Formations: How different is different enough?

[Akuthia]

First, sorry for blasting new posts all day, trying to get a better understanding. Elsewhere, I've seen it suggested that in order to keep teams guessing as to what you'll play, you should have different formations you can go to to start a game with. What I'm wondering is how different is different enough?

As of right now i've got three variations of 4-4-2, one that's attack oriented, with both strikers to either side of the top of the box (next to the half circle, P.S. if anyone can tell me WHY that's there, i'd love to know, despite watching games fairly often, i've never seen anything special about it, its not in the PK area, so...) and an AM in front of 3 evenly spaced midfielders.

The second one is a more balanced 4-4-2, which is the default diamond shape. Nothing special about it.

Finally, i've got a more defensive minded set. Although I just noticed my wingers were set to "midfield wingers" and not DW, so changed that.

So, is changing the shape "enough" to keep opposing managers on guard? I'm starting to notice that the scouting reports i'm getting aren't accurate, as i'm fielding 4-2-2's and expecting 4-2-2, but the last match, for example, i got a 4-3-3, which looks more like a 4-5-1.

 

[miitchh]

Look at how Barcelona has been playing for the last few years. Look at how Bayern has been playing the last few years. Look at how Dortmund has been playing the last few years.You need to perfect a system that works correctly with the players you have and you keep using it and demolish everything that stands in your way. I RARELY change the formation at all, only against much stronger teams (i improvise) and sometimes just for fun.

 

[johnstrac]

The semi circle is to ensure players are 10 yards away from a penalty kick.

 

[Akuthia]

Look at how Barcelona has been playing for the last few years. Look at how Bayern has been playing the last few years. Look at how Dortmund has been playing the last few years.You need to perfect a system that works correctly with the players you have and you keep using it and demolish everything that stands in your way. I RARELY change the formation at all, only against much stronger teams (i improvise) and sometimes just for fun.

So it sounds like you're saying changing shape alone, as opposed to actual position types should be enough then? It just seems like i'm struggling again 4-3-3's, and they're being adopted every game now it seems.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

The news item about the manager being a tinkerman, keeping the opponents guessing are just cosmetic as they will appear after you have won a game after having changed the formation.

Now, if wanting to change the shape and style Of play, then it should be down because Of you having s specific reason for it.

 

[miitchh]

So it sounds like you're saying changing shape alone, as opposed to actual position types should be enough then? It just seems like i'm struggling again 4-3-3's, and they're being adopted every game now it seems.

I only change player roles and the mentality if needed.

 

[MANUMAD]

The news item about the manager being a tinkerman, keeping the opponents guessing are just cosmetic as they will appear after you have won a game after having changed the formation.

I get that a lot and weirdly it makes me feel nice.

As I say in MANUMAD's box of sweets you should have 3 different sets of formations (the underlying tactics can be same/similar): one "wide", one "narrow" one other. eg I usually have a 451 (which is my "wide" one), a 23212 (which is my narrow) and a third one I alternate depending on the save. If you scout teams you ll see from scout rep that they react differently to wider ones than narrow ones and vice versa.

By "wide" I mean wingers-based.

 

[Akuthia]

I gotta say, after advancing to the German 1st last night, I'm starting to believe that if you DO use the same general formation every game, the AI picks up on it. I had probably re-loaded my save at least 30 times, trying to beat Sandhusen, and every game would come out a draw, or a 1 goal defeat, using generally the same sort of tactics (my base has been a 4-4-2, the most i'd vary during this stretch of loads was maybe a 5-4-1, or a 4-5-1 (because i was being told i was being out numbered in mid) Finally, i say screw it, i'm going with something base that the ai has. Looking through the list of tactics, i try to find the one that makes me go "no way this will work", and i find it: 4-2-3-1 Asymmetrical. Don't change anything aside from my mentality to defensive:come out, win the game 4-1.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I gotta say, after advancing to the German 1st last night, I'm starting to believe that if you DO use the same general formation every game, the AI picks up on it. I had probably re-loaded my save at least 30 times, trying to beat Sandhusen, and every game would come out a draw, or a 1 goal defeat, using generally the same sort of tactics (my base has been a 4-4-2, the most i'd vary during this stretch of loads was maybe a 5-4-1, or a 4-5-1 (because i was being told i was being out numbered in mid) Finally, i say screw it, i'm going with something base that the ai has. Looking through the list of tactics, i try to find the one that makes me go "no way this will work", and i find it: 4-2-3-1 Asymmetrical. Don't change anything aside from my mentality to defensive:come out, win the game 4-1.

That was jus because that approach was a more suitable one for playing in that game, not because you puzzled them or anything like that.

SI has stated on many occasions that whilst they wish they could implement a AI that picks up on your play and really prepare for it, they AI cant do it

 

[Akuthia]

So is there a primer somewhere on what counters what as far as tactics are concerned?

 

[TheBetterHalf]

So is there a primer somewhere on what counters what as far as tactics are concerned?

Its basiclly down to this.

- Play to the stregnths of your players and make sure that your players are doing whatever they are doing better than what the opposition is doing whatever they are doing. That your team hinders the opponent from using their strengths at the sate as the approach allows you to use yours. Here, the key lies in not looking at the tactics as Tactic files but as general approaches. If you have a core approach, then its mosty down to dropping a little deeper, push up, or use the flanks more, flood the middle, get the tempo up or retain the possession. When to do what is something you need to watch the game to know.

 

[MANUMAD]

- Play to the stregnths of your players and make sure that your players are doing whatever they are doing better than what the opposition is doing whatever they are doing. That your team hinders the opponent from using their strengths at the sate as the approach allows you to use yours. Here, the key lies in not looking at the tactics as Tactic files but as general approaches. If you have a core approach, then its mosty down to dropping a little deeper, push up, or use the flanks more, flood the middle, get the tempo up or retain the possession. When to do what is something you need to watch the game to know.

I sligtly disagree. The core approach idea is fine as a tactical foundation. But you DO have to have three sufficiently different formations (which themselves may need further tweaking for particular matches). Otherwise what is the point of having the option of scouting opponents.

I would also stress:

1) Have pace. Utilise it.
2) Try to boss the mf. Often its a simple question of maths eg counter a 442 (2 cms) with a 451 (flat mid3 - 3cms).
3) Keep possession/disrupt flow of opponents possession. I often use a set of shouts with the idea of pressing the opponent's mfield.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I sligtly disagree. The core approach idea is fine as a tactical foundation. But you DO have to have three sufficiently different formations (which themselves may need further tweaking for particular matches). Otherwise what is the point of having the option of scouting opponents.

I would also stress:

1) Have pace. Utilise it.
2) Try to boss the mf. Often its a simple question of maths eg counter a 442 (2 cms) with a 451 (flat mid3 - 3cms).
3) Keep possession/disrupt flow of opponents possession. I often use a set of shouts with the idea of pressing the opponent's mfield.

Agree as this is what I meant with all the suggestions like Drop deeper, flood the midfield, use the flanks etc. They can be used both with shouts and with changes in formation