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Hitting the woodwork, 15+ shots on target per match, opponents always more clinical..

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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First things first, this is not a rage or frustration post, this is a question/advice thread.

Managing Chelsea, got arguably one of the best squads in the world after a few seasons, won the league only losing 1 game the previous season and reached UCL final with 2 main tactics.

However, this season more so (even though it was still evident in previous seasons) I am hitting the woodwork an unrealistic amount of times per match, I am creating an unrealistic amount of chances (some key, but a lot of shots and shots on target) per match sometimes 40 shots per match but the opposition are creating a fraction of that at the other end and are always so much more clinical.

The key here is "always". This is not a coincidence. Not a one-off or a bad spell of luck like IRL, this is 9/10 games I play, my higher quality players are missing a ridiculous amount of chances whilst the opponents go up the other end and grab a winner.

Maybe there is a fault in my tactic or my players mentality but it seems strange that when I come up against a good team and they create a lot of chances they NEVER have 6-7 woodwork being hit, they never have 15+ shots on target and my keeper getting MOM like it does versus me and when they do create more chances I will get trounced 5-0.

Bad luck? Bad tactics? Bad players? If this was happening on occasion I could blame it on luck. If my previous successes never happened i'd blame it on players/tactics but it is happening all the time and even on different saves, with different teams and different tactics.

There has always been a strong claim on FM forums that the ME cannot differentiate between user and AI teams but why does this always happen to me and never my AI opponent? I can only suspect the worse as I never seems like my team and the AI team play the same game regardless of if I win or not.

Could someone explain this?
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
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There has always been a strong claim on FM forums that the ME cannot differentiate between user and AI teams but why does this always happen to me and never my AI opponent? I can only suspect the worse as I never seems like my team and the AI team play the same game regardless of if I win or not.
It's not a claim. It's just a fact.

Sounds like a downloaded tactic, tbh. 40 shots is a lot. You seem to be generating the same type of chance that's more likely to get woodwork hits. Without any proper info, it's not really possible to tell, is it?

"Normal" tactics should see you get around 0.8 hits per match, but then these are in line with real life numbers. With so many shots, you should see more per match. As I said though, you're probably generating the same type of chance over and over and it may be that that particular chance has a higher than normal chance of hitting the woodwork.

I just looked at my own matches (and I go on 30-40 match unbeaten runs) where in the last 8 matches, the woodwork was hit twice and this is counting both teams, so 0.25 hits / match.
 

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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It's not a claim. It's just a fact.

Sounds like a downloaded tactic, tbh. 40 shots is a lot. You seem to be generating the same type of chance that's more likely to get woodwork hits. Without any proper info, it's not really possible to tell, is it?

"Normal" tactics should see you get around 0.8 hits per match, but then these are in line with real life numbers. With so many shots, you should see more per match. As I said though, you're probably generating the same type of chance over and over and it may be that that particular chance has a higher than normal chance of hitting the woodwork.

I just looked at my own matches (and I go on 30-40 match unbeaten runs) where in the last 8 matches, the woodwork was hit twice and this is counting both teams, so 0.25 hits / match.
Nope. Every year I play this game I always average 30-40 shots per match and this is without "shoot on sight" or "try long shots" instructions...without downloaded tactics. Normally, however, my players are a bit more clinical and the AI dont score every chance they get.

Its not the same chance that is hitting the woodwork either. Free kicks, occasional long shots, open-goal rebounds, shots from the bye-line, one-on-ones. I accept that the more shots I have, the greater the chance of hitting the woodwork but:
1. The AI never (and thats no exaggeration either) hit the woodwork. They create no way near as many chances as I do so thats expected but somehow manage to always score with those chances
2. The AI are way more clinical than my team - that is a fact. It would be bad enough me only scoring 4 of my 15+ chances a match (to keep it realistic the ME wont let me score 4 per game!) but sometimes I am not even scoring and the AI have 2 shots on target and score two goals. Maybe thats a coincidence but not 9/10 games surely?

