Getting Dimitri Payet to perform for WHU.

[maxchaplin55]

Dimitri Payet was undoubtedly West Ham United's player of the year in 15/16. Goals, assists, skills, the lot.

For me, he's only doing half the job. He's giving the ball away far too much, when there's an easy pass on.

In the league last season, he managed an 88.9% pass completion. Which is the kind of figure I am trying to get out of him. His stats lead me to believe he can implicate this on the game.

However, 14 league games in on my WHU save, he has a poor 71% pass completion. He also has 1 goal, 0 assists. I think it's fair to say I am going wrong somewhere with the management of Dimitri Payet, whether he just doesnt fit into my style of play, I am not sure, I'd like some pointers into how to get him playing closer to his potential.

Will insert screenshot of tactic and instructions below. But in brief, I play a 4-3-2-1. A short passing game which focuses on overlaps mainly from wide but also from my central midfielder through the middle.

View attachment 129890 View attachment 129889

As you can see I have Payet deployed as an IF s. When he receives the ball, no matter what phase of play, you'd think he'd have a clear pass on, and 99% of the time he does, but as you can tell by pass completion, he doesn't play the simple pass. He has LB overlapping him, he has LCM holding for him, CM making a run in the middle for him, even RCM offers support, and then ST drops deep for him too.

I am aware that the IF s has More Risky Passes by default, but as does AP s, and they are the only two roles I would have Payet playing.

If anyone could offer some advice or pointers, or maybe something I have blindly missed out, please let me know. (Or feel free to pick holes in my formation/instructions). Love a bit of constructive criticism. Ta!

 

[WJ]

Are you judging him purely on his assists/goals tally? It looks like he's going to sit very deep, as you instructed, and he also has to hold up the ball, so atm he's more of a 2nd assist guy.

 

[ippe]

I used similar tactics with Bournemouth and Matt Ritchie or should I say "poor man's Payet" was awesome.

Here is my formation with player roles:

View attachment 129862

As you can see I used Ritchie as Advanced Playmaker with Attacking duty. He's left footed player so he's got his stronger foot towards the pitch. He was absolutely crucial in my relatively poor Bournemouth side and managed to grab 6 goals and 15 assists in his first Premier League season and total 15+39 over three season as first choice option.

View attachment 129861

I can't remember the player instructions but they were pretty much default for AP ( A )role. Ritchie has preferred moves such as Cuts Inside From Both Wings, Shoot From Distance and Shoots With Power so he took a few shots even though it wasn't his main duty on my team.

I think you should chance Payet's role from Inside Forward (S) to Advanced Playmaker ( A ) and see how that goes. Exploit The Flanks instruction should help too!

 

[maxchaplin55]

Are you judging him purely on his assists/goals tally? It looks like he's going to sit very deep, as you instructed, and he also has to hold up the ball, so atm he's more of a 2nd assist guy.

Not at all, there have been a few times where he's pinged it to Cresswell on the overlap and got 2nd assists. It's honestly mainly his poor ball retention, time and time again he needlessly gives the ball away. I am cool with him getting 0 goals 0 assists all season if he has a high pass success and does his job in transitioning from midfield to attack.

 

[maxchaplin55]

I used similar tactics with Bournemouth and Matt Ritchie or should I say "poor man's Payet" was awesome.

Here is my formation with player roles:

View attachment 1075743

As you can see I used Ritchie as Advanced Playmaker with Attacking duty. He's left footed player so he's got his stronger foot towards the pitch. He was absolutely crucial in my relatively poor Bournemouth side and managed to grab 6 goals and 15 assists in his first Premier League season and total 15+39 over three season as first choice option.

View attachment 1075744

I can't remember the player instructions but they were pretty much default for AP ( A )role. Ritchie has preferred moves such as Cuts Inside From Both Wings, Shoot From Distance and Shoots With Power so he took a few shots even though it wasn't his main duty on my team.

I think you should chance Payet's role from Inside Forward (S) to Advanced Playmaker ( A ) and see how that goes. Exploit The Flanks instruction should help too!

I did start the season with him as APs, but since I now have Noble on left side as a DLP, and the fact I wanted him to have an eye for goal a bit more, I changed to IFs.

Ritchie is smashing it for you though! What's his pass completion stats like? What style of play do you ask? I am reluctant to change him to an attack duty, as Cresswell is on attack duty so that would leave me open on the left flank, I guess I could try using Cresswell as WBs but fear it may a few of his darting runs and assists from left wing. I may try and see how it goes, am sitting in 3rd at Christmas, but wonder what I could do if I could get Payet firing!

 

[rocheyb]

I did start the season with him as APs, but since I now have Noble on left side as a DLP, and the fact I wanted him to have an eye for goal a bit more, I changed to IFs.

