Man City 3-0 Liverpool: Hodgson’s 4-4-2 completely outplayed
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Football fans are such fickle fellows. There were so many complaints about Benitez from a number of people, though a great deal of them came from outside the Liverpool camp, to be fair. Now it seems that Hodgson is the next one on the chopping block, and with good reason.
Let's review the so-called mistakes that Mr. Benitez made during his stay at Anfield.
1. "Zonal marking doesn't work"
Pretty certain that Liverpool conceded a goal from a corner tonight, and not using zonal marking.
2. "Rafa doesn't make any substitutions or tactical changes until it's too late"
Speaks for itself with the changes tonight really.
3. "Rafa took Torres off when we were losing!"
Uh-huh...
4. "We weren't good to watch"
Well your endeavours under Hodgson so far have been a truly delightful spectacle.
Those of you who called for Rafa's head - who are you going to blame now?
Let's review the so-called mistakes that Mr. Benitez made during his stay at Anfield.
1. "Zonal marking doesn't work"
Pretty certain that Liverpool conceded a goal from a corner tonight, and not using zonal marking.
2. "Rafa doesn't make any substitutions or tactical changes until it's too late"
Speaks for itself with the changes tonight really.
3. "Rafa took Torres off when we were losing!"
Uh-huh...
4. "We weren't good to watch"
Well your endeavours under Hodgson so far have been a truly delightful spectacle.
Those of you who called for Rafa's head - who are you going to blame now?
well said, they still blame rafa (he left us a poor squad etc) ive said my piece on this plenty tonight. very tough season ahead if they keep to this style
The elephant in the living room is Carra. Mr.Hodgson will have to deal with that. Rafa seems to have tried to deal with it and it helped contribute to him losing his job. Until that's sorted out though, the team will be unbalanced as a result of trying to cover for his lack of pace. Think the world of the fella, but time for someone to ease him to a squad role.
Today showed why we should of kept Rafa. He'd never have went for a 4-4-2 today, couldn't believe Hodgson's decision to switch to a 4-4-2 tonight and the fact people were praising that decision was shocking. Before the match I said a 4-4-2 wouldn't work.
What is wrong with Aurelio? Agger was always going to get ripped apart tonight by Adam Johnson and with a natural striker and an attacking midfielder the only help he had defensively, he had no chance against Johnson. We are in dire need of a left-back although I am sure Aurelio would of dealt with Johnson a bit better tonight.
The decision to play 4 in midfield was basically ludicrous. There was no balance. We had strikers on both wings and an attacking midfielder in the centre with Lucas who, I feel cannot tackle or defend. Poulsen should have started and Gerrard should have been playing in his best position (behind the striker). Poulsen could of then broken the play up, won us the ball back and Lucas could have had slightly more freedom.
N'gog and Torres, two strikers who were never going to link up well although I thought they'd have been worse together than they were. They weren't actually too bad but with Gerrard and Lucas often having to track back and Kuyt and Jova often roaming inside they were generally left isolated from the midfield.
For the third game in three games the defense was too deep. Roy's tactical decisions today were poor, most of it was common sense and I agree with Billy's post above. Roy won't get slated for today however if it was Rafa who made those decisions he would be slaughtered by opposition fans and the media.
To the City fans who thought they were brilliant tonight, in all honesty your performance wasn't that good. You beat a very, very poor Liverpool side. I'm not taking anything away from you guys, fair play it was a good result for use but I am sure you will face much tougher tests this season. Gutted I went to watch it tonight, it was an embarrassment for the fans and Roy has got to sort the team and his tactics out for the foreseeable future.
What is wrong with Aurelio? Agger was always going to get ripped apart tonight by Adam Johnson and with a natural striker and an attacking midfielder the only help he had defensively, he had no chance against Johnson. We are in dire need of a left-back although I am sure Aurelio would of dealt with Johnson a bit better tonight.