The goals I am conceding are so varied too that I cannot put it down to a major flaw in my tactic. Rebounded goals, free kicks, crosses, screamers, individual defensive errors and occasional penalties. This is the same tactic that nearly broke the record of lowest goals conceded in the previous season so I'm scratching my head how the AI are all of a sudden soooo much more clinical. (Even last season they were clinical, it was just I was limiting them to even less chances, sometimes 1 shot per game but they'd still nick a goal with those stats every now and then whilst I'm at the other end missing sitter after sitter!!!)

In my last 50 matches I've had 458 shots on target and 87 goals. An incredibly low conversion rate considering. I don't have the opponent's stats available to me but I can guarantee that this is wayyyyy higher.

I also hit the woodwork 79 times in that time. Nearly more than what i scored.
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
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Nope. Every year I play this game I always average 30-40 shots per match and this is without "shoot on sight" or "try long shots" instructions...without downloaded tactics. Normally, however, my players are a bit more clinical and the AI dont score every chance they get.
That's still a lot of shots, indicating that you are very aggressive. Anything over 30 shots a match is wasteful, imo.

Its not the same chance that is hitting the woodwork either. Free kicks, occasional long shots, open-goal rebounds, shots from the bye-line, one-on-ones. I accept that the more shots I have, the greater the chance of hitting the woodwork but:
Fair enough.

1. The AI never (and thats no exaggeration either) hit the woodwork. They create no way near as many chances as I do so thats expected but somehow manage to always score with those chances
So they have fewer shots, meaning that they hit the woodwork less than you. That's fairly obvious.

2. The AI are way more clinical than my team - that is a fact. It would be bad enough me only scoring 4 of my 15+ chances a match (to keep it realistic the ME wont let me score 4 per game!) but sometimes I am not even scoring and the AI have 2 shots on target and score two goals. Maybe thats a coincidence but not 9/10 games surely?
You're the dominant team in most of your matches. Might be that you're giving up few shots then, but those you are giving up are of decent quality given that you must be quite aggressive and they only break when it is possible. You have to realise that the opponents will be using Counter/Defend etc Mentalities against you - being such a dominant team, right? That means they play safe. Every decision is affected - shots included.

In my last 50 matches I've had 458 shots on target and 87 goals. An incredibly low conversion rate considering. I don't have the opponent's stats available to me but I can guarantee that this is wayyyyy higher.

I also hit the woodwork 79 times in that time. Nearly more than what i scored.
2 things.

1 - Are you talking about shots or shots on target? If it's shots on target, it's poor. If it is shots, it is normal.

2 - You make it sound like you regularly hit the woodwork, which you clearly are not. Your figures are still high though. The fact that you're taking so many shots will be a large factor as to why you're averaging over 1 woodwork hits per match.


If I were you, I'd rather look at why you're wasting so many shots instead of creating better chances. Speaking of... "chances" doesn't equal shots. The ME doesn't prevent you from scoring. It can't. That's silly. I can't understand how/why people think this. I scored 5 against Man Utd where I took 18 shots in total. In the next match, I had Vitesse who were extremely defensive and scored 5 against them too, but this time taking 35 shots, which is a bit of an anomaly.

Looking at my own stats I have 518 shots, 240 on target with 58 goals in the league, but I'm quite dominant and I don't prevent long shots at all. In fact, I have a midfielder (not a regular though) who I ask to shoot more often because he's so good at taking long shots.

Why don't you post the tactic you're using?
 
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vanTiggelen

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Dec 7, 2014
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louiscfc;2985679 In my last 50 matches I've had 458 shots on target and 87 goals. An incredibly low conversion rate considering. I don't have the opponent's stats available to me but I can guarantee that this is wayyyyy higher. [/QUOTE said:
Is this real? Would like to see a screenshot of the team report /stats where this is shown, a shot of the season's results plus possibly a pkm or uploaded. That's the worst conversion I've ever seen though if it is in fact genuine and since I had experimental saves where I forced sides to shoot asap, it boggles my mind. Individually, anything can happen, but in the long run the SOT conversion with somewhat sensibly tactics hover around the 1 in 3-4 mark, and 1 in 9-10 shots is a goal. As a human player you were always able to outperform the AI. One thing suspected is like in many downloads this year, alarmingly so, no single player staying deep (basically how no team in football plays neither in real football nor in the world of FM). Another might be an influx of AI managers appointed by clubs this season who prefer multiple forwards who stay high up the pitch and pick up interceptions every time as of FM and make it easier to counter. Plus random chance.