Ritchie is smashing it for you though! What's his pass completion stats like? What style of play do you ask? I am reluctant to change him to an attack duty, as Cresswell is on attack duty so that would leave me open on the left flank, I guess I could try using Cresswell as WBs but fear it may a few of his darting runs and assists from left wing. I may try and see how it goes, am sitting in 3rd at Christmas, but wonder what I could do if I could get Payet firing!

You can switch Cresswell to Support duty and instruct him to Cross More Often and Cross From Deep. He will get forward plenty; the difference between the attacking full back (FB_A) and the supporting full back (FB_S) is that the FB_A will lead the counter attack, momentarily being your furthest forward player. The FB_S will leave that job to the man ahead of him, preferring instead to provide width for the second wave attack - either from the winger's backward pass or via the central midfielder, when you're already pressing the opposition back into their own third of the pitch. My right-backs on support duty are constantly my most consistent players, weighing in with plenty of assists - Callum Chambers at Everton, Louis Palmer at Sheffield Wednesday and Cyrus Christie at AFC Bournemouth, all of them in the Championship.

That will enable you to switch Payet to Attack duty. I would switch Antonio to Support duty. Then look at the crossing instructions that you're giving to your two full backs and two attacking wide men. You know that Payet is going to be lurking on that left hand post, but he's not particularly good in the air. So whipped crosses from Antonio, from deep, aimed to the back post should find Payet infront of goal for volleys and tap-ins. Is Sakho good in the air? If so, put your right back on Attack mode and tell him to get to the byline and cross for the Target Man. From the left side, Cresswell to Cross From Deep, aiming for the Target Man or for the centre - Antonio will feed on scraps (like Patrick Roberts did for me to good effect at Everton). In reality, Antonio was on Radio 5Live's 606 last week, telling Ian Wright that he likes to attack the far post for headers - but your team, your rules! The Inside Forward role imposes automatic instructions for crosses.

With one upfront, I prefer him to be either a Target Man_Support or a False-9_Support. The Target Man will hold the ball up and lay it off before getting into the middle for the cross. The False-9 will drop deeper and play More Direct Passes to switch the ball to the opposite flank, to get you moving forward quicker. So the wide men will sometimes go and attack without him; sometimes he'll get into the box for a low drive at goal. At times, though, it can you leave you with too few players in attack.

 

[ippe]

Ritchie is smashing it for you though! What's his pass completion stats like? What style of play do you ask? I am reluctant to change him to an attack duty, as Cresswell is on attack duty so that would leave me open on the left flank, I guess I could try using Cresswell as WBs but fear it may a few of his darting runs and assists from left wing. I may try and see how it goes, am sitting in 3rd at Christmas, but wonder what I could do if I could get Payet firing!

2015/16 - 71% pass completion
2016/ 17 - 74% pass completion
2017/18 - 80% pass completion
2018/ 19 - 78% pass completion

I started with counter attacking style in my first season but after I managed to sign couple of quality players I changed my tactics and started to play more posession oriented football in later seasons.

In your tactic I'd like to swap Noble to MCR and Kouyate to MCL. That would make your left flank more balanced if you like to try Payet as AP ( A ). For tougher games I'd also change Cresswell's duty to Support.

I'm not sure if these instructions work every time but they did fine for me so give it a try if you mind!

 

[maxchaplin55]

You can switch Cresswell to Support duty and instruct him to Cross More Often and Cross From Deep. He will get forward plenty; the difference between the attacking full back (FB_A) and the supporting full back (FB_S) is that the FB_A will lead the counter attack, momentarily being your furthest forward player. The FB_S will leave that job to the man ahead of him, preferring instead to provide width for the second wave attack - either from the winger's backward pass or via the central midfielder, when you're already pressing the opposition back into their own third of the pitch. My right-backs on support duty are constantly my most consistent players, weighing in with plenty of assists - Callum Chambers at Everton, Louis Palmer at Sheffield Wednesday and Cyrus Christie at AFC Bournemouth, all of them in the Championship.

That will enable you to switch Payet to Attack duty. I would switch Antonio to Support duty. Then look at the crossing instructions that you're giving to your two full backs and two attacking wide men. You know that Payet is going to be lurking on that left hand post, but he's not particularly good in the air. So whipped crosses from Antonio, from deep, aimed to the back post should find Payet infront of goal for volleys and tap-ins. Is Sakho good in the air? If so, put your right back on Attack mode and tell him to get to the byline and cross for the Target Man. From the left side, Cresswell to Cross From Deep, aiming for the Target Man or for the centre - Antonio will feed on scraps (like Patrick Roberts did for me to good effect at Everton). In reality, Antonio was on Radio 5Live's 606 last week, telling Ian Wright that he likes to attack the far post for headers - but your team, your rules! The Inside Forward role imposes automatic instructions for crosses.

