Having problem with counter-pressing tactic, advice needed

pandasaurus

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so i'm using liverpool trying to replicating Klopp's tactic, the idea is to play fast tempo, lost the ball a lot, and press the opponent non stop and turn defense into attack in fast tempo.

my problem with this tactic is, the defending system doesnt seem to close down properly but still conceded a lot of goals from the through ball due to the high defense line (which is crucial for this tactics to work)

here is the screenshot of my tactics, any advice would be appreciated

View attachment 151189 View attachment 151188 View attachment 151187 View attachment 151186

here is my tactic if you want to test
View attachment 151185

thanks in advance :)
 
many problems:
1,fluid team shape means less amounts so called "specialist role" like:ap dlp bpd..
think about what total football shaped by very fluid team-shape means.the defenders like CD will also attack by some creative pass while the attackers like CF will also defend from the frontline.so, for example,you don't need BPD now.
so,keep the ap&bbm ,and cancel the others and make RMD as IFa or Wa.
2,mentality
in fact,the control mentality is enough to attack.and lower mentality is needed in some situations.
3,team instructions
so wide width?you should keep enough campact to press efficiently just like narrower width and high defensive line.
or you'll waste the stamina and get bad results.
be more expressive and roam from positions?
very fluid team shape has meant the high freedom to express and roam..
and your player should keep enough close to the man he marks ,so don't roam so frequently.
in my opinion,if you wanna play with very fluid team shap,tick be more disciplined & stick to positions.

try this if you like
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...-barcelona-tiki-taka433-alternate-4231-a.html
 
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and there two ways to advoid conceding by through ball when your defensive line is high:
1,your cds are faster than the opponent CF,so they have enough time to run backward.
2,your cds are not so slow ,and have good positioning,then you can choose the offside trap . dont use different duties among the 2 CDs or the offside trap will fail.
 
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i thought positioning freedom is important in order to have more than one player hassle opponent with ball isnt it?
 
no
what will happen if the ball is got by the opponent palyer whose position's been roamed from?
 
so i'm using liverpool trying to replicating Klopp's tactic, the idea is to play fast tempo, lost the ball a lot, and press the opponent non stop and turn defense into attack in fast tempo.

my problem with this tactic is, the defending system doesnt seem to close down properly but still conceded a lot of goals from the through ball due to the high defense line (which is crucial for this tactics to work)

here is the screenshot of my tactics, any advice would be appreciated

View attachment 1052298 View attachment 1052299 View attachment 1052300 View attachment 1052301

here is my tactic if you want to test
View attachment 1052302

thanks in advance :)


Firstly, just a few asides: I find it funny you bought a left back and not a right back since you start with 3 fit left backs and only one fit right back;Beshion is right in saying that with a Very Fluid shape you want less of the specialist roles, but that is more a rule of thumb than a hard rule.

Now as to the tactic. Just as how you have TIs set for pressing, you also have to think of how your formation and roles fit in with that pressing then how the players fit in with their roles and instructions. I'm going to assume the players you have chosen is your preferred 11.

The Tighter marking instruction is a bit of a worry given you have no outright defensive minded midfielder (Can is holding for you but he isn't ideal due to low positioning) and four defenders one of whom has poor concentration to mark properly. This TI tells them to man mark which works better if you have mentally good markers or more players behind the ball than the opposition both of which aren't going to always happen because of your formation and personnel.

Because you're working with a 4-2-3-1 and a high line (attacking) and a compact vertical height (very fluid), you want to create depth when you're attacking (you want as much vertical space between you're 2 CMs and your striker) having a striker on support and a CM on support, squeezes the attacking players together so less vertical space for a player to move in to, so your Pass Into Space instruction won't be as effective. Giving Henderson a more defensive role (CM(s) or DLP (s) or a defend duty) and Sturrdige a more attacking role (AF) will create that depth and also has Henderson helping to cover Can's defensive vulnerabilities. By playing a 4-2-3-1, your two CMs will need to be more defensive and since your using Can, the other player will have to be more restrained to help out.