Either way, there is no AI bias. You are incidental to the world rather than it revolving around you. So there is dynamics, underdogs and favorites every match. Nobody cares an ounce about whether sides are managed by human managers or AI managers, however both typically play very differently. Already explained it here, video of previous release included (plus the following). There is the possibility that you might have hit on a (marking) bug, such as FM 2010ish, where defenders split positionally (which was buggy), opening channels for no angled through balls down the middle. Whilst most of them resulted in SOTs, and actually one on ones, they weren't that good chances due to the no angle balls. Easy saves for the keeper, ratings getting bumped. So therefore a pkm would be interesting.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2016-discussion/349902-post-your-frustration-rage-51.html#post2978279


Otherwise, this is some individually "cherry picks" of Real managed by AI at the start of the game, all league matches from a season yet to finish off. Just to show that nobody's being rigged, however in your case, the averages sound alarming. Individually it is totally football that "statistically" dominating sides don't go on to win every match.


http://i.imgur.com/wXLAsDQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xvXKI1a.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Emqxgve.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4p0MpCz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Yhamo4m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WM7jVhP.jpg


As a big side you will face the same kind of opponent week in week out going by your description. However if you would try to replicate somewhat what the AI underdog is doing and only ever advance from counters yourself or set pieces, then matches would turn into totally stalwarts naturally. That's two sides barely advancing and risking a thing on low risk mentalities, with a top side I had provoked a sequence where I had 7 0-0 draws from 10 matches. Naturally with always a bare minimum of 5 or 6 players on defend duty visibly staying behind the ball, no counter attacks triggered then too ever and generally zero space to break into when the ball is won back by any of the two sides.

edit: If you can't be arsed don't expect anybody else to.
 
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louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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@van Tiggelen. CBA to post SS or pkms, those were the shots and target, the goals scored and the amount of woodwork hit. Not lying, those are the figures and its pretty pathetic from my strikers. For the record I have Barbosa, Costa, Lukaku and Volland as my ST's and Hazard, Rafinha and Pedro as my IF's.

I get that i am the bigger team and the AI will defend, but its not that I dont create chances due to their "parking of the bus", I create sooooo many CCC's and I always miss more than I score in a game and normally hit the woodwork more than once per game too. Losing count the amount of times the opposition keeper is getting POM against me too.
 

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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2 things.

1 - Are you talking about shots or shots on target? If it's shots on target, it's poor. If it is shots, it is normal.

2 - You make it sound like you regularly hit the woodwork, which you clearly are not. Your figures are still high though. The fact that you're taking so many shots will be a large factor as to why you're averaging over 1 woodwork hits per match.


If I were you, I'd rather look at why you're wasting so many shots instead of creating better chances. Speaking of... "chances" doesn't equal shots. The ME doesn't prevent you from scoring. It can't. That's silly. I can't understand how/why people think this. I scored 5 against Man Utd where I took 18 shots in total. In the next match, I had Vitesse who were extremely defensive and scored 5 against them too, but this time taking 35 shots, which is a bit of an anomaly.

Looking at my own stats I have 518 shots, 240 on target with 58 goals in the league, but I'm quite dominant and I don't prevent long shots at all. In fact, I have a midfielder (not a regular though) who I ask to shoot more often because he's so good at taking long shots.

Why don't you post the tactic you're using?
1. I am talking about shots on target. In previous versions I'd have 30+ shots per match and hardly any on target so I couldn't really complain but this year i am averaging 15+ shots on target in last 20 games or so and 10+ over last 50. Still somehow, the AI are more clinical and believe it or not, my tactic isn't super attacking or aggressive.