The decision to play 4 in midfield was basically ludicrous. There was no balance. We had strikers on both wings and an attacking midfielder in the centre with Lucas who, I feel cannot tackle or defend. Poulsen should have started and Gerrard should have been playing in his best position (behind the striker). Poulsen could of then broken the play up, won us the ball back and Lucas could have had slightly more freedom.
N'gog and Torres, two strikers who were never going to link up well although I thought they'd have been worse together than they were. They weren't actually too bad but with Gerrard and Lucas often having to track back and Kuyt and Jova often roaming inside they were generally left isolated from the midfield.
For the third game in three games the defense was too deep. Roy's tactical decisions today were poor, most of it was common sense and I agree with Billy's post above. Roy won't get slated for today however if it was Rafa who made those decisions he would be slaughtered by opposition fans and the media.
To the City fans who thought they were brilliant tonight, in all honesty your performance wasn't that good. You beat a very, very poor Liverpool side. I'm not taking anything away from you guys, fair play it was a good result for use but I am sure you will face much tougher tests this season. Gutted I went to watch it tonight, it was an embarrassment for the fans and Roy has got to sort the team and his tactics out for the foreseeable future.
With what money? We're a team on a downward spiral, Liverpool fans should be expecting a long hard season. We've replaced a world-class manager with one who got easy, common-sense decisions wrong yesterday. Mascherano is on his way as-well leaving us weaker in the midfield. Honestly, I'd take a Europa League place now.
I'm trying to keep more of an eye on what's going on behind the scenes that on the pitch right now though. Administration is becoming a real possibility for Liverpool.
I might as well add my thoughts to the debate, I wish to discuss Man City and there success tonight, rather than Liverpool’s failings, as is always on fm-base
Man City played the same formation as they did the week previous against Spurs, with a lot more attacking fluidity than the Spurs game.
I cannot decide if I think this is because they were at home, there for, have the advantage, perhaps the players are becoming familiar with the system and felt comfortable going forward?
We saw on several occasions Yaya, Barry and De Jong getting forward.
Or maybe this is how Mancini planned it all along, sit back and become difficult to break down on those tough and tricky away games, settle for a point if needs must but hope to hit sides on the counter and get the 1-0? Only time will tell I guess, he is Italian after all.
Although they were not spectacular and on paper and didn’t appear to have controlled the game, I felt like they did, apart from a spell before and after half time and after the second goal.
City passed the ball about freely and really controlled the tempo of the game, Johnson had a great game and looked very confident up against Agger, who really looked at odds in that position.
Where is Aurellio? The man was supposed to have been impressive enough to offer a new deal? Lescott on the other hand, had a great game and did little wrong.
Joe Hart had a quiet day at the office compared to white hart lane, but still managed to pull off a fine save in the second half, he spread his body well and looks more and more reliable, which is a quality you need in a keeper. You want to feel as though they are unstoppable and get that feeling of ‘It’s ok, Hart is in goal’
I was fuzzing over Kompany on the irc chat room last night and rightly so I say, the man is a rock and never puts a foot wrong. He made countless blocks and tackles last night and really doesn’t get the praise owed to him. Perhaps it’s because he isn’t as big a name as the others?
Early estimations suggest to me that City will have a great season ahead. They have an incredible squad with amazing depth. Mancini has the options there to change his style whenever he chooses.
Can he keep all the egos happy? Why not! Players in the 25 will know they have a future and are guaranteed games. Exhilarating times ahead, unlike there opponents last night, who once again are asking the same questions as last year.
Man City played the same formation as they did the week previous against Spurs, with a lot more attacking fluidity than the Spurs game.
I cannot decide if I think this is because they were at home, there for, have the advantage, perhaps the players are becoming familiar with the system and felt comfortable going forward?
We saw on several occasions Yaya, Barry and De Jong getting forward.