The TIs for Roaming and Expression seem odd given your shape, defensive roles, and use of playmakers. Positional freedom, while in how you have it defined would be great, it's not how it's defined in the game. These two TIs are more for attacking movement than they are for defensive movement. In fact, they are detrimental to defensive shape and movement as the player would have roamed from where he was supposed to be. It'd be more beneficial to tell specific players to roam and have more expression than to give the entire team that freedom since you're very fluid.

Whipped crosses is a bit more situational. It works best if your crossers have great balance and the 18 yard box gets congested, however the players on the end of them will still need to head them in. None of your front four are decent headers of the ball, so you may get more mileage out of low crosses. Also think of the runs your players make and direct crosses there.

Work Ball Into Box inadvertently slows down attacking tempo. The players will wait for that opportunity to shoot. Great in certain circumstances, but it does slow the tempo in the attacking third. An alternative is to take it off and give specific TIs to shoot less often to certain players.

Tempo, Width and Passing go hand in hand so I'll address them together. Frankly, your tempo is too high. You have players who are good on the ball and players who are good off the ball. Afford them a bit more time on the ball and off the ball. Shortening your pass length will get more players on the ball (it decreases width so your players are closer to receive the ball, they get on the ball more as your pass accuracy will go up, and it decreases the tempo by a bit as well so they can take more time on the ball and for players off the ball to get into a position to make a run.) and will conserve more energy for pressing. It will make you a bit more possession oriented (emphasis on the a bit) and some will argue that counterpressing does not involve short passing, but you have very good technical personnel so allow them more time on the ball and you'll get some good synergy with Play out of Defence.

As for player roles: Ditch LD for Skrtel, it runs counter to your Pass Out of Defence shout and tells him to boot the ball when given the chance. The BPD for Sakho is also a bit odd, you may have your reasons, but it seems odd. CD(d) for both should be fine given your shape and TIs and especially if you decrease your passing length.
Full backs are fine.
Henderson should be a more reserved role for reasons above. If playing Lucas, don't use the BWM role as while it is great for pressing, it gives up position far too easily.
Lallana as a Raumdeuter is odd, he can't finish but he's given the most responsibility in your setup to finish. IF(s) would be a better fit.
Sturridge as an AF would be my biggest suggestion. Removing Work Ball Into Box and telling him specifically to shoot less will let him run at players, run into space, and reduce his shooting from distance so he can wait for support if needed.

Let me know what you think of those.
 
okay, unticking work ball into box and making sturridge AF with shoot less sounds good, i'll try it out soon

and what do you think on moving coutinho deeper in midfield as a AP, then move firmino to replace coutinho as an IF, so it would be more like a 4-3-3?
you think it would make connection between midfield and forward better? (considering im gonna make henderson and can more defensive)
 
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okay, unticking work ball into box and making sturridge AF with shoot less sounds good, i'll try it out soon

and what do you think on moving coutinho deeper in midfield as a AP, then move firmino to replace coutinho as an IF, so it would be more like a 4-3-3?
you think it would make connection between midfield and forward better? (considering im gonna make henderson and can more defensive)

You could have both, after all you're allowed three tactics to train. You would just have to rethink how the pressing will work and how you fit the new roles into it. Same principles, you just now have your players arranged differently. Also, consider how your central three will work and how you can use the space that used to have an AMC in it. Also remember that your players will now be deeper. Having Coutinho in the middle can work just be careful of his PPM for long shots.

With your current squad you can mileage out of both the 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 because you have varying player types. Your lone striker can be AF/CF with Studge, TM or Treq with Bentekkers, you've got wingers in Ibe and Milner who because of their PPMs can make decent IFs on the opposite flank, playmakers with Lallana, Coutinho, Firmino/Ings being shadow strikers or IFs. Workhorses in the midfield and fullback positions. They may not be phenomenal but you've got enough versatility that your 4-2-3-1 on a Sunday can attack very differently than the one on a Thursday and still follow the basics of counterpressing. You can have a 4-3-3 look like a 4-2-3-1 on the ball by having a very defined attacking player in the central three.

Just have a good and clear idea of how you want the team to play and keep thinking of how the player performs in the unit around him.
 
You can try lower the D-Line a little bit, I think it wouldn't have any big impact on your "pressing" approach but it might help to some your defensive problems
 
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