Help With Standard 4-3-3 Aston Villa

[rawket]

Hi all, I currently have a Villa save (you can view the thread here). I'm halfway into the season and it appears the early effectiveness of my 4-3-3 tactic has worn off and the biggest problem I have identified is going forward. Crosses can't find Benteke, Benteke can't find crosses. Idk which. We're creating decent chances, but not finishing them. Could be a technical thing, though these are the same guys who were putting in a solid number of goals earlier in the season.

This is more or less a copy-paste post from my thread since I haven't gotten any responses there.


4-3-3

So this is the standard go-to formation I employ against most sides, since everyone is better than Villa. It's almost always on counter mentality, unless I feel we're controlling the game well or it's important to push forward so we can get back in the game. For the team shape, I'm considering moving towards fluid. Not sure if that'll disrupt the defensive side of our game.

I've reverted to a conventional 4-3-3, whereas I began the season with one of the defenders in the wing back position and one of the wingers on the same side shifted into the second striker position (see thread for clearer idea). I've found that BPL teams seem to be too threatening on the attack to have a back 3 and a wing back rather than a back four. Besides, the second striker, usually Gabby, seemed ineffective against BPL teams. I do still use that when I'm against weaker opposition, especially when they're particularly weak on one flank. But it hasn't been as great as before and so I've opted for more defensive stability.

Player Roles
Guzan is a Sweeper Keeper on Defend. His kicking is decent, tons better than his throwing which is weak. His anticipation is also good, so he's a good choice to come off the line and sweep up balls, which is useful since I use the push higher up tactic.

The left and right backs are Wing Backs on Support, but against stronger opposition who threaten down the flanks I put them as Full Backs on Support or Defend. Centre backs are conventional CBs on Defend duty.

The DM, usually Sanchez, is a Defensive Mid on Defend, supporting the other mids in attack but closes down opposition in defence and helps the back four. The second midfielder, usually Romero but occasionally Delph, is a Box to Box. Romero is an all round mid and I felt it's best to capitalise on this. Plus it makes great use of his energy. Lastly we have the Advanced Playmaker in Cleverley. Against teams I expect to dominate (but usually don't somehow) he's on Attack, going forward and creating chances. Otherwise, he'll be on Support duty.

The front three comprises Benteke as an Advanced Forward. His report recommends target man but I felt he could do more. I also occasionally play him as False Nine, to limited success. The wide forwards are usually Grealish and Agbonlahor as Wingers, but with Munir in I'm hoping to use him and Grealish as Inside Forwards on Attack as has been suggested. I usually see tactics where the front three are not symmetrical, e.g. if one IF is attack the other is support, or some other role. I'm also worried that Benteke won't get as much support from IFs as wingers, but support has been poor recently anyway.

Instructions
It's a counter tactic so I use More Direct Passing. I also use Pass Into Space as I think this makes the team hit high through balls over the opposition defence. I may be wrong. In fact I think I'm wrong as I don't see much of this in matches. Could someone kindly advise?

I use Play Out Of Defence as when there's a turnover in possession I don't want my players to immediately hoof the ball up the field, because there usually isn't much support up top. Rather I want them to stay calm and string passes and move forward, before launching the attack.

When attacking, I use Hit Early Crosses and Float Crosses to take advantage of Benteke's ability in the air. I also use Run At Defence as I think my wide forwards can threaten with their pace. Grealish and Munir also have great dribbling.

I use Play Narrower and Push Higher Up to compact the field, giving the opposition less space on the ball and more chances of us winning the ball back etc. I also use Tighter Marking and Prevent GK Short Distribution. I don't set Closing down under team instructions as I only want certain players to close down (mentioned in earlier posts). I find that the back four will be dragged out of position. So I've set it under player instructions instead, for all players except the back four.

Please do offer suggestions how I can improve this tactic. I foresee myself using it a lot for the foreseeable future so it would be great to have a tactically sound tactic to use. Please do correct any misconceptions I might have on the tactics. I'd like to learn more about the tactics side of the game and how to be better at it.

EDIT: I've been trying to tweak my tactics to figure out what works and what doesn't while I keep replaying my next match, which is against Hull. Have done this for around 5 times already. I can't seem to figure out anything at all though as it almost seems scripted for my side to lose all the time, either conceding penalties, or wondershots, letting in fluke goals from scrambles in the box, injuries to Cleverley and Romero or red cards. I can't tell if the changes I am making are working or not. So I really do need help figuring this tactic out.

