem is that my wide playmaker is too wide.

As for the attacking fullback, I am aware that it is a risk but I can also take advantage of it. I accept the risk unless it is completely excessive because the opponent plays very attacking. Under normal circumstances I accept it
If I change the role to support, nothing improves on the defensive aspect because, as I said, it is not so much a problem of transition attack-defense, but once we are already established.
The change produces devastating effects in attack, because my fullback becomes very passive and almost never makes forward runs overlapping my wide playmaker

About the level I am at. The same thing happens to me with any team. From top clubs like ManU, Atletico de Madrid or Napoli, to relegation candidates.
I see more or less the same problems. Obviously, my results are better with better teams, because the quality of my players can overcome the problems I indicate, but I do not get my players do what I want to do in any case.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Thank you for the screencaps. It tickles me to no end to see someone taking the time to analyze like this. And in 2D

In the first image, what I'm seeing is your opposition doing a great job of pressing and cutting off options. Not every opponent will be doing that or capable of doing that. But its not as if everyone is marked comletely. #7 (the deeper MC) would be a passing option if he would a yard to left. Pass Into Space can be effective against that kind of press - it forces your players to move, creating a bit more space and allowing you to pass around the press. Dropping the leftback to support might also help as he would be 2-3 years deeper, becoming a passing option (but it would impact other aspects). A pass to him, the winger moves to close down, a pass to Scarpa, the defending rightback the has to make a choice and you've potentially created space to work into.

The Wide Playmaker isn't going to come inside by default. Its not in the role. I can't recall off hand what the roaming settings are for a WP, but I don't think they roam significantly. Playing Narrower helps a bit with their positioning, but you could also look to see what Personal Instructions are available. Even if you set him to Roam more, you can't be certain he roams centrally into the space the deeper MC has vacated, which is where he could be most effective. Even a player with REALLY high Off the Ball might not make that specific decision every time. In this specific situation, a 4-1-4-1 might work better because those two forwards aren't helping a lot because they simply aren't options in passing (besides a hoof, which we don't want), where as another central mid could solve some of the passing option problem. But with this formation.... you might want to look into other roles for Scarpa. But every player will interpret the given role n duty based on their own skills an tendencies (PPMs). Have you tried other players in that spot?

You could try switch the FB to a wingback.... they would be a bit more attacking, a bit higher. Or even an outright Complete Wingback, though that scarifies a lot defensively.

Passing into Space can also be effective against a higher defensive line - look for those thru balls that can destroy high defenders. Do you find that other teams are pressing up as high against you as RM are here?

 

[cocogas]

Thank you for the screencaps. It tickles me to no end to see someone taking the time to analyze like this. And in 2D

In the first image, what I'm seeing is your opposition doing a great job of pressing and cutting off options. Not every opponent will be doing that or capable of doing that. But its not as if everyone is marked comletely. #7 (the deeper MC) would be a passing option if he would a yard to left. Pass Into Space can be effective against that kind of press - it forces your players to move, creating a bit more space and allowing you to pass around the press. Dropping the leftback to support might also help as he would be 2-3 years deeper, becoming a passing option (but it would impact other aspects). A pass to him, the winger moves to close down, a pass to Scarpa, the defending rightback the has to make a choice and you've potentially created space to work into.

The Wide Playmaker isn't going to come inside by default. Its not in the role. I can't recall off hand what the roaming settings are for a WP, but I don't think they roam significantly. Playing Narrower helps a bit with their positioning, but you could also look to see what Personal Instructions are available. Even if you set him to Roam more, you can't be certain he roams centrally into the space the deeper MC has vacated, which is where he could be most effective. Even a player with REALLY high Off the Ball might not make that specific decision every time. In this specific situation, a 4-1-4-1 might work better because those two forwards aren't helping a lot because they simply aren't options in passing (besides a hoof, which we don't want), where as another central mid could solve some of the passing option problem. But with this formation.... you might want to look into other roles for Scarpa. But every player will interpret the given role n duty based on their own skills an tendencies (PPMs). Have you tried other players in that spot?

You could try switch the FB to a wingback.... they would be a bit more attacking, a bit higher. Or even an outright Complete Wingback, though that scarifies a lot defensively.

Passing into Space can also be effective against a higher defensive line - look for those thru balls that can destroy high defenders. Do you find that other teams are pressing up as high against you as RM are here?

In addition to seeing what is wrong it is also important to detect what we are doing well.
For example, sometimes Scarpa moves to the center creating space for the fullback:





On the other hand, here my centerback hoofs the ball. To correct it, I used TI Play out def. It seems to be spot on.






The problem is that in these matches we are still in good vibes, my players somehow act with some rationality following my instructions. The real problem comes when I am unable to give the slightest tactical instruction and the mistakes of my players accumulate one after another.

When this happens my results become catastrophic and I feel powerless to do something to change it​

I even won the match against Real Madrid which is truly remarkable in response to the quality of the players of one and the other team, so what I'm going to do is continue playing until I feel that my players completely ignore my instructions and my results sink. Then I'll post my analysis to see if we can turn the situation around.

