Manchester United

[Runeaa]

Hi guys!

Maybe this post should be posted in the "post you frustrations" thread but anyway..

Whenever i ask wich tactic i should use with Man United people laugh it of and say that you`ll win with any tactic, its Man United. But i think this years FM has actually caught up with how poor Man United actually is!

Ive tested/tryed most of the most popular tactics on this forum, i allways play with Man United and i havent found a single tactic that really works!

I Really dont like the Wide Midfielder tactics with 4-4-2 setup as it is impossible to find players that can play naturally in this position. Id prefer to play a 4-2-3-1 with maybe 1 IF ( Depay ) and 1 Winger. Also i notice that many of the tactics use BPD but all the center backs ive EVER tryed in this position ( even players like Dragovic, Martinez etc who are naturally BPD ) get horrible ratings!

Is it really so that a direct oriented 4-2-3-1 is not usable anymore in this game? Is the game so advanced now that you have to micro manage everything and change the tactic every match according to wich team you are facing?

The only tactic i had somewhat success with ( before 16.3.0 that is ) is the "Scholes cant tackle" tactic the The Reckonist has made in the Steam workshop, it used to work wonders with United. NOW, even though everyone says no ME changes where made last update, it doesent work at all anymore.

My players keep making stupid mistakes, long balls, dangerous crosses, dont run forward when they can, cant score on set pieces, cant defend set pieces, single striker cant score and the list goes on!

Can anybody, PLEASE, give me some advise how to set up a decent working 4-2-3-1 that would suit the players of Uniteds current squad? Ive tryed many many times myself with just straight up 4-2-3-1 with wingbacks on support, 1 BPD and 1 CB, 1 DLP and 1 BBM, 1 IF, 1 AM, 1 Winger and 1 CF, using direct passes, floating crosses since United dont have any good headers up front, hight creatice freedom as a team with many tecnical players should have and so on.. It normally ends up with quite good results at home but im getting butchered in away games.

All help and advice is very much appretiated as im 1 more unsuccesful save away from deleting this game.

regards

 

[core2FM]

Just a few observations from testing tactics and playing the game in it's yearly iteration from the Championship Manager days.

If you have been successful naturally when you face the same teams again they will be more cautious and the space that was available to exploit is no longer there. Also most tactics that you download from here require a run it team, an acclimatisation time. I tested one tactic which lost 5 straight games, but then won the next 9, most people would have dumped the tactic after those 5 losses.

Another observation I have found is having left and right footed pairs can really help to increase the performance of certain tactics. ie left and right footed central defensive pairing, central midfield pairing, striker pairing if playing two strikers etc.

Also morale, fitness, sharpness and even the hidden mental attributes of your players play a big role in continued success. A general rule of the thumb is to be very demanding for home game, ie I expect a performance etc, and a more cautious approach away from home. Also give the players the hairdryer treatment if performing poorly at home.

If you're getting to the point of no return, stop playing, take a breather, do something and come back with a fresh outlook in a few days.

 

[WJ]

Can anybody, PLEASE, give me some advise how to set up a decent working 4-2-3-1 that would suit the players of Uniteds current squad? Ive tryed many many times myself with just straight up 4-2-3-1 with wingbacks on support, 1 BPD and 1 CB, 1 DLP and 1 BBM, 1 IF, 1 AM, 1 Winger and 1 CF, using direct passes, floating crosses since United dont have any good headers up front, hight creatice freedom as a team with many tecnical players should have and so on.. It normally ends up with quite good results at home but im getting butchered in away games.

All help and advice is very much appretiated as im 1 more unsuccesful save away from deleting this game.

regards

Firstly, if you're creating your own tactic, that 4231 is far too attacking. You NEED two holding midfielders and while a DLP can be counted as one, a BBM definitely can't as he'll get quite far forward. You're sending both fullbacks forward, so those 2 midfielders will then stay in a reserved position to cover the defence and for the fullbacks.

Floating crosses also makes absolutely no sense at all. You yourself admit that they aren't good in the air, so why would you float crosses, where everyone has time to get under the ball? The defenders (who WILL be good in the air) will have all the time in the world to get into position and win the ball.

 

[Runeaa]

Thats exacly what happens all the time WJ, oposition defence is packed when the ball eventually is crossed to my lone striker. Seems also that even when i play with counter mentality they still cant get CCC`s from wingers bombing forward. I also feel that my IF ( Depay ) wants to finish himself rather than pass it to striker and my winger ( Valencia ) hesitates, as he does in real life, to go forward when opportunity is there, and when he does, my striker is never in position. Even when training them to pass and go forward when sensible they dont improve. Rooney obviously is not the optimal AF/CF as he tends to go deep for the ball and Martial seems to finish very poor all the time.

