Is it possible to have a tactic with 4 at the back that has good defence in 14.3?

[jonnysnipe]

From my experiences it has to be a big fat no, ive downloaded a lot of tactics and can see that 4 at the back ones are disgracefully bad for defence! Now I am sure I will have a few people coming in here saying look at my results blah blah blah, no doubt it is with a good team probably top 6 and above! I am talking teams such as Palace, Cardiff, Hull, Villa in the Premiership show me a full season where they have managed to keep clean sheets with a 4 at the back!

Unreal series by TFF has been the best defensively but no offence to him even with some top players in one of my saves it is not the most entertaining football with 5 at the back! Then you have these no striker formations which have like 7 in midfield. Is there a tactic for 14.3 that looks like a normal everyday formation that keeps clean sheets? I am talking a 4-4-2, a 4-2-3-1, a 4-1-2-2-1, a 4-1-2-1-2, a 4-4-1-1 would even take a 4-2-2-2!

Slight bit of a rant but know the games trying to push towards reality but I have played FM (on a regular basis) over the last 3 years and this one has to be the least enjoyable, in terms of smaller teams it is a hard struggle even when you manage to build a decent squad, it then turns out the CPU has learnt your formation and you have to change it even though you built a squad on a shoestring budget.

In conclusion, 4 at the back formation with lesser teams? Have you seen one that works? I have never really made my own if anyone would have any recommendations for a solid base I may give it a go!

 

[Dynamo_ZahnZee]

4 at the back is (to me) a specialist Defensive System that requires very good defenders when facing 2 strikers. It's designed to be employed when facing lone striker formations but also needs a Central Midfield that is very responsible and cuts out the midfield passing options. You need hard working players in these systems.

In the Championship, I've seen a notable push towards 3 CB's to man-mark 2 strikers while leaving a floating sweeper to zonal mark and sweep up crosses, through balls.


In real life, I play in Goal and I've started studying real work tactics as I go after my coaching badges (Last year I worked with some of Limerick F.C.'s Youth teams and took the opportunity to chat with some of the full time, permanent coaches ), I can tell you straight off that clean sheets come at the expense of an attacking mentality. Clean Sheets are coveted because they are ****** hard to get and should never be expected; they should be worked towards.

I am talking teams such as Palace, Cardiff, Hull, Villa in the Premiership show me a full season where they have managed to keep clean sheets with a 4 at the back!

I do think you're being a bit unfair here mate. In real life, these teams struggled to get clean sheets last season.
Crystal Palace: 11 clean sheets
Cardiff City: 7
Hull: 9
Aston Villa: 9

On adverage these teams conceded in 73% of their matches so I think it's unfair to be expecting clean sheets when playing as them.

even with some top players in one of my saves it is not the most entertaining football with 5 at the back!

This is the Cheaslea vs Liverpool debate mate. Do you want clean sheets or goals? One has to come at the expense of the other

this one has to be the least enjoyable, in terms of smaller teams it is a hard struggle even when you manage to build a decent squad

Again mate, you need to be fair here. How enjoyable the game is is subjective. I love that it's difficult because the realism is why I play. I've been involved in football my whole life and "brutal" is the word I'd use to describe what it is and how it treats us. Football is unforgiving and I enjoy that the game is becoming like this. It makes the success that much sweeter.

if anyone would have any recommendations for a solid base I may give it a go!

My advice? Defend from the front!!!! If the ball gets to your back four, 6 of the 11 men on the field have let it get that far. I'f you're only relying on your back 4 to defend, you've neglected 55% of your teams defensive capability (and this is assuming you're using defensive Full backs who don't go forward).

You're strikers need to be set up to not give the back line any time on the ball, they need to presses and harass.
Your midfield needs to be responsible and not unbalanced. Look at their position and stop them from leaving holes in midfield as I've always felt that any attack that makes it to my defensive line, only got there because my midfield didn't defend properly.

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Not having a go mate, it just sounds like you're struggling and I want to share what I know to hopefully help you turn things around and get on top of the problem.

 

[jonnysnipe]

We are saying its going to realism in this game then why do tactis such as a 3-7-0 work and stuff like that! 11 clean sheets for Palace would be a god send in this football manager! Defending from the front is all well and good but watching the highlights simple mistakes cost you, to me this game is not about the tactical prowess but to me its about the team building! In previous years (last year I think) I got Shrewsbury to prem built a lovely team of youngsters along the way! Thats what the game is about to me, tactics is second fiddle this is why this year it has become more frustrating. FM12 as well my fleetwood save was my favourite nearly of all time and I played the same tactic for nearly 10 years! Suppose people enjoy the game for different reasons and for people like me who mainly enjoy the team building and getting from the bottom to the top the game will become worse and worse. But tactically minded people will be pleased even the the ME is also ridiculous, you can defend a few games where you have 6 CCCs and the CPU has 1 and they still win but 10+ games a season where that happens is extremely unrealistic!

 

[Dynamo_ZahnZee]

Tactics like 3-7-0 work because they have a logical constancy within them. If you take the time to really go in depth to study them, you'll figure out why they work but I do understand that no everyone wants to (or cares enough to bother) which is fine. Everyone is entitled t play the game they want to.