2. I am making it sound like I hit the woodwork regularly because I do. 1.5 times per game and some games 4-5. Average drops when I play bigger teams and struggle to create as many chances. Not realistic.

How am i supposed to change how I am wasting shots? Like I said, the chances being missed are brilliant saves by the keeper (which is why so many earn POM against me), one on one chances and woodwork being hit from a whole host of areas, and I can't get many better players in game. Maybe I should buy some striker with 12 finishing and 9 composure from the AI and i'll start banging in every chance I create...

People think the ME stops you from scoring because the more chances you create, the more CCC chances you create, the chance conversion drops dramatically. If it didn't and reflected those in real life i'd be winning 5-0+ nearly every game. If I had the same chance conversion rate of the AI for whatever reason i'd score so many more goals.

Your stats, 240 on target 58 goals. Mine, 458 on target 87 goals. Your have a far higher conversion.
 

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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View attachment 154928

TIs: Lower tempo, shorter passing, play narrow, play out of defence, normal def line, prevent GK distr, use offside trap, much more closing down, mixed crosses.
No additional PI's only ones that their role assigns them
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
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1. I am talking about shots on target. In previous versions I'd have 30+ shots per match and hardly any on target so I couldn't really complain but this year i am averaging 15+ shots on target in last 20 games or so and 10+ over last 50. Still somehow, the AI are more clinical and believe it or not, my tactic isn't super attacking or aggressive.
The tactic IS aggressive. Very. I'm speechless.

- You use an attacking/aggressive Mentality.

- Then you think that leaving only 3 players back is a good idea. It's suicidal. No wonder you're giving up good chances.

- You're sending both fullbacks up, so there should be 2 reserved midfielders - not 1. The B2B and CM/A will both get forward quite a bit, especially with their PPMs as well. Pogba will waste shots with that role and his PPM.

- Barbosa has a PPM to try killer balls often... to who? You have no one consistently getting past him, except maybe the CM/A. Why is at least 1 of the wide players not doing more?

- I haven't seen it in action, but I have my doubts that your intense closing down is very effective with only a fairly high line. I can only see you creating gaps here.

2. I am making it sound like I hit the woodwork regularly because I do. 1.5 times per game and some games 4-5. Average drops when I play bigger teams and struggle to create as many chances. Not realistic.
It isn't realistic because the tactic isn't very good (not realistic either) and you're wasting a lot of shots. For the amount of shots you're taking, the woodwork numbers aren't too far off 'normal' rates.

How am i supposed to change how I am wasting shots? Like I said, the chances being missed are brilliant saves by the keeper (which is why so many earn POM against me), one on one chances and woodwork being hit from a whole host of areas, and I can't get many better players in game. Maybe I should buy some striker with 12 finishing and 9 composure from the AI and i'll start banging in every chance I create...
You're supposed to watch matches to see what's happening and why you're wasting shots.

Here are 4 things to look at and I haven't even taken the 5 minutes you should to watch a part of a match.

1 - You're bunching up 5 of your players.

2 - No one is sitting to recycle possession. No one is providing width.

3 - Pogba will be wasting shots, especially since you're building up so slowly.

4 - Considering that you have fullbacks who will swing the ball in at every opportunity, who are they crossing to? How will he/they win that ball against Premier League level defenders who will mostly be very good in the air?

So you're not using space (a vital concept) very well.

People think the ME stops you from scoring because the more chances you create, the more CCC chances you create, the chance conversion drops dramatically. If it didn't and reflected those in real life i'd be winning 5-0+ nearly every game. If I had the same chance conversion rate of the AI for whatever reason i'd score so many more goals.
That's because people don't know what they're doing and they can't be bothered to watch more than Key Highlights, tbh.

Number of shots does NOT equal quality shots. You're wasting. These shots will be poor quality.

Your stats, 240 on target 58 goals. Mine, 458 on target 87 goals. Your have a far higher conversion.
That's because I'm using space much better than you are and I'm using the same formation this season.
 
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Radiancer

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I don't notice that my teams hit the woodwork too often, I think it’s in line with real life stats :)
 

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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The tactic IS aggressive. Very. I'm speechless.