I also tryed playing with an counter mentality, to try and get the fullbacks/wingers to bomb forward when posession was retrived ( i allways have aggresive pressing as this is the way of modern football ) but it just doesent work! I had 63% posession vs leicester on counter and they just destroyed me ON COUNTERS! I try to do the logical thing, i get that floating crosses was a bad idea but im really struggling.

So, according to what you say, should the FB`s be on support maybe? And the wingers aswell? With for exampel a defensive playmaker + ball winning midfielder?

What about the central defenders? Whats a good combination there? back in the day i allways set up Vidic as a Limited defender stopper and Ferdinand as a ball playing defender and this worked very well..

Thanks for response guys.

 

[WJ]

Thats exacly what happens all the time WJ, oposition defence is packed when the ball eventually is crossed to my lone striker. Seems also that even when i play with counter mentality they still cant get CCC`s from wingers bombing forward. I also feel that my IF ( Depay ) wants to finish himself rather than pass it to striker and my winger ( Valencia ) hesitates, as he does in real life, to go forward when opportunity is there, and when he does, my striker is never in position. Even when training them to pass and go forward when sensible they dont improve. Rooney obviously is not the optimal AF/CF as he tends to go deep for the ball and Martial seems to finish very poor all the time.

As I said, you're far too attacking. The Mentality doesn't matter as the role/duty setup is too attacking, I was very specific about changing the BBM.

I also tryed playing with an counter mentality, to try and get the fullbacks/wingers to bomb forward when posession was retrived ( i allways have aggresive pressing as this is the way of modern football ) but it just doesent work! I had 63% posession vs leicester on counter and they just destroyed me ON COUNTERS! I try to do the logical thing, i get that floating crosses was a bad idea but im really struggling.

They destroyed you on counter attacks because you're commit too many players forward. It is really that simple. You need at least 3 players sitting back (you have 2 already - the DCs) and one other reserved player who won't get too far forward.

If you're going to bomb both the wingers and the fullbacks forward (essentially vacating the wings from a defensive point) you will definitely need those two midfielders to be very reserved/defensive.

You admit that the opposition sits deep, so what's the plan with bombing them forward?

So, according to what you say, should the FB`s be on support maybe? And the wingers aswell? With for exampel a defensive playmaker + ball winning midfielder?

I never said that about the FBs.

I did say 2 holding midfielders. A BWM doesn't hold at all and runs like a mad man to close down attackers, leaving gaps behind him. You may be okay if you have another Defend duty next to the BWM/D, but you can't be more aggressive than that.

 

[WJ]

The defender roles aren't complicated. It depends on what you want.

Limited defenders will win the ball and get rid of it/clear it.

Central defenders are just bog standard defenders.

Ball playing defenders are given licence to play 'hollywood' type through balls if they see fit, so they can bypass the midfield sometimes.

 

[Runeaa]

So, if you want fullbacks that go forward you need 2 defensive orientated CM, right? But obviously you want your fullbacks to take defensive responsability aswell, so support/automatic makes more sense? So if i were to set up 2 fullback as wingbacks support and the 2 CM`s as for exampel DLP defend and a CM on defend that would make sense?

 

[WJ]

That would be fine, yes.

 

[Runeaa]

And as i mentioned before, i like to play 1 IF ( depay ) 1 winger ( Valencia, new signing such as felipe ) but i often struggle to get the number 10 to work well together with the striker. Wazza is naturally a shadowstriker, if i were to play him as just that, wich role would be good for the striker? Optimally i would like to have the striker threatning the space behind the oposition defence, getting played through by the number 10 and/or from wingers crossing, is a poacher the best solution? I see many of the tactics on here play with F9`s, wich i never have any success with. Would IF, SS, Winger and a Poacher be a good setup for the front 4?

Appretiate you taking the time WJ, cheers!

 

[WJ]

And as i mentioned before, i like to play 1 IF ( depay ) 1 winger ( Valencia, new signing such as felipe ) but i often struggle to get the number 10 to work well together with the striker. Wazza is naturally a shadowstriker, if i were to play him as just that, wich role would be good for the striker? Optimally i would like to have the striker threatning the space behind the oposition defence, getting played through by the number 10 and/or from wingers crossing, is a poacher the best solution? I see many of the tactics on here play with F9`s, wich i never have any success with. Would IF, SS, Winger and a Poacher be a good setup for the front 4?

Appretiate you taking the time WJ, cheers!

Firstly, get out of the whole 'what's the absolute best and most optimal setup' frame of mind and more into thinking about space.

I say that because there's no logic to what you just posted. You have 2 very reserved midfielders so first of all, if you do use a Shadow Striker, you will need to just make sure that there's not a huge gap between the CMs and the AM. Rooney does have the "Comes Deep" PPM, IIRC, so that may just help though.