I also notice my players often get dispossessed too easily, like they stand still and let the opposition tackle them or just lose the ball when the opponent approaches them. Is this a fault of the ME or is it due to their technical ability (which I doubt). Any suggestions on how to correct this?

Thanks again.

 

[rawket]

Bump! Anyone?
The thread's been getting a number of views, hoping for a reply. This forum's rather dead.

In the meantime, I finally managed to nick a 3-0 win over Hull.
I used:
Sweeper Keeper (Defend)
2 Wing Backs (Support)
Regista (Support)
Box to Box (Support)
Advanced Playmaker (Attack)
2 Inside Forwards (Attack)
Advanced Forward (Attack)

Instructions:
Shorter Passing
Pass Into Space
Run At Defence
Play Narrower
Push Higher Up
Use Tighter Marking
Use Offside Trap
Prevent Short GK Distribution
Lower Tempo

Mentality: Standard
Shape: Fluid


Benteke had an awful game up till he scored late in the game.
Grealish had a superb assist and a great goal.
Munir was terrible and replaced with Agbonlahor, who netted the first goal.

Seems to me that I won with luck and the flair of my players, not exactly because of the tactics.
Will test this same tactic in the next match against Sunderland. Do comment and offer suggestions please.
Thanks!

 

[dakofsta]

That formation is way too attacking. It worked at first because teams didn't know your tactic well enough, but now that they do, they can easily go on counter or defensive and beat you, even if you were the better team.

If I had that starting eleven, I'd put grealish on a support duty and give the instruction sit narrower, change cleverley to a deep lying playmaker or at worst an advanced playmaker on support, put benteke on a half-creating half-scoring duty (i.e. deep lying forward, complete forward on support) and use the following team instructions:

- higher tempo
- more direct passing
- push higher up
- look for overlap (used against teams with terrible fullbacks or narrow formations)
- close down more
- run at defence

See how that goes

 

[rawket]

That formation is way too attacking. It worked at first because teams didn't know your tactic well enough, but now that they do, they can easily go on counter or defensive and beat you, even if you were the better team.

If I had that starting eleven, I'd put grealish on a support duty and give the instruction sit narrower, change cleverley to a deep lying playmaker or at worst an advanced playmaker on support, put benteke on a half-creating half-scoring duty (i.e. deep lying forward, complete forward on support) and use the following team instructions:

- higher tempo
- more direct passing
- push higher up
- look for overlap (used against teams with terrible fullbacks or narrow formations)
- close down more
- run at defence

See how that goes

Cheers for the reply. I didn't think it was too attacking - there are only 3 players on attack duty. Which I thought should be the minimum number of players attacking when going forward? If I tweak Benteke to CF Support and Grealish to IF Support, I'd only have Munir on attack. Will that blunt my already weak attacks even more?

Cleverley is already an AP on Support Duty. I rarely use Attack duty since I'm hardly ever the favourite. Just so happens that the screenshot showed him on Attack. I'm reluctant to use a DLP over AP because without an AM the 4-3-3 already lacks someone playing between the lines, hence AP.

So I should play two IFs but one on Support while the other on Attack? Also, how do I pick between Grealish/Munir/Agbonlahor etc who to be Attack and Support?

Is it ok to not use Close Down More in the TI but set individual PI? Which is what I've done because I for one don't like to have my back four dragged out of shape just to close down.

Thanks again!

 

[Igneos79]

work ball into box will help you finish chances...pass into space may be a bit to risky TI...tighter marking is making your players stay close to opposition instead of in space, including your striker....if you want that direct ball to find him, turn it off...

 

[TesleR]

I used:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...s/179480-christianeriksen-beautiful-play.html

Worth a look.

Being a Villa fan I'm always up for a challenge when using them. I found NZogs to be class with this although I struggled to get the best out of Benteke, fortunately the wingers made up for it, with bags of goals. Grealish is immense.

It's the same sort of structure as your tactic but with tweaks, maybe give it a go and see how you get on.

 

[rawket]

That formation is way too attacking. It worked at first because teams didn't know your tactic well enough, but now that they do, they can easily go on counter or defensive and beat you, even if you were the better team.

If I had that starting eleven, I'd put grealish on a support duty and give the instruction sit narrower, change cleverley to a deep lying playmaker or at worst an advanced playmaker on support, put benteke on a half-creating half-scoring duty (i.e. deep lying forward, complete forward on support) and use the following team instructions:

- higher tempo
- more direct passing
- push higher up
- look for overlap (used against teams with terrible fullbacks or narrow formations)
- close down more
- run at defence

See how that goes

Right, so I've made all the changes. I'm afraid there's not much improvement. The balls are hit to Benteke (half the time he isn't there) instead of over the defence. We have a good number of shots but little CCCs.