 

[cocogas]

https://ibb.co/nuCF9G

Last minutes of the game, the opponent changes to an extremely attacking formation, suicidal I would say. It is frankly difficult to defend this training with a 442, so what I do is change to 4141 with both fullbacks on defend and a defensive midfielder also on defend.
The screenshot shows everything. My two fullbacks are too high and even though this play ended in goal, I can't be happy because my players are not doing what I want them to do. I want you both fullabacks, the two centerbacks and the defensive midfielder stay back all times but what I see is that they are located in the last third of the field, leaving huge spaces behind. We were lucky the play ended well but we took a risk that I was just trying to avoid.
What could I do in this situation? Changing mentality might be too extreme because it changes a whole lot of instructions that I'm satisfied with. We are defending well, neither very Deep nor very high and if change mentality also changed that, probably worse. I could change shape to highly structured:

https://ibb.co/mPJK3b

The same. What else could I do?


As for the lack of press:
https://ibb.co/iUunpG


Certainly, I'm facing a terribly defensive team.
I'm worried about 3 things:
1. Do not leave too much space behind that they can take advantage. With Standard-Flexible my defensive line is not particularly high, so I do not anticipate that this is going to be a problem.
2. Play smartly to generate space and create chances. More on this later.
3. Do not leave them too much possession. This is really a problem. We must recover fast possession to try one attack after another. I don't want them to have pressure release times, it has to be something constant. Against such a defensive team you have to attack again and again until you get down the defensive wall.
Leaving them so much space and time will be impossible to recover the ball fast. My players have to press higher up so I decide to raise my defensive line. This is the result:

https://ibb.co/mWL7Ob

The same.
I push my defensive line even higher. With such a high defensive line space behind might be a problem so I use offside trap. This is the result:


https://ibb.co/kvu1ib

The same.
What could I do now? Change a role? A ballwinning midfielder is a possibility because it presses like headless chicken all over the field but I think the space between where my midfielders and where they should be can not be corrected by the greater field of action of the ballwinning midfielder .
Close down more it would be another possibility but I don't want to use it because it could result in my players ending up out of position too often.
What would you do in this situation? Would you take more risks by pushing more? I really don't know what to do in this case. If I don't get the ball, I can't attack.

Finally, in relation to attacking with intelligence...
https://ibb.co/iowxOb


We're compressing space in the last third of the field. Yes, we have a certain amplitude but we can't penetrate his defense and everything is in long shots. I have serious difficulties attacking defensive teams and I'm really a little lost. What would you do in this situation?

 

[cocogas]

This match is interesting:

It's a typical attack. Llorente tries a long pass towards the right, which the majority of times is intercepted or erroneous.​

Although the pressure of the opposite is not very intense, we have really notable problems to get out of our own field.



Another typical attack.

The space is on the sides but my players insist on playing in the middle.​

Instead of passing the ball backwards my players insist on running forward where all the opposites are.

In short, the problems are:
-We are not taking advantage of the spaces that the opposite leaves on the sides.
-My front players are isolated.
-Lack of pressure does not allow us to recover the ball.

I'm not sure my analysis is the right one...
What I did is
Change my AF to DF in support, my winger to wide midfielder in support and both fullbacks to wingback in attack.
I was hoping that my fronts would not be isolated, my wingbacks remain open to exploit space on the flanks.
To press more, I moved my line defensive a little.
Of the result of all this I'm not sure. I managed to score two goals and win the match but it was more isolated and fortunate actions than the result of smart game patterns.
Really, I have notable difficulties to read what happens in the final third and how to build and generate chances.
I'm not sure what I do or the results it produces. I have the feeling of not having control of what happens in the field, I do not know how to transmit what I want my players to do.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Apologies for a delay in replying. Busy weekend.

Regarding being proactive trying to win the ball, using the Closing Down Team Instruction is likely your best bet. It can impact team shape, but its how you ask your players to be more aggressive and reactive. That should help with the passivity. You could also use Individual Instructions to do it, but I find the TI maintains the team shape better. And I usually add PIs to the central defenders to get them to Close Down much less, which prevents some defensive problems when pressing. I guess you could also just look for roles that are more aggressive in ball winning across the pitch but I have my doubts whether that would be as effective.

The two primary ways to focus on defending is a high block (pressing) or a low block (back in numbers, narrow, etc). Pressing is still a bit rudimentary in the FM match engine - you can't specify to press in certain areas, or in certain way only, or at certain points in a match. But it can be pretty effective regardless. My standard go-to tactic for a couple of versions has been a Very Fluid high press that tends to work pretty, with the formation being a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-2-3-1 deep deep. You need pretty good players, but I've had success even with below average (for the level) players.