There is no "real" way to play this game.
Tactical, team building, building up the club, looking after the finances, signing the best players, ect.
We will all have out favorite part of the game but all of these things are involved in Management. I think that's why I love the game, because it covers everything.

Teams loosing games or throwing away games even though them dominated may not seem realistic but it dose happen. Ask any arsenal fan and they'll tell you that that was what they had to face from 2009-2013. Liverpool also dominated a lot of their games in the 2012/13 season yet finished 7th. Chances don't win games, goal do and frankly, if we knew how to get goals: we'd be footballing geniuses working with professional clubs and being mentored like Murinhio was at Barca.


If you just prefer the team building aspect of FM, try out a few of the tactics to download and just concentrate n building a squad. The community here offers everything we need to cover the side of FM we don't want to have to look after (tactics, shortlists, player reviews, ect) so we can focus on enjoying the game.

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As for a back-4 two shape, I'll show you my philosophy.

View attachment 349254

The two CM's are vital to make the back 4 work since they offer the passing options to link the defensive line to the attacking line.

View attachment 349253

As the ball moves forward, the FB's provide with and offer passes left or right to spread the opposition midfield so as to open space to pass into. But the CM's fall back (I've them instructed to play deep) to cover the spaces now left open as the CBs move wider to cover the space left by the FB's moving forward.

See how everyone here has a job throughout the processes of moving the ball forward. They have both a creative supporting role and a defensive role that they carry out simultaneously. What is happening further up the field is irrelevant for now, they set themselves up to leave no gaps that can be exploited. This also helps recycle possession as the team is spread out over the lower half of the pitch.


This is the system that'm I'm working on with my Sporting save but I've tried using aggressvie Wing Backs and a Half Back. I try to set up my teams to be defensibly responsible while being available to play the ball.

 

[jonnysnipe]

How is that working out for you? I am setting up with a 4-2-1-2-1 at the moment with palace trying to find a concept that works! Logical sense dictates that yes your DMs will move back and the CBs spread wide but I find that not to be the case most the time on fm!

 

[GFRay]

How is that working out for you? I am setting up with a 4-2-1-2-1 at the moment with palace trying to find a concept that works! Logical sense dictates that yes your DMs will move back and the CBs spread wide but I find that not to be the case most the time on fm!

Always use a DM with this FM, because it's the most overpowered position in the game.

 

[Burwood]

I'm struggling with 4 at the back too; I concede so many from crosses into the box (usually where my keeper inexplicably waits near the back post for the ball, and it gets intercepted at the near post by an opposing striker). The philosophy of 'the best form of defence is attack' doesn't seem to work on this game. Even though I'm usually challenging for a champions league spot now, I have never achieved double figures in clean sheets in the league.
I've been using the Sir Goalalot formation, and I'm trying a tweak now with the exact same front 6 as before, but changing to a back 3 with an anchor man playing just in front. Only tried it for 2 games, but I've kept 2 clean sheets in a row so far

 

[jonnysnipe]

Interesting, have you tried the new Sir Goalalot? The defence is a lot better I am playing with Hull and everything is going pretty nicely! Keep me updated on that tweak though it sounds interesting! What team you playing as?

 

[Burwood]

Interesting, have you tried the new Sir Goalalot? The defence is a lot better I am playing with Hull and everything is going pretty nicely! Keep me updated on that tweak though it sounds interesting! What team you playing as?

I'm playing with West Brom, have been for a long time though (I think I'm in my 9th season) so they're a lot better than they were (almost every player is a regen). It's kind of a shame though, because I like having 4 at the back really (and I have a good right back who will sadly have no place if this works out), but all too often one of my CBs gets dragged out of position to close down a wide player, and i'm left with one centreback to defend a cross. Using the front 6 of the sir goalalot formation, the wingers do get back and help out a lot, even though I haven't changed any of their instructions.

 

[jonnysnipe]

So how is the experiment going then?

 

[Igneos79]

It's not just defending with back 4 in my opinion. It's a whole team effort. You can pack your defensive third with all players if you want, but you can conceede from a long shot. Or you can push everyone up, and concede from counter. The trick in keeping a clean sheet in my experience is balance. Use a balanced formation, that has players in every part of the pitch, put enough pressure on the players, and have right players at the right place at the right time. Know your formation, end eliminate it's weakness, and focus on its strength. Motivate your players for each and every game, and success will not bypass you. Everything is important, ccc's, shots on targets, possession, set pieces, pressing. If you focus solely on one particular area, you will fail. The key is balance and using your whole team.

 

[Burwood]

So how is the experiment going then?

Hit and miss. Sometimes it works really well, but other times I struggle to create anything and really hang on to stay in games. Since trying it out, my record is:
played 10, won 6, drew 2, lost 2, Goals for 23, Goals against 10 (4 clean sheets)
I know that looks pretty good on the surface, but my 6-0 win v Swansea helps make it look better than it perhaps was, and most of the teams I played were beatable. In one game I lost 3-1 at home to Wigan, and they well and truly destroyed me, despite being 15th in the league (They had 19 shots and 6 cccs compared to my 6 shots and 1 ccc), and I also drew 2-2 away at the bottom club, Brentford, in a surprisingly even game.
I'm glad I tried something a bit different, but I think I'll go back to 4 at the back and try some tweaks there instead.