- You use an attacking/aggressive Mentality.

- Then you think that leaving only 3 players back is a good idea. It's suicidal. No wonder you're giving up good chances.

- You're sending both fullbacks up, so there should be 2 reserved midfielders - not 1. The B2B and CM/A will both get forward quite a bit, especially with their PPMs as well. Pogba will waste shots with that role and his PPM.

- Barbosa has a PPM to try killer balls often... to who? You have no one consistently getting past him, except maybe the CM/A. Why is at least 1 of the wide players not doing more?

- I haven't seen it in action, but I have my doubts that your intense closing down is very effective with only a fairly high line. I can only see you creating gaps here.

It isn't realistic because the tactic isn't very good (not realistic either) and you're wasting a lot of shots. For the amount of shots you're taking, the woodwork numbers aren't too far off 'normal' rates.

You're supposed to watch matches to see what's happening and why you're wasting shots.

Here are 4 things to look at and I haven't even taken the 5 minutes you should to watch a part of a match.

1 - You're bunching up 5 of your players.

2 - No one is sitting to recycle possession. No one is providing width.

3 - Pogba will be wasting shots, especially since you're building up so slowly.

4 - Considering that you have fullbacks who will swing the ball in at every opportunity, who are they crossing to? How will he/they win that ball against Premier League level defenders who will mostly be very good in the air?

So you're not using space (a vital concept) very well.

That's because people don't know what they're doing and they can't be bothered to watch more than Key Highlights, tbh.

Number of shots does NOT equal quality shots. You're wasting. These shots will be poor quality.

That's because I'm using space much better than you are and I'm using the same formation this season.
Where to begin?

Barely any of the goals I concede come off a counter attack. It used to when I played a high line as i'd be hit o the break from a ball over the top so I lowered this and it worked wonders last season.

Barbosa has no one to pass to? CM and both IFs have play one-two's as well as the FB's that overlap which is the main success of this tactic. Besides Barbosa is only filling in for Costa so its not like this tactic is pivoting around one players' ppm.

"Tactic isn't really good" OK. Sure haha.

Matic is sitting to recycle possession. If I play him as a DM or anchor he doesn't provide enough support to attacking players and slows the game even further.

Both full backs are providing an insane amount of width and is where nearly all of my assists come from. And like I said, very rarely do I concede due to them being exploited on a counter attack.

Who are the FBs crossing too? My ST, cm who arrives late and winger. My FBs provide a lot of assists and get very good match ratings.

People cannot be bothered to watch 90 minute simulated matches because they also have a job and a life. Unfortunately people will continue to play casually and will only see what key or extended highlights show them and that always raises questions, especially when you have conversion rates as bizarrely as mine.

Using space has nothing to do with hitting the woodwork every single game multiple times which was the main point in this thread. Yes the quality of the shooting is poor from my players but apart from the attributes and confidence, I'm creating the chances and for some reason they cannot finish, yet the AI's can.

I must be using space really poorly for my players to miss open goals or one on ones and hit the woodwork..
 

vanTiggelen

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Dec 7, 2014
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The tactic IS aggressive. Very. I'm speechless.
It is and it is compressing the final third. But still doesn't explain this insanely low conversion rate. But as "can't be arsed" and "ha-hah" seems to be the attitude, no dice really. All guess work so far.

Except for one thing, that is: There is no AI bias. You wouldn't need to watch matches in full to grasp this, even. It's easy to predict that he's facing teams having oft both wide defenders plus at least a central mid on defend duty for prolonged periods every match, being such a good and successfully side. They don't risk anything very rigidly. Therefore nobody is ever dragged out of position. Conversely off the little attacks the op gets they will be launched into space as unlike his opponents, he has like all of his players advancing, and players advancing that is guys who have to rush back when attacks break down and ball change hands. As a consequence, no matter if it is a direct frantic pace counter attack or not, the few shots of the op tend to be taken in space, whereas he is running into brick walls of players never moving out of position every attack. That's what happens with big sides, happens to such AI sides just as well as posted. If you would exclusively look at the matches where at all you conceded thus or dropped points, and ignore all of those where that didn't at all happen, by default you're looking for information that confirms a bonafide confirmation bias.