The main problem is what you posted next. A Shadow Striker is supposed to make those runs from deep to threaten the space behind the defence. That's exactly his role! Why then would you want a striker to do the exact same thing? Why not have a striker then who drops off or pulls wide to create more space for the SS?

Also, there's a difference between 'the tactics posted here' and what can be a sound, coherent footballing setup. The tactics in the downloads section are plug and play exploit tactics. If that's what you want, then download one, tbh.

 

[WJ]

And as i mentioned before, i like to play 1 IF ( depay ) 1 winger ( Valencia, new signing such as felipe ) but i often struggle to get the number 10 to work well together with the striker. Wazza is naturally a shadowstriker, if i were to play him as just that, wich role would be good for the striker? Optimally i would like to have the striker threatning the space behind the oposition defence, getting played through by the number 10 and/or from wingers crossing, is a poacher the best solution? I see many of the tactics on here play with F9`s, wich i never have any success with. Would IF, SS, Winger and a Poacher be a good setup for the front 4?

Appretiate you taking the time WJ, cheers!

Hope my above advice didn't come off as too harsh. Space is the most important concept on a football pitch, IMO. Once you start thinking about that and watching space in matches, everything changes.

It should become easy after a while. The thinking will be something like "Okay, Shadow Striker attacks the space behind the defence. I can create that space by dragging defenders out of position. So, maybe a DLF who will drop deep and I have him drop into channels at the same time. While that's happening, maybe a Raumdeuter or IF/A also attacking that space. The DLF can then feed those 2, while a Winger/Support can start deeper and by the time he's in position to cross, the IF and SS will be there to challenge for it."

That sort of thing.

 

[Keith Ang]

dlf or even f9 would be good for me. wouldnt mind a cf support role either. but im guessing ya gonna play martial up in the centre or rooney.
if its martial dlf, f9 or cf
rooney i rather go f9 or df

just my 2 cents

 

[Runeaa]

Hope my above advice didn't come off as too harsh. Space is the most important concept on a football pitch, IMO. Once you start thinking about that and watching space in matches, everything changes.

It should become easy after a while. The thinking will be something like "Okay, Shadow Striker attacks the space behind the defence. I can create that space by dragging defenders out of position. So, maybe a DLF who will drop deep and I have him drop into channels at the same time. While that's happening, maybe a Raumdeuter or IF/A also attacking that space. The DLF can then feed those 2, while a Winger/Support can start deeper and by the time he's in position to cross, the IF and SS will be there to challenge for it."

That sort of thing.

It kinda did mate, i must admit.

Im simply just asking for advise.. But i do appreciate you taking the time!

Ive set up a 4-2-3-1 now with 1 BWM and 1 CM support. Front 4 is wingers on support, advanced playmaker on support and a advanced forward up front. Im tired of the IF`s allways choosing to go for the finish, such as Depay so im testing with wingers and it looks ok.

Ive chosen a controll mentality with a fluid team shape as base and i take it from there.. Those roles suit my players fairly well exept maybe Depay who maybe needs abit of training to suit the winger role better..

My concern is my fullbacks. Ive set them to FB support but im unsure if that will work well with my wingers on support. I notice they contribute nicely defensivly but not so much in attack. Any suggestions? Maybe i can mix between support/defend/attack according to oposition?

Thanks again..

 

[Keith Ang]

will recommend either the BWM or CM in a def role and the other support.

my thoughts- ad playmaker on support is ok but with only your adv forward as the target it will be so counter productive.
a little hint (im still testing him out at the same position or somewhat almost the same possible, looks good for the moment), go atk on your wingers and put depay on the RIGHT. yes u hear me- RIGHT. he will tend to cut in less and he will ACTUALLY cross the ball into the box. ofc u cant get rid of his tendency to do a long shots.

As for FB, if u put your wingers on atk then FB on support would be fine and to me that will also give u another reason to put wingers on atk because your AP will have more players and option to pass to.

 

[Runeaa]

Thanks alot for advise mate! Im currently using Depay as a right winger, and he is ON FIRE! youre absolutely right! I trained him as a winger and he is now fully comfortable as a winger ( didnt take very long ) and his crosses is very good!

 

[KingCantona]

I play as Manchester United and use 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 both to good success; 4-2-3-1 is a bad formation imo.
Midfield 3 would consist of DLP-D in the holding role, BBM-S & AP-S
It offers the perfect balance really, then you sign players that fill those attributes
You'll always have 1 midfielder back at all times to thwart the potential counter attacks, and having IF-S either side of the CF-A.
Have the team shape as Flexible, definitely helps