rfcaldeiral

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Hello Managers,

I Need help with something: Defensive Covering. I'm interested in making a tactic in wich the players cover for the others. I'm gonna give you an example. If the Left Back starts pressing a player in the wing I need my left Winger to cover for him. If my right central midfielder starts pressing I need my left central midfielder to cover is position.

I'm not quite sure about the instructions. If I play fluid or not ? And what about Stick to positions ?

If you have more information and advices I would appreciate it,

Thank You
 
Hello Managers,

I Need help with something: Defensive Covering. I'm interested in making a tactic in wich the players cover for the others. I'm gonna give you an example. If the Left Back starts pressing a player in the wing I need my left Winger to cover for him. If my right central midfielder starts pressing I need my left central midfielder to cover is position.

I'm not quite sure about the instructions. If I play fluid or not ? And what about Stick to positions ?

If you have more information and advices I would appreciate it,

Thank You


What you're describing is the more defensive aspect of "breaking the lines", a concept that has selected deeper lying players pushing forward and some of the more advanced players operating in defensive or supporting roles to allow for the overlap, holding the ball up, covering teammates, etc. Works particularly well if you have players detailed to play one-twos and cross field passes out to the flanks. The Complete Forward_Support works well because he can run at the opposition to create chances for himself, or he can hold the ball up like a Target Man to lay it off into the channels for 3rd man runners.

Different players will cover individual teammates according to the situation on the field at the time, but in my 4-3-3 formation shown in the screenshot, it's common for the left back to overlap the left winger - so if the move breaks down, the winger may be the first to chase back but the DLP and the DM will also shuffle over (if they're close enough to do so) or the Centre Back_Stopper will go and engage the attacker, if need be. The right back will only overlap during second wave attacks when we have the opposition pegged back. If that then gets cleared down the wing, the DLP, the DM and the Centre Back_Cover are all able to get across.

You can see how the central midfield three are staggered - if I had an Advanced Playmaker_Attack in my squad then I would probably prefer to have him there, but my current player is only suitable for the Support role. The DM's primary objective is to win the ball and pass it short to one of the other two central midfielders. The DLP will spread the ball wide or into the channels and then stay where he is in case the ball gets partially cleared; the AP will play similar types of passes but then look to get forward to get involved again.

Recommended Team Instructions are shown in the first screenshot.
 
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First of all thank you for your time.

What you are describing is a particular situation when a deep player goes forward. That is not my problem(although at the end it's the same thing) because if something happen in that case, the nearest player will press. My big problem it's when you are in a Defensive situation.

I play a 4-4-2 so I don't have a defensive midfielder otherwise the problem wouldn't even exist because I would make my DM play like Kanté or Casemiro. DM's are there to cover the other 2 central midfields.

My probem was resumed to 3 instructions: "Be more disciplined", "Team Shape" and Stick to Positions. Why ? I'm gonna tell you what I was thinking:

If I play fluid Structured FM says players will be in a more rigid state that means players will not leave their positions but to cover for a player who kindda need to go occupy the other player who was dribbled or was going pressing. Or maybe not because I just need my player to be in is own position but be aware if his teammate gets beaten."

As you can see it's a bit confusing for me. And the other instruction is " Be more Disciplined" and " Stick To Positions"...

I will post my tactic so you can evaluate. Thank You again.

I have to say I sometimes modified the tactic. I think Initially I was playing fluid and deselected " Be more Disciplined" and "Stick to Positions" etc etc etc....

View attachment 126696 View attachment 126695
 
First of all thank you for your time.

What you are describing is a particular situation when a deep player goes forward. That is not my problem(although at the end it's the same thing) because if something happen in that case, the nearest player will press. My big problem it's when you are in a Defensive situation.

I play a 4-4-2 so I don't have a defensive midfielder otherwise the problem wouldn't even exist because I would make my DM play like Kanté or Casemiro. DM's are there to cover the other 2 central midfields.

My probem was resumed to 3 instructions: "Be more disciplined", "Team Shape" and Stick to Positions. Why ? I'm gonna tell you what I was thinking:

If I play fluid Structured FM says players will be in a more rigid state that means players will not leave their positions but to cover for a player who kindda need to go occupy the other player who was dribbled or was going pressing. Or maybe not because I just need my player to be in is own position but be aware if his teammate gets beaten."

As you can see it's a bit confusing for me. And the other instruction is " Be more Disciplined" and " Stick To Positions"...

I will post my tactic so you can evaluate. Thank You again.

I have to say I sometimes modified the tactic. I think Initially I was playing fluid and deselected " Be more Disciplined" and "Stick to Positions" etc etc etc....

View attachment 1079237 View attachment 1079238

Well, this is new information! Your formation and tactical choices raise a few questions - enough that I know what I would be looking out for when I watch the matches in the Comprehensive View. But without seeing your team play, I don't know what they are doing well and what needs to be tweaked.