It's such a simple spot from but watching like 30 seconds of match play.


His team attacking:



His opponents, both wide defenders but several mids not even making any forward runs:




Simple as that. I'm still suspecting running into an actual bug either in play or on the stats page as mentioned earlier, as the overall shot conversion should be somewhere around 10%, and for SOT conversion to be this lowly I've never seen that ever. Otherwise I'm also still suspecting that if we could take a look at the actually save, we'd find multiple AI sides who convert worse. Overall. That said, yeah, the reason you'd regularly get like silly 40 shot counts is typically because final thirds are hugely compressed by everybody advancing, forcing play into cul-de-sacs (no back passes on to rebuild and stretch play) so players on top of actually quality finishes are forced into additionally (weakish) finishes as they can only ever play forward, very very simple team sports logics. FM isn't a statistics simulator. Passes can only be played to where players are and that's what's happening in the match play second by second. It's the play making numbers, not the other way around. It's hard arguing though in particular with anybody who's successful anyhow. Maybe Si should increase how playing this aggressively as baseline default is punished more regularly for yet another time, that is aside of the occasionally added frustration of always having like 40+ attempts and a comparably lowly return. However it can't be all tactics. However the many downloads that have no holding mids this year whatsoever and doing fine regardless of team, that points to that spotting and exploiting space would still need improving, plus AI tactical decision making.
 
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WJ

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Apr 3, 2014
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Well done on missing almost all of my points.

Barely any of the goals I concede come off a counter attack. It used to when I played a high line as i'd be hit o the break from a ball over the top so I lowered this and it worked wonders last season.
It doesn't even have to be a counter attack. You ARE leaving masses of space when you attack though, and that's a fact - you can look at this yourself, so you are making it so easy for teams to get forward.

You can adjust the D-line to anything, it doesn't change the fact that you have too few players staying back.

Barbosa has no one to pass to? CM and both IFs have play one-two's as well as the FB's that overlap which is the main success of this tactic. Besides Barbosa is only filling in for Costa so its not like this tactic is pivoting around one players' ppm.
So you show a tactic with the wrong players selected? Okay.

The point about Barbosa is that you're not utilising him and his PPM. That was all. It was a question that was supposed to make you think about what it is that you're doing. So the plan is then to hold up the ball and play through balls to the fullbacks and the CM/A? That's fine. It was a question. He won't really be playing through balls to the IFs, I don't think, because they're both deep as well.

"Tactic isn't really good" OK. Sure haha.
I was going to use a more accurate term, but though better of it. It is not good at all though, so yes.

Matic is sitting to recycle possession. If I play him as a DM or anchor he doesn't provide enough support to attacking players and slows the game even further.
Ah, so the one player who sits back is also required to get dragged into play as well to do (what should be) someone else's job to be the main player who recycles possession? That means Matic now also gets sucked into that group of 5 (7 with the attacking fullbacks) making it extremely congested. You are not using space well up front and you're leaving a lot of space behind. Your stats do agree, so I don't see why you're having an issue with what I'm saying?

Both full backs are providing an insane amount of width and is where nearly all of my assists come from. And like I said, very rarely do I concede due to them being exploited on a counter attack.
That's because you're congesting the middle so much, that not very much can happen. Like I said, it doesn't have to be a counter attack (although you will cause a lot of counters against you) but the fact that you are quite open. The evidence is there - you yourself said that you're giving up easy chances - that the opposition's scoring rates against you are good.

Who are the FBs crossing too? My ST, cm who arrives late and winger. My FBs provide a lot of assists and get very good match ratings.
That's not what I asked. I did ask more than that one question, yet it's the only one you answer.