With one upfront, I prefer him to be either a Target Man_Support or a False-9_Support. The Target Man will hold the ball up and lay it off before getting into the middle for the cross. The False-9 will drop deeper and play More Direct Passes to switch the ball to the opposite flank, to get you moving forward quicker. So the wide men will sometimes go and attack without him; sometimes he'll get into the box for a low drive at goal. At times, though, it can you leave you with too few players in attack.

I think the change to support duty from attack with Cresswell is imminent. This naturally allows Payet more freedom. I can see how you've been getting success with support duty full backs because Jenkinson WBs has been highest rated player, another reason why I think Cresswell can switch to support.

May I ask why you'd switch Antonio to support duty? He's been arguably my best player with 4 goals and 7 assists in 17 PL appearances. I am reluctant to change his role as he's been performing so well. FM haven't done Antonio justice with his heading stats however, with a reasonable 12 heading but a poor 9 jumping, something his leap, and superb header against City last weekend doesn't deserve!

Sakho is good in the air, think he has 16 heading, i've had lots of success from crosses, notching 23 assists from crosses in 21 PL games, so again I am reluctant to alter the crossing instructions, unless I see fit for Cresswell's new role.

I try and play a short passing game, so a Target Man doesn't really fit my philosophy, although DLFs is similar, in my tactic he just tends to receive the ball to feet. It has worked wonders with Sakho dragging a defender out of position, with whoever is in CMa bombing forward to receive his through ball 1v1.

Cheers for the help man!

 

[maxchaplin55]

Okay so for those interested/who have offered me advice.
Advice I have taken is (pretty much all RocheyBs! and ippe, thanks).

I tried changing Payet to IFa, Cresswell to WBs, and left Antonio as attack duty. I got a harsh lesson as lost 3-2 to both Villa and Sunderland. I noted that their wingers had too much time on the ball to pick a pass, this was due to both my wingers being attack duties, so I changed Antonio to support duty, and moved Kouyate as my BWMs to LCM, to close down the winger on that side. In my next few games, I was creating chances but something still wasn't right, the opposition with two strikers were just countering me to great effect, booting the ball over my defence like it was nothing. I decided I needed to have a holding player in the DM strata, so if a pass was made to the forwards, my defenders didnt have to be drawn out of position. With everything all finally set, I went on to play Leicester. A counter attacking, pacey team, 4th in the league, one place below me but only on goal difference. I will only add screenshots.

View attachment 129724 Enough clear cut chances?
View attachment 129723 Payet is back.
View attachment 129722 Any words needed, rocheyb?

 

[danzo97]

Okay so for those interested/who have offered me advice.
Advice I have taken is (pretty much all RocheyBs! and ippe, thanks).

I tried changing Payet to IFa, Cresswell to WBs, and left Antonio as attack duty. I got a harsh lesson as lost 3-2 to both Villa and Sunderland. I noted that their wingers had too much time on the ball to pick a pass, this was due to both my wingers being attack duties, so I changed Antonio to support duty, and moved Kouyate as my BWMs to LCM, to close down the winger on that side. In my next few games, I was creating chances but something still wasn't right, the opposition with two strikers were just countering me to great effect, booting the ball over my defence like it was nothing. I decided I needed to have a holding player in the DM strata, so if a pass was made to the forwards, my defenders didnt have to be drawn out of position. With everything all finally set, I went on to play Leicester. A counter attacking, pacey team, 4th in the league, one place below me but only on goal difference. I will only add screenshots.

View attachment 1075891 Enough clear cut chances?
View attachment 1075892 Payet is back.
View attachment 1075893 Any words needed, rocheyb?

Would you be able to post a screenshot of the final successful tactic? just started a West Ham save myself and need some help.

 

[maxchaplin55]

Would you be able to post a screenshot of the final successful tactic? just started a West Ham save myself and need some help.

Honestly still working on it mate, I think realistically you always will be working on it, mainly up to you and how you want to play but I will post a screenshot of my final tactic, sure!

 

[maxchaplin55]

View attachment 129621

 

[danzo97]

Nice one cheers mate, I'll have a go and let you know how I get on

 

[rocheyb]

I think the change to support duty from attack with Cresswell is imminent. This naturally allows Payet more freedom. I can see how you've been getting success with support duty full backs because Jenkinson WBs has been highest rated player, another reason why I think Cresswell can switch to support.

May I ask why you'd switch Antonio to support duty? He's been arguably my best player with 4 goals and 7 assists in 17 PL appearances. I am reluctant to change his role as he's been performing so well. FM haven't done Antonio justice with his heading stats however, with a reasonable 12 heading but a poor 9 jumping, something his leap, and superb header against City last weekend doesn't deserve!