Or maybe this is how Mancini planned it all along, sit back and become difficult to break down on those tough and tricky away games, settle for a point if needs must but hope to hit sides on the counter and get the 1-0? Only time will tell I guess, he is Italian after all.
Although they were not spectacular and on paper and didn’t appear to have controlled the game, I felt like they did, apart from a spell before and after half time and after the second goal.
City passed the ball about freely and really controlled the tempo of the game, Johnson had a great game and looked very confident up against Agger, who really looked at odds in that position.
Where is Aurellio? The man was supposed to have been impressive enough to offer a new deal? Lescott on the other hand, had a great game and did little wrong.
Joe Hart had a quiet day at the office compared to white hart lane, but still managed to pull off a fine save in the second half, he spread his body well and looks more and more reliable, which is a quality you need in a keeper. You want to feel as though they are unstoppable and get that feeling of ‘It’s ok, Hart is in goal’
I was fuzzing over Kompany on the irc chat room last night and rightly so I say, the man is a rock and never puts a foot wrong. He made countless blocks and tackles last night and really doesn’t get the praise owed to him. Perhaps it’s because he isn’t as big a name as the others?
Early estimations suggest to me that City will have a great season ahead. They have an incredible squad with amazing depth. Mancini has the options there to change his style whenever he chooses.
Can he keep all the egos happy? Why not! Players in the 25 will know they have a future and are guaranteed games. Exhilarating times ahead, unlike there opponents last night, who once again are asking the same questions as last year.
Kris said:
Interesting post, and this point.. he certainly tried this out at The Emirates at the end of last season, more or less throwing away any hopes City had of qualifying for the CL, and Arsenal had of winning the title. He went for a very italian approach to that game, and squeezed out a 0-0 draw, similar to that last weekend, in the other side of North London. I wasn't expecting much from this game to be perfectly honest, i thought City were poor, and unambitious last weekend, and i thought they'd do the same last night, with Liverpool failing to create any chances in a tough away fixture, and the most likely result being 0-0, or a close win to either side.
Man City were excellent last night though, moved the ball around well, and confidently, and as a team, but Liverpool looked off the pace, and nervous. Perhaps last week was just that from both sides? A nervous performance at Anfield, and WHL, with neither of last night's teams wanting to lose the first game, probably going into them as slight underdogs.
Having said that, City have always been superb at home, and always willing to attack, they showed that against Chelsea, Man Utd, and Arsenal at Eastlands last year, although admittedly a lot of attacks came from playing on the counter, and why not? With players as quick, strong and skilfull as Tevez, Bellamy (now replaced by the controversial Mario Balotelli, and with passers like Stephen Ireland (James Milner) willing to drop deep, they also of course have Adebayor to punt the ball to if they really need that goal, but, like Arsenal with Chamakh, it seems doubtful they'll use this much, if they use Ade at all.
D
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Im glad Kris sees what i do in Kompany, hes our best defender by some distance, he never lets anyone get past him, he completely shut down Torres, i think Kompany is in the top 3 center backs in the premier league, a bit of a biased comment, but i think he makes way less mistakes than the likes of John Terry and Thomas Vermaelen
you know my feelings on him already, been saying all last season he was under-rated. honestly cant think of many defenders better than him in the league apart from vidic. you looked good, toure was imperious, but liverpool's setup made your job a easier. will be interesting when you come up arsenal, and more importantly chelsea and united
D
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My top 3 would be Vidic, Kompany and Gary Cahill (think hes extremely under rated)
Good analysis here: http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/manchester-city-liverpool-report230810/
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I never have been a fan of Rafa but his tactics in this game would of been spot on, playing his usual 4-5-1 making us completely rigid and impossible to break down, leaving torres up front on his own and playing christian poulsen alongside lucas in the holding midfield role, this actually frees lucas or poulsen up to probe across the defence and go left or right and destroy attacks while the other holding midfielder holds the central area.