I'm sceptical about having both left sided players on attack duty. Does the winger need the wing back during the first wave counter attack? If the winger gets the job done on his own, then your WB is out of position for no reason. The Support duty will encourage the WB to provide additional width once you have other team pegged back into their own half.

I'm also not sure about having two Central Midfielders_Automatic. Do they tend to occupy the same space as one another or do they adjust their positions allowing for one another's presence? If they were, for example, a Ball Winning Midfielder_Defend and a Deep Lying Playmaker_Support, they would provide a bit of balance to your midfield, with clearly designated roles of their own in which it's easy for you to judge their performances.

If you want defensive covering, then I'd put one of the Centre Backs on the Cover duty. I like to have one of them operating as a Stopper, too, stepping out of the defensive line to engage the opposition.

"Be More Disciplined", "Stick to Positions", "Flexible" team shape; the flexible option seems contradictory with those other two instructions, but you'd have to watch the team closely and experiment by tweaking those instructions to see which combination gives you what you want. I'd be inclined to switch off the "Stick to Positions" option but keep the other two, with the "Look For Overlap" option also activated - but you might find yourself in a trial and error situation there.
 
Thank you for your advice I will watch my games in "comprehensive view".

Indeed Initially I dindn't have both on Attack duty, the wing back was in support duty. I did put one in Attack partially because Filipe Luis is more attacking minded than Juanfran but that is in reallity, In the game I decided to put him in Attack because sometimes my team lack attacking strength when we are in possession.

Regarding the Central midfielders , the one in the left as the instruction to "hold Position" so He can protect the Left back if he goes forward and the other CM as "Gets further forward" although I still had both instructions when Wing Back Left was on support. The problem here is that I already tested other roles and I didn't liek it. For example the BWM(D) will get out of position to much to do the pressing.

About the instructions, I think what you are advising me it's what I had initially so I agree with you.
What about "Look for overlap" ? Won't they stop a counter to do an overlap ?

Thank You
 
Thank you for your advice I will watch my games in "comprehensive view".

Indeed Initially I dindn't have both on Attack duty, the wing back was in support duty. I did put one in Attack partially because Filipe Luis is more attacking minded than Juanfran but that is in reallity, In the game I decided to put him in Attack because sometimes my team lack attacking strength when we are in possession.

Regarding the Central midfielders , the one in the left as the instruction to "hold Position" so He can protect the Left back if he goes forward and the other CM as "Gets further forward" although I still had both instructions when Wing Back Left was on support. The problem here is that I already tested other roles and I didn't liek it. For example the BWM(D) will get out of position to much to do the pressing.

About the instructions, I think what you are advising me it's what I had initially so I agree with you.
What about "Look for overlap" ? Won't they stop a counter to do an overlap ?

Thank You

Does the wing back actually get forward and offer anything to the attack, though? If you're playing on the counter attack and your winger is already attacking, at what point does your wing back catch up to contribute anything worthwhile? If he's only getting involved once the first attack has stalled, then he can be in support mode in my opinion. Worth watching during matches; is the wing back actually getting forward and then standing still?

Ball Winning Midfielder_Support will make him operate slightly higher up the pitch but the BWM stays pretty central. If you're happier with your Central Midfielders then stick with them, but what are they not doing that prompted you to begin this thread?

Your players won't hold up a counter attack to wait for the overlapping player. If the counter is on, they'll go for it if enough players are in attacking positions but during less direct attacks, which come from sustained periods of possession, the wing backs will push on to provide the wide option and your other players will look to use them. If you have central midfielders with the Likes To Switch The Ball To Opposite Flank PPM and who are good at direct passes, then so much the better - they'll exploit those opportunities quicker and more accurately. I always have an attacking left full back with the winger ahead of him on support duty, with the right back on support behind an attacking right winger. My theory regarding first wave and second wave attacks is born out of watching them play. It also provides a staggered line of attack where the counter is being developed on the left wing while the right winger gets forward to provide a focal point for the attack - he's where they're trying to get the ball to. Then he can either score or cross to the centre for the striker. Of course, I get a lot of corners that way, too, and plenty of offside calls!
 
I will take time to look at what you said about the wing back going forward or not during counters.

I don't like the BWM because they press to much so they get out of position. I started the thread because I wanted to improve my tactic.

Thank you for your help
 
First of all thank you for your time.

What you are describing is a particular situation when a deep player goes forward. That is not my problem(although at the end it's the same thing) because if something happen in that case, the nearest player will press. My big problem it's when you are in a Defensive situation.

I play a 4-4-2 so I don't have a defensive midfielder otherwise the problem wouldn't even exist because I would make my DM play like Kanté or Casemiro. DM's are there to cover the other 2 central midfields.