People cannot be bothered to watch 90 minute simulated matches because they also have a job and a life. Unfortunately people will continue to play casually and will only see what key or extended highlights show them and that always raises questions, especially when you have conversion rates as bizarrely as mine.
That's again not what I said. I said watch parts of a match. It takes 5 minutes (I even specifically said 5 minutes, but you missed it?) to watch a part of a match in full. If you pay attention, you can probably spot issues in 2 minutes. You don't have at least 5 minutes a day? It takes longer to post what you did than it'll take to look for issues.

You have issues. We both admit to that. Why haven't you taken the time to look at what they are?

Using space has nothing to do with hitting the woodwork every single game multiple times which was the main point in this thread. Yes the quality of the shooting is poor from my players but apart from the attributes and confidence, I'm creating the chances and for some reason they cannot finish, yet the AI's can.
This is brilliant. Another missed point.

You don't hit the woodwork "every single game multiple times". You hit it 1.58 times a match. That's double what it should be. You are taking double the shots that any 'normal' team would, so it is to be expected. That was the main point, it was one I addressed already, but you also missed.

I must be using space really poorly for my players to miss open goals or one on ones and hit the woodwork..
Can I refer you to your own stats? Your own stats show that you're doing an extremely poor job of converting shots into goals.

My point was that you're not using space well at all. It's going to be so congested that the shot quality will be poor.
 

louiscfc

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Apr 2, 2012
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Well done on missing almost all of my points.


It doesn't even have to be a counter attack. You ARE leaving masses of space when you attack though, and that's a fact - you can look at this yourself, so you are making it so easy for teams to get forward.

You can adjust the D-line to anything, it doesn't change the fact that you have too few players staying back.

So you show a tactic with the wrong players selected? Okay.

The point about Barbosa is that you're not utilising him and his PPM. That was all. It was a question that was supposed to make you think about what it is that you're doing. So the plan is then to hold up the ball and play through balls to the fullbacks and the CM/A? That's fine. It was a question. He won't really be playing through balls to the IFs, I don't think, because they're both deep as well.

I was going to use a more accurate term, but though better of it. It is not good at all though, so yes.

Ah, so the one player who sits back is also required to get dragged into play as well to do (what should be) someone else's job to be the main player who recycles possession? That means Matic now also gets sucked into that group of 5 (7 with the attacking fullbacks) making it extremely congested. You are not using space well up front and you're leaving a lot of space behind. Your stats do agree, so I don't see why you're having an issue with what I'm saying?

That's because you're congesting the middle so much, that not very much can happen. Like I said, it doesn't have to be a counter attack (although you will cause a lot of counters against you) but the fact that you are quite open. The evidence is there - you yourself said that you're giving up easy chances - that the opposition's scoring rates against you are good.

That's not what I asked. I did ask more than that one question, yet it's the only one you answer.

That's again not what I said. I said watch parts of a match. It takes 5 minutes (I even specifically said 5 minutes, but you missed it?) to watch a part of a match in full. If you pay attention, you can probably spot issues in 2 minutes. You don't have at least 5 minutes a day? It takes longer to post what you did than it'll take to look for issues.

You have issues. We both admit to that. Why haven't you taken the time to look at what they are?

This is brilliant. Another missed point.

You don't hit the woodwork "every single game multiple times". You hit it 1.58 times a match. That's double what it should be. You are taking double the shots that any 'normal' team would, so it is to be expected. That was the main point, it was one I addressed already, but you also missed.


Can I refer you to your own stats? Your own stats show that you're doing an extremely poor job of converting shots into goals.

My point was that you're not using space well at all. It's going to be so congested that the shot quality will be poor.

Okay first of all, i'd like to apologise for being so abrupt and unhelpful. I'm coming off of a wonder season where my tactic worked delights to where it is really struggling and I guess I am blaming the game instead of trying to improve my tactic.

I'm still not sure it is a bad tactic like you say. Solid defensively and creates a wealth of chances and like I mentioned, the previous season it was near perfect but the AI have definitely adapted to it. But I was also being too defensive of the tactic and not open to criticism which it clearly deserves at the moment.