Sakho is good in the air, think he has 16 heading, i've had lots of success from crosses, notching 23 assists from crosses in 21 PL games, so again I am reluctant to alter the crossing instructions, unless I see fit for Cresswell's new role.

I try and play a short passing game, so a Target Man doesn't really fit my philosophy, although DLFs is similar, in my tactic he just tends to receive the ball to feet. It has worked wonders with Sakho dragging a defender out of position, with whoever is in CMa bombing forward to receive his through ball 1v1.

Cheers for the help man!

The reason I would switch Antonio to Support duty is because I like to have one full back on Attack duty, overlapping the winger on his way to the byline on one side, with the other winger/inside forward on attack mode with his full back supporting. This maintains a degree of defensive discipline - rather than having two players trying to occupy the same space - while still having defenders and midfielders breaking the lines to contribute strongly to the attack. It also encourages your team to move the ball quickly across the pitch on the diagonal while the attack minded players get into more advanced positions - which will work even quicker if you have a creative central midfielder who likes to Switch Ball to Opposite Flank. This is with the intention of getting more out of Payet, of course, as per your OP. Your team might function better with Payet in the support role and Antonio attacking. Experiment and see what happens.

FM is like the England squad. It takes a season to realise who the improving players are, so a player's stats are always a little out of date. You can edit them, though. I have a soft spot for Michail Antonio because he did really well for us at Southampton when he was with us on-loan from Reading (out here in the real world) during our first season in League 1, and he scored in the 4-1 Johnstone's Paints Trophy Final victory against Carlisle United at Wembley. We can look back on those as fun times now that we're safely back in the Premier League!

I play a predominantly short passing possession game, but I use my central midfielders to get the ball wide and use both widemen and both full backs to get the ball into the box - each player has different instructions so we have varied angles of attack and it's more interesting to watch. I usually instruct Whipped Crosses but we score plenty of headers as well as low driven shots. At least we did in the Championship - I'm AFC Bournemouth, now back in the Premier League via the Championship Play-Offs and about to start the new season. If it's working for you with Sakho in the DLF position then so much the better.

 

[rocheyb]

Okay so for those interested/who have offered me advice.
Advice I have taken is (pretty much all RocheyBs! and ippe, thanks).

I tried changing Payet to IFa, Cresswell to WBs, and left Antonio as attack duty. I got a harsh lesson as lost 3-2 to both Villa and Sunderland. I noted that their wingers had too much time on the ball to pick a pass, this was due to both my wingers being attack duties, so I changed Antonio to support duty, and moved Kouyate as my BWMs to LCM, to close down the winger on that side. In my next few games, I was creating chances but something still wasn't right, the opposition with two strikers were just countering me to great effect, booting the ball over my defence like it was nothing. I decided I needed to have a holding player in the DM strata, so if a pass was made to the forwards, my defenders didnt have to be drawn out of position. With everything all finally set, I went on to play Leicester. A counter attacking, pacey team, 4th in the league, one place below me but only on goal difference. I will only add screenshots.

View attachment 1075891 Enough clear cut chances?
View attachment 1075892 Payet is back.
View attachment 1075893 Any words needed, rocheyb?

So it seems that Payet is your furthest man forward on attack duty. With the ball on the opposite flank, the support duty action for the other winger is to get in the middle for the cross - the time the ball spends in flight gives Antonio time to get there and apply the finish. And, crucially, you also have two other players in the box ready to pounce on any rebounds.

Take a look at my Manager Story during my short spell with Everton. I played the same formation as you for most of it and had them top of the Championship table by mid-season before a boardroom takeover did for me. I had two excellent young wingers on loan, one on support and one on attack duty. If you read some of my match reports you'll see how the system worked - I posted tactical screenshots for every match, so you might get some useful info from it. I had good distribution in the midfield, too, from the likes of Callum Slattery and Ryan Ledson playing More Direct Passes and Switching the Ball to Opposite Flank (PPM):
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...ship-title-bust-surviving-everton-exodus.html

 

[rocheyb]

View attachment 1076017

Ogbonna and Reid are both missing a green wedge in their Circles of Competitive Competence. I'd put them both in their preferred roles to get the most out of them. They've got cover infront of them from the DM. Personally, I prefer a Stopper alongside a Defend or Cover, but whichever players I have at DC I always switch them to their best role. Your other players are slaves to your system and ripe for re-training or replacement to give them a full complement of green wedges.

 

[maxchaplin55]

Cheers for all the advice man certainly helped me clinch Europa at the end of the season! Will take on board your centre back advice as I have never given it thought before, but I will definitely give your Everton story a look!