My probem was resumed to 3 instructions: "Be more disciplined", "Team Shape" and Stick to Positions. Why ? I'm gonna tell you what I was thinking:

If I play fluid Structured FM says players will be in a more rigid state that means players will not leave their positions but to cover for a player who kindda need to go occupy the other player who was dribbled or was going pressing. Or maybe not because I just need my player to be in is own position but be aware if his teammate gets beaten."

As you can see it's a bit confusing for me. And the other instruction is " Be more Disciplined" and " Stick To Positions"...

I will post my tactic so you can evaluate. Thank You again.

I have to say I sometimes modified the tactic. I think Initially I was playing fluid and deselected " Be more Disciplined" and "Stick to Positions" etc etc etc....

View attachment 1079237 View attachment 1079238

So just to follow, you want your players to be zonal on defense. FB goes to press opposing winger, someone drops back into the FB's zone and the rest of the team shifts to cover and balance the FB pushing up on his player. So you want to use your team's formation and discipline to break up attacks and force back passes.

The Mentality and Shape are fine, though preference would lean me towards Very Fluid, but any can work it just changes how you would pick your roles. The more fluid you are, the lesser the vertical distance between your outfield players, the more phases they contribute to (partly because they're closer together), the more freedom you give them, and the likelihood of the players making up for your tactical flaws with their know-how. Vice versa the more structured you become. (Take that last bit about making up for your tactical flaws with a pinch of salt, because if your players aren't tactically intelligent they'll do some bat-**** crazy things on Very Fluid).

With your defensive scheme in mind, you need to be able to delay the attack so players can drop into spaces vacated by their teammates, have roles that will balance each other, and keeping the middle secure.

Starting from TIs, the only thing I'd consider adding is the Stay on Feet instruction. It moves your team to a more Zonal setup as well as making the first defender (the one who closes down the man on the ball) to be more concerned about delaying than winning the ball with the tackle. That's not to say that he won't tackle, but he'll be more concerned about preserving shape. Width is interesting, while yes you want to prevent the easy ball through the middle, you will need to monitor how wide the opponents are and either adjust your width or some player roles to balance out the defence if you keep getting stretched. Closing Down is also another area you could adjust as the game goes on, it would speed up how quickly a player makes the decision to delay the player on the ball, but if you lack Teamwork, Positioning, and Work Rate in your players, it may just end up breaking up your shape. Your tempo seems unnecessarily high. Yes your mentality is counter, but your setup is how the team plays when they are not on the counter. So you have a bunch of players running forward and playing the ball really quickly. That goes against the defensive scheme that you want and opening yourself up to an opposition counter. I'd say lower your passing directness and tempo each by one slot. That way you can get proper support up to your Poacher without overextending yourself. You may not even have to lower passing directness as your horizontal width means your players will be relatively close and will still play shorter passes. Look For Overlap is an odd one, why do you have it?

As for roles, the lower the mentality of the role, the more willing they will be to drop back and cover. Your fullbacks should be on FB and not WB since you already have a player in front of them. This makes them still support and go forward but be more mindful of their defensive responsibilities as they have another player to attack on that side. The FB(a) and FB(s) role also gives your more control over PIs so you can fine tune them to how the match is going. For your WM(a)'s do you have any PIs on them? And lastly, for your centremids, you should consider making the one you have hold position just be a proper CM(d) as not only will he hold position but having a lower mentality will cause him to look to drop into the back line if someone moves out to pressure.

Thoughts?
 
CaptiveBrigdge did you read my conversation with rocheyb? If you didn't please do.

I don't want my FB to push higher to press. First of all I want my FB to press in his zone ONLY. His Zone is big, so if he goes pressing near the corner( suppose) there will be a gap between in and the near central defender. Who's gonna cover ? If the central defender covers it then we will be in troubler because there will be a gap between both central defenders and so on. So my first problem is to shift all the players to that side. Even if they shift there will always be a gap between the FB and the central defender. The problem is now: "What if he gets beaten ?" The answer is : "You are dead". To solve this situation I need my Wing back to cover( place himself between the FB and the CD)".

My problem with Fluid and Very fluid is that players are given to much freedom but okay...

About the passing I have PPM's . Wide players, AMC and Striker all have short passing. About the tempo I disagree with you. If I don't have a fast tempo the opposite team will have time to reorganize. It's true that short passing and fast tempo usually don't go together, but if you watch Arsenal, Atletico de Madrid I think they play short passing fast tempo...

I'm not quite sure about the difference between FB and WB. I have the idea that Wing back overlaps more than Fullbacks and that's what I need. I need my players to play like Dani alves, Jordi Alba, Filipe Luis, Juanfran.