I've run the tactic against Hull thrice.

First match:

First goals was a close range header, followed by a wondershot, a penalty and lastly a rebound shot. Match was plagued with minor injuries to my midfielders. All of which happens quite a lot, though not always all at once like this. Suppose it was bad luck, I tried it a second time.

Second match:

A closer match, but beaten by a far post header from a cross. Had some shots but didn't threaten. Mostly long shots.

Third match:

Same as the first. Conceded some wondershots and a near post hit.

Kinda disappointed that it doesn't help but cheers for the suggestion mate.

work ball into box will help you finish chances...pass into space may be a bit to risky TI...tighter marking is making your players stay close to opposition instead of in space, including your striker....if you want that direct ball to find him, turn it off...

I'm pretty sure tighter marking only applies when you're not in possession of the ball. It would be pretty silly and counterprodructive if the players continued to stick to their opponents when in possession.

As mentioned in my post, I'm not exactly looking for direct balls to Benteke. More like the team hitting some high through balls (balls over the top of the defence) while others get behind the defence.

Cheers anyway!

I used:

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...s/179480-christianeriksen-beautiful-play.html

Worth a look.

Being a Villa fan I'm always up for a challenge when using them. I found NZogs to be class with this although I struggled to get the best out of Benteke, fortunately the wingers made up for it, with bags of goals. Grealish is immense.

It's the same sort of structure as your tactic but with tweaks, maybe give it a go and see how you get on.

I've seen this tactic being used a lot but the thread only shows the formation and not the team instructions so I never really got around to downloading it and using it.

But now that I have yes the instructions seem pretty similar to the new set which I have stumbled upon (see post #2). Only issue is the roles are quite different and I'll have to see if my players can fit into those roles. CM Attack etc require some pretty all round players. Most of mine aren't that great technically.

I'll see how this goes. Thanks mate.

 

[Igneos79]

I'm pretty sure tighter marking only applies when you're not in possession of the ball. It would be pretty silly and counterprodructive if the players continued to stick to their opponents when in possession.

As mentioned in my post, I'm not exactly looking for direct balls to Benteke. More like the team hitting some high through balls (balls over the top of the defence) while others get behind the defence.

Cheers anyway!

Well, tight marking makes players more willing to defend then to attack. If you want to counter attack properly, as soon as the ball is won, forward should be in space. And since he is on tight marking, he will be closer to opponent and not in space, so ball will not find him. It is very important to roam and play more expressive,as you will have fewer chances to score and be marked. If he is tight marking, he wont be there. And btw, counter is a more cautios, less agressive, transition game, so you should really pick less agressive TI's, like shorter passing, deeper line, less closing down, lower tempo, combined with fluid team shape...

 

[dakofsta]

Read through my old tactical thread. It allows me to prepare for each game individually and be confident of a win every time.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...57-southampton-fc-tactical-exercise-fm15.html

If you feel too lazy to scroll through the pages and see a tactical tweak which you can learn, post a screenshot of Hull's team report and starting xi and I'll help you from there

 

[rawket]

Well, tight marking makes players more willing to defend then to attack. If you want to counter attack properly, as soon as the ball is won, forward should be in space. And since he is on tight marking, he will be closer to opponent and not in space, so ball will not find him. It is very important to stick to position and play disciplined, as same situations will appear over and over again, so players usually send the ball at the same spot. If he is tight marking, he wont be there. And btw, counter is a more cautios, less agressive, transition game, so you should really pick less agressive TI's, like shorter passing, deeper line, less closing down, lower tempo, combined with fluid team shape...

Hmm ok I see your point on tight marking. I really believe I can pull this high through ball style off, but I'm equally certain that tight marking is needed. I'll have to find a compromise. Indeed Benteke isn't exactly tasked with marking anyone. I'm thinking I should do the same as I did with the closing down instruction - take it out of the TI and set individual PIs. Any thoughts?

On the topic of closing down, I actually think it's necessary to press the opposition and actively win the ball back when playing a Counter tactic. Also, since I probably won't have much control in the game and hence less time on the ball, would lower tempo be counterproductive to a Counter tactic, where the ball should be moved from the back up the field quickly once there's a turnover in possession?