Woodwork is still too much regardless of the amount of shots I have and there's little anyone can say to change my mind about that so lets just move on.
You mentioned that I am too wide open at the back and fine, I accept that now, but it still doesn't account for the amount of glorious chances my players are missing compared to my opponents. The opposition may well be taking their chances more because they have "better chances" but just from looking at the majority of chances I miss (even in key highlights), they fall into the same category. One on ones, easy chances. Not all of this is just down to a tactic, these are individual errors also.

From the feedback I have got so far in this thread I have quickly set up a new tactic which is hopefully more balanced but also maintains some of its key principles.
View attachment 154706

Both FBs are now on support duty so they can still provide width but perhaps not leave so much space behind. Now playing with 2 DMs. One that recycles possession and protects the defence and a deeper playmaker. Changed one IF to support but apart from taking more long shots i am not clear what this actually changes but it looks less "aggressive" without all my players on attack duty. As my midfield is slightly deeper and more conservative I changed the ST to a complete forward as he will probably be isolated a bit more than he was previously and thus needs to do more on his own. Also changed TI's to make it more simple and adaptable.

This might be a pile of **** and feel free to tell me. Im no expert and dont know the in's and out's of all roles and duties.
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
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Okay first of all, i'd like to apologise for being so abrupt and unhelpful. I'm coming off of a wonder season where my tactic worked delights to where it is really struggling and I guess I am blaming the game instead of trying to improve my tactic.
No worries.
I'm still not sure it is a bad tactic like you say. Solid defensively and creates a wealth of chances and like I mentioned, the previous season it was near perfect but the AI have definitely adapted to it. But I was also being too defensive of the tactic and not open to criticism which it clearly deserves at the moment.
What it created was a lot of shots. I've said it before, but rather focus on the quality of the shots.

Woodwork is still too much regardless of the amount of shots I have and there's little anyone can say to change my mind about that so lets just move on.
Actually, I was wrong here. Woodwork hit rates in this ME averages at 0.91 hits per match. That's an 'official' stat by SI and it's off by extremely little (something like 0.01) compared to real life.

Given that you shoot so much, your team will skew this completely. Take better shots and you'll automatically see this drop. If anything, I'm seeing an unrealistically low number in my matches, but as you saw, my team is a lot more clinical.

You mentioned that I am too wide open at the back and fine, I accept that now, but it still doesn't account for the amount of glorious chances my players are missing compared to my opponents. The opposition may well be taking their chances more because they have "better chances" but just from looking at the majority of chances I miss (even in key highlights), they fall into the same category. One on ones, easy chances. Not all of this is just down to a tactic, these are individual errors also.
There are always individual errors and off days. That's fine. Not everything goes to plan. The tactic did have major issues though.

From the feedback I have got so far in this thread I have quickly set up a new tactic which is hopefully more balanced but also maintains some of its key principles.
View attachment 1048393

Both FBs are now on support duty so they can still provide width but perhaps not leave so much space behind. Now playing with 2 DMs. One that recycles possession and protects the defence and a deeper playmaker. Changed one IF to support but apart from taking more long shots i am not clear what this actually changes but it looks less "aggressive" without all my players on attack duty. As my midfield is slightly deeper and more conservative I changed the ST to a complete forward as he will probably be isolated a bit more than he was previously and thus needs to do more on his own. Also changed TI's to make it more simple and adaptable.
If anything, you've gone a bit too far the other way now.

The feedback was that if you're going to have BOTH fullbacks on attack, leaving the defenders alone, you need 2 midfielders to be able to cover for them. Now you're not really pushing the fullbacks anywhere and still you have a holding midfielder there.

You're going to struggle to break down defensive sides with so few men committed forward. At the very least, you can have a Wingback / Support. He'll be fairly reserved initially, but get more forward than a simple FB/S and you may even see very late overlaps.

A good rule of thumb is to always have 3 players stay back, with a reserved Support duty player. In this case, 2 defenders + DM/D + 1xFB/S is more than enough.

This might be a pile of **** and feel free to tell me. Im no expert and dont know the in's and out's of all roles and duties.
Try it out. It's the only way you'll know yourself and see if you have issues.
 
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