MY WM(A)'s have the following PI's: Stay Narrow( To protect the centre), short passing( for short fast combinations in the wings), Cross More.

Central Midfielder left have: "Hold Position", Central midfielder right have: "Get further Forward".

Same Problem as with the BWM(D), CM(D) gets too much out of position.

The Screens you saw it's a modified version of my initial tactic, I lost track of it so I don't remember what I had before. One thing is for sure. I scored less goals before and had less possession. I won the Liga BBVA and my team had the lesser possession.
 
CaptiveBrigdge did you read my conversation with rocheyb? If you didn't please do.

I don't want my FB to push higher to press. First of all I want my FB to press in his zone ONLY. His Zone is big, so if he goes pressing near the corner( suppose) there will be a gap between in and the near central defender. Who's gonna cover ? If the central defender covers it then we will be in troubler because there will be a gap between both central defenders and so on. So my first problem is to shift all the players to that side. Even if they shift there will always be a gap between the FB and the central defender. The problem is now: "What if he gets beaten ?" The answer is : "You are dead". To solve this situation I need my Wing back to cover( place himself between the FB and the CD)".

Yes, which we both agree on. However having your WM on attack is not going to cause him to drop into that gap. The only players in your setup that we can modify without altering too much of your tactic is your CM. Having him go to a CM(d) or even a DLP(d) will have him more likely to drop into the gap in the back line. Your WM(a) will never drop into the gap as you have told him that his duty is to be more involved in the attack and the transition to the attack.

My problem with Fluid and Very fluid is that players are given to much freedom but okay...

Like I said, any Shape can work, you just have to change the player roles and duties accordingly.

About the passing I have PPM's . Wide players, AMC and Striker all have short passing. About the tempo I disagree with you. If I don't have a fast tempo the opposite team will have time to reorganize. It's true that short passing and fast tempo usually don't go together, but if you watch Arsenal, Atletico de Madrid I think they play short passing fast tempo...

Fair, it is your tactic. I'd say the issue with tempo has more to do with the your Poacher and the disconnect between him and the rest of the team, but if it's getting you the results - sure.

I'm not quite sure about the difference between FB and WB. I have the idea that Wing back overlaps more than Fullbacks and that's what I need. I need my players to play like Dani alves, Jordi Alba, Filipe Luis, Juanfran.

MY WM(A)'s have the following PI's: Stay Narrow( To protect the centre), short passing( for short fast combinations in the wings), Cross More.

Both an FB and WB will get forward with attack duties. The difference between the two come down to what they do on the ball. They both will look to overlap, it's just that the WB will try to be a winger: pushing for the touch line more often but not being as disciplined in positioning. A WB is better suited to a system where he's the only wide man. However if you really want to stick with him, you can tell your WM on the left to cut in with the ball, so both your wide players aren't attempting to go for the same space. However, that still leaves you terribly exposed on that side giving you more of a Glen Johnson than an Alves.

Central Midfielder left have: "Hold Position", Central midfielder right have: "Get further Forward".

Same Problem as with the BWM(D), CM(D) gets too much out of position.

The Screens you saw it's a modified version of my initial tactic, I lost track of it so I don't remember what I had before. One thing is for sure. I scored less goals before and had less possession. I won the Liga BBVA and my team had the lesser possession.

I can't see how the CM(d) would go chasing the ball down as much as the BWM(d). What is the agression stat of the player who normally plays that role? Have you tried adjusting that player's closing down PI when he was played as a CM(d)?
 
CaptiveBridge thank you for your help,

It's true WM( a) is a problem but I already tested the other options and none gave me positive results BUT what is your sugestion ?

I will test your sugestion regarding replacing the WM( a) and with FB. I will change WB to FB. So I will be waiting for your sugestion.

I do think if I am not mistaken that the CM(D) already has Close down More that's why I don't like him...
 
CaptiveBridge thank you for your help,

It's true WM( a) is a problem but I already tested the other options and none gave me positive results BUT what is your sugestion ?

I will test your sugestion regarding replacing the WM( a) and with FB. I will change WB to FB. So I will be waiting for your sugestion.

I do think if I am not mistaken that the CM(D) already has Close down More that's why I don't like him...

Sorry for the late response, hurricane and travelling don't mix.

Anyhoo, WM(a) could be switched to a WP(a) or a WM(s) with the instruction to Cut In and SIt Narrower. He'll more likely drop to cover the FB on his side and give the FB more room to work forward into. Playmaker roles are more akin to support roles regardless of the duty you give them.

Yes, The CM(d) has Close Down More, but he doesn't chase the ball like the BWM. It just means that when the ball enters his zone, he's going to get to it quicker, but because he's on defence his zone will be smaller. Combined with a WP and CM(s) on either side of him, even if he does feel the need to chase an attacker the other two players will balance out his movement and help with your shape.
 
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