For deeper line, I do use it sometimes if I find the opposition uses long balls, but I select push higher up to compact the playing area, especially between the defence and midfield, which I believe will hinder any AMs operating there, as well as concede less territory to the opposition.

I'm reading your point about the Counter mentality being cautious/less aggressive and I suspect I might have some misconceptions about the mentality. Perhaps I'm interpreting it differently than what the Match Engine sees it as. I'm really looking for an aggressive pressing counter style. If I'm understanding you correctly, the ME interprets the Counter mentality as a cautious style, which certainly clashes with my ideas. I suppose I should use the Standard mentality instead then?

Cheers for bringing up the points. I think I'm understanding how the game works much better now.

Read through my old tactical thread. It allows me to prepare for each game individually and be confident of a win every time.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...57-southampton-fc-tactical-exercise-fm15.html

If you feel too lazy to scroll through the pages and see a tactical tweak which you can learn, post a screenshot of Hull's team report and starting xi and I'll help you from there

Noted, I'll have a look. It's a very very long thread. Hopefully I can pick out something more advanced than just spotting potential weak areas to exploit the opposition, which is the best I'm doing now.
Thanks!

 

[Igneos79]

Hmm ok I see your point on tight marking. I really believe I can pull this high through ball style off, but I'm equally certain that tight marking is needed. I'll have to find a compromise. Indeed Benteke isn't exactly tasked with marking anyone. I'm thinking I should do the same as I did with the closing down instruction - take it out of the TI and set individual PIs. Any thoughts?

On the topic of closing down, I actually think it's necessary to press the opposition and actively win the ball back when playing a Counter tactic. Also, since I probably won't have much control in the game and hence less time on the ball, would lower tempo be counterproductive to a Counter tactic, where the ball should be moved from the back up the field quickly once there's a turnover in possession?

For deeper line, I do use it sometimes if I find the opposition uses long balls, but I select push higher up to compact the playing area, especially between the defence and midfield, which I believe will hinder any AMs operating there, as well as concede less territory to the opposition.

I'm reading your point about the Counter mentality being cautious/less aggressive and I suspect I might have some misconceptions about the mentality. Perhaps I'm interpreting it differently than what the Match Engine sees it as. I'm really looking for an aggressive pressing counter style. If I'm understanding you correctly, the ME interprets the Counter mentality as a cautious style, which certainly clashes with my ideas. I suppose I should use the Standard mentality instead then?

Cheers for bringing up the points. I think I'm understanding how the game works much better now.

Counter attacks happen automatically. Ball is won deep in your half, there is space behind opponents because they pushed high, and your striker or winger only has his defender to bypass and run...if opponent refuses to commit players forward, you play a sensible short passing, lower tempo game and control the match, which is why counter mentality features more players behind the ball...ball is often sent backwards, which is where fluid team shape will also help....with fluid, your wingers will track back and help, releiving pressure. What you are probably looking for is attacking or even overload. Overload instructs players to both attack and do counters and press high up like crazy in an attempt to score, but in that case, team shape should be structured as you will mostly rely on physicallity...


in any case, take a look at this thread http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...ics/205292-team-shape-roles-duties-guide.html to learn proper roles and duties for yor style...

 

[rawket]

Counter attacks happen automatically. Ball is won deep in your half, there is space behind opponents because they pushed high, and your striker or winger only has his defender to bypass and run...if opponent refuses to commit players forward, you play a sensible short passing, lower tempo game and control the match, which is why counter mentality features more players behind the ball...ball is often sent backwards, which is where fluid team shape will also help....with fluid, your wingers will track back and help, releiving pressure. What you are probably looking for is attacking or even overload. Overload instructs players to both attack and do counters and press high up like crazy in an attempt to score, but in that case, team shape should be structured as you will mostly rely on physicallity...


in any case, take a look at this thread http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...ics/205292-team-shape-roles-duties-guide.html to learn proper roles and duties for yor style...

Just as I thought! I've been having some very serious misconceptions about mentality, thank you for correcting them.
That's a very detailed guide, I'll certainly have a read. Cheers mate for all the help!

I think I'll stick to Standard for now. I don't think my team is ready (or capable) to go with an attacking mentality.

 

[Igneos79]

Just as I thought! I've been having some very serious misconceptions about mentality, thank you for correcting them.
That's a very detailed guide, I'll certainly have a read. Cheers mate for all the help!

I think I'll stick to Standard for now. I don't think my team is ready (or capable) to go with an attacking mentality.

451 combined with a standard flexible approach is ideal for keeping possession....take a look at my Tesla tactic, I already made it.