It also gives Steven Gerrard the freedom to play more forward henceforth putting pressure on the Manchester City midfield and giving Liverpool more of an outlet because of the strength he possesses, he also allows the wingers a certain decree of freedom of moving inside and working alongside him when the ball is given away, or spreading further out wide and giving the holding midfielders more passing options and Liverpools game a little more fluency.
However after all of this Liverpools defence is still in some need of a serious reader of the game as Carragher, Skrtel and Agger do not have this ability, this means that the less composed centre back has to have a fair amount of pace so they can deal with all the harder tackles as the reader of the game will often stray away from this duty. The full backs also need to learn that playing against big teams like City away from home, means that they will have to be very difficult to get round and always willing to block tackles, against city our full backs should of shown Johnson and Milner down the line onto their weaker feet making it difficult to provide a quality ball, this combined with the fact that the centre backs then have an easier job of clearing the ball probably meant that City's first goal wouldn't of been conceded.
As for Fernando Torres on his own up front he would of just have to chase the defense down for 90 minutes while Liverpool chased a 0-0 draw or a 1-0 victory.
That's how you play against city! That or they just shoot from long range and we get unlucky.
It also gives Steven Gerrard the freedom to play more forward henceforth putting pressure on the Manchester City midfield and giving Liverpool more of an outlet because of the strength he possesses, he also allows the wingers a certain decree of freedom of moving inside and working alongside him when the ball is given away, or spreading further out wide and giving the holding midfielders more passing options and Liverpools game a little more fluency.
However after all of this Liverpools defence is still in some need of a serious reader of the game as Carragher, Skrtel and Agger do not have this ability, this means that the less composed centre back has to have a fair amount of pace so they can deal with all the harder tackles as the reader of the game will often stray away from this duty. The full backs also need to learn that playing against big teams like City away from home, means that they will have to be very difficult to get round and always willing to block tackles, against city our full backs should of shown Johnson and Milner down the line onto their weaker feet making it difficult to provide a quality ball, this combined with the fact that the centre backs then have an easier job of clearing the ball probably meant that City's first goal wouldn't of been conceded.
As for Fernando Torres on his own up front he would of just have to chase the defense down for 90 minutes while Liverpool chased a 0-0 draw or a 1-0 victory.
That's how you play against city! That or they just shoot from long range and we get unlucky.
As a City fan, I'll talk about Man City
First off I'll start by saying, I don't post that much on this forum but hopefully those who've seen my posts would know I don't come looking for arguments and try to contribute to threads, but without wanting an argument I've got to say that one thing I don't like is bitter opposition fans and this "D3SiiR3" is clearly bitter and does not have much knowledge of football.
The thing that impressed me most about city's performance is the restraint. It was a unique performance for City and one that had much more of a "we're on the way to the top" feel than, say, the 4-2 v Chelsea. It was our best performance under Mancini and much difference to when we steamrolled the likes of Burnley, Hull, Porsmouth at home.
You could say that's because the score was only 3-0, but the fact is for me it was more impressive than the other matches. Not only because we played here against a better team, but because the performance had restraint and maturity to it. The passing was always sensible and seldom extravagant, the strength of the midfield and defence was used well and for me it was much more than everything clicking, as it was agaisnt Pompey and Burnley. It was all the more impressive considering I do not think the team is anywhere near gelled yet.
The main reasons I think we won are:
A. The use of "inside-out" wingers - on the right, Adam Johnson showed his usual trickery and a bit more, and his performance was made to look a lot better by the fact Daniel Agger was played out of position. Agger is a good player but not suited to left back IMO. On our left Milner did cut in frequently but his work rate and power helped him go down the left flank and cross low into the box on one or two occasions. The fact he had played in the centre for Villa seemed to help as well, because often you could see him drift across and he had moved across to the right when setting up the first goal.