Now with regard to breaking down a stubborn, deep defending side.... my go-to approach is a bit counter-intuitive. I pull back. You need to create movement and space, and pushing up really high tends to leave less space for your team to work with. So I will drop the defensive line, and often drop the mentality a level or two. The team is a bit more conservative, a bit more patient. I try to make sure I have roles that provide movement. I will typically try to use a deeper pivot - for example, my typical 4-1-4-1 might use a DLP in the MC role and a DM or Anchor Man at DM, but I'll switch up the MC role to something that provides more running and switch the DM to DLP. Pulling back and look to create a bit deeper, in the space they are giving away. This is a bit different with a 4-4-2, but can still work

I honestly find I tweak roles and duties quite a bit. I've typically found Complete Forward to be my best bet, with DLF and DF working depending on the intent. I don't use two strikers up top very often but when using a 4-2-2-2 box formation on FM17, I found I constantly adjusted the striker roles.

One of the bigger suggestions I could make... play with Team Shape. You are correct in what you said that it does adjust other things. But I think you might find a bit more of the movement you want by going to Fluid or Very Fluid. You give the whole side a bit more creative freedom in how they interpret their roles. They contribute a bit more to all phases. Conversely, you could try to go more structured, where they will stick more explicitly to the role and duty they are given. Toy around with that I think you might find a "happy place" away from Flexible.

 

[cocogas]

I've been pretty successful in the last few days. I have simplified as I approach the parties to solve the problems that arise.
The aforementioned problems are mainly:
-Width
-No pressure
In relation to the width and the described problem of the wide playmaker too wide, I simply use the IT play narrower or much narrower. Most pass options problems are resolved
As far as pressure is concerned, it's a matter of moving the defensive line up and down depending on whether I want my players to press more or less. To do this, I notice if my players are too passive or otherwise push too high and do not have time to react.
Depending on it, it's a matter of adjusting.
If my defensive line is very high but the pressure is correct use offside trap.
I rarely change anything else. Maybe the mentality if my defensive line is too deep and advancing my players is not enough.
Really my results are fantastic. I took the mid table team and in my second season we are in champions League competing dignifiedly against big sides like Bayern or City.
I thank you very much for the attention and interest shown. The question of the width was fundamental to solve my problems of circulation of the ball. It was totally Eureka.
Thanks a lot!

 

[Bigpapa42]

No, thank you. This thread should be a prototype for how to ask for help with a tactic. You were detailed, provided analysis, and identified specific problems. Those are things that are too commonly not done.

And your solutions show another really important point - it wasn't a single tweak that solves a problem permanently. Its something you have to watch for and adjust, at least in regard to the defensive line. The idea of creating a tactic and never adjusting anything isn't as workable as it once was.

 

[PatrickLFC]

This match is interesting:

It's a typical attack. Llorente tries a long pass towards the right, which the majority of times is intercepted or erroneous.​

Really interesting thread, good work both of you Cocogas and Bigpapa42!

It occurred to me when looking at the first screenshot in post #11 (quoted above) that if your right fullback was played an an Inverted Wingback rather than a traditional fullback he could be used to link the midfield to your right winger who is very wide, and potentially provide another outlet for your centre backs to break the first line of the press. He still acts like a traditional fullback in defence to my knowledge.

Sounds like things are working for you at the moment but it could be worth experimenting with if you come across more problems

 

[cocogas]

I'm struggling again.

My problem now is that I find it completely impossible to defend.
Against aggressively attacking teams I can't do anything to stop them. I even use a more defensive tactic 4141, try to play safe, maintain possession and if anything a counterattack taking advantage of its overaggressive strategy, but nothing works
It is impossible for Me to retain possession and the opposite creates a great number of occasions. I can't get out of my mid-field: If I play short passes they push me and we lose it. If you play long passes, they are direct passes on the contrary.
I don't know what post analysis is because I don't know what's going wrong. It's all a complete mess, my players are late to everything or not facing the opponent. Then with the ball they are unable to make a rational decision and they do everything absolutely backwards from what I want.
Not that I see a problem to correct, is that everything is wrong. Nothing works the way it should.
How could I clarify my ideas?

 

[cocogas]

Please, somebody help me

 

[cocogas]

Please, I can't win a single match. Someone help me, please.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Was morale really poor when it started? Seems odd for players to suddenly be unable to defend. Something has to shift for that to happen.

When you are being pressed hard and effectively, there are a few things you can try. More direct passing can work sometimes, as the pressing typically breaks up their defensive shape and if you have a quick tempo with longer passing, getting the ball forward can sometimes open them up. Another option, the other I usually try, is pass into space. Makes your players move more, passing around the press - in theory.

 

[cocogas]

Was morale really poor when it started? Seems odd for players to suddenly be unable to defend. Something has to shift for that to happen.

When you are being pressed hard and effectively, there are a few things you can try. More direct passing can work sometimes, as the pressing typically breaks up their defensive shape and if you have a quick tempo with longer passing, getting the ball forward can sometimes open them up. Another option, the other I usually try, is pass into space. Makes your players move more, passing around the press - in theory.

Morale was excellent.

I've been sacked.

Would you mind to watch a pkm?​

I honestly can't tell what is wrong because everything is wrong to my eyes. I'm starting to think the problem are my players. They want me to be sacked for some reason and play very bad on purpose.

Otherwise, I'll try again on my own... And the same will happen.