B. The "3 Defensive Midfielders" system - unusually for City, BOTH Barry and Yaya made powerful runs forward to support the attack. I didn't see the Tottenham match so I can't comment on natural width there, balls were distributed out wide which caused Liverpool lots of problems. Then, when on the defence, those two and de Jong dominated Gerrard (who I feel would have had far more effect playing off N'Gog or Torres) and Lucas, who still doesn't seem to have fitted in that well.
C. The defence was strong, and no one switched off - I think we have a talented defence, but several members (Richards, Touré) tend to lose concentration slightly. None of that on Monday night.
Of course Liverpool were poor, and I think Roy got it wrong for that game, but through my blue tinted spectacles this is the one game that made me think "maybe we can do better than 6th this season".
As for Liverpool, I wish them luck as the club has great support, a good manager and does not deserve to be in financial trouble. I tipped them for fourth, and I think that if tactics improve and they manage to buy a few more players before the end of the window they can do well. Unfortunately, Lucas, who will need to play a key role this season, does not look like performing. A lot rests on Poulsen.
Some good posts on this thread, especially Zebedee, really nice to see some intelligent football fans who aren't really bitter
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------
Can I just add - real evidence that Liverpool need natural width. Feel gutted for them over Babel, who could have made a huge difference, but with natural width Liverpool could make a good team great.
First off I'll start by saying, I don't post that much on this forum but hopefully those who've seen my posts would know I don't come looking for arguments and try to contribute to threads, but without wanting an argument I've got to say that one thing I don't like is bitter opposition fans and this "D3SiiR3" is clearly bitter and does not have much knowledge of football.
The thing that impressed me most about city's performance is the restraint. It was a unique performance for City and one that had much more of a "we're on the way to the top" feel than, say, the 4-2 v Chelsea. It was our best performance under Mancini and much difference to when we steamrolled the likes of Burnley, Hull, Porsmouth at home.
You could say that's because the score was only 3-0, but the fact is for me it was more impressive than the other matches. Not only because we played here against a better team, but because the performance had restraint and maturity to it. The passing was always sensible and seldom extravagant, the strength of the midfield and defence was used well and for me it was much more than everything clicking, as it was agaisnt Pompey and Burnley. It was all the more impressive considering I do not think the team is anywhere near gelled yet.
The main reasons I think we won are:
A. The use of "inside-out" wingers - on the right, Adam Johnson showed his usual trickery and a bit more, and his performance was made to look a lot better by the fact Daniel Agger was played out of position. Agger is a good player but not suited to left back IMO. On our left Milner did cut in frequently but his work rate and power helped him go down the left flank and cross low into the box on one or two occasions. The fact he had played in the centre for Villa seemed to help as well, because often you could see him drift across and he had moved across to the right when setting up the first goal.
B. The "3 Defensive Midfielders" system - unusually for City, BOTH Barry and Yaya made powerful runs forward to support the attack. I didn't see the Tottenham match so I can't comment on natural width there, balls were distributed out wide which caused Liverpool lots of problems. Then, when on the defence, those two and de Jong dominated Gerrard (who I feel would have had far more effect playing off N'Gog or Torres) and Lucas, who still doesn't seem to have fitted in that well.
C. The defence was strong, and no one switched off - I think we have a talented defence, but several members (Richards, Touré) tend to lose concentration slightly. None of that on Monday night.
Of course Liverpool were poor, and I think Roy got it wrong for that game, but through my blue tinted spectacles this is the one game that made me think "maybe we can do better than 6th this season".
As for Liverpool, I wish them luck as the club has great support, a good manager and does not deserve to be in financial trouble. I tipped them for fourth, and I think that if tactics improve and they manage to buy a few more players before the end of the window they can do well. Unfortunately, Lucas, who will need to play a key role this season, does not look like performing. A lot rests on Poulsen.
Some good posts on this thread, especially Zebedee, really nice to see some intelligent football fans who aren't really bitter
---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------
Can I just add - real evidence that Liverpool need natural width. Feel gutted for them over Babel, who could have made a huge difference, but with natural width Liverpool could make a good team great.