Match Engine

[Lukieboy]

I may be wrong here as this might not be possible, but here I go anyway.

SI introduced the 3D match engine back in FM 2009 (I think) and therefore this is it's fifth year.

What I am struggling to understand is why couldn't they have developed it year on year to the point where it would be virtually perfect by now? It's like they've started from scratch each year and keep having to make major changes through various patches, only to still have a few niggling (and extremely frustrating) issues come the final patch.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying about it. The game is still playable and it's still probably my favourite game at the moment, I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were?

 

[esanahka]

I don't understand the one-game-every-year-policy either, so I can't really say. But I think it's a valid criticism towards whomever is making these grand scale decisions at SI. This year, they say the ME was introduced so there are bound to be problems. Okay, FM14 will have the same ME, most likely most problems will be ironed out by then (or at least by December). Fine. But what about the year after that? A new match engine again, another round of beta testing at release? FM seriously needs some competition.

Full disclosure: I prefer the new ME to FM12's, especially once some major problems it still has have been fixed.

 

[Mike.]

I may be wrong here as this might not be possible, but here I go anyway.

SI introduced the 3D match engine back in FM 2009 (I think) and therefore this is it's fifth year.

What I am struggling to understand is why couldn't they have developed it year on year to the point where it would be virtually perfect by now? It's like they've started from scratch each year and keep having to make major changes through various patches, only to still have a few niggling (and extremely frustrating) issues come the final patch.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying about it. The game is still playable and it's still probably my favourite game at the moment, I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were?

This is not the same match engine as 5 years ago. It is totally different and far more complex

 

[Mike.]

I don't understand the one-game-every-year-policy either, so I can't really say. But I think it's a valid criticism towards whomever is making these grand scale decisions at SI. This year, they say the ME was introduced so there are bound to be problems. Okay, FM14 will have the same ME, most likely most problems will be ironed out by then (or at least by December). Fine. But what about the year after that? A new match engine again, another round of beta testing at release? FM seriously needs some competition.

Full disclosure: I prefer the new ME to FM12's, especially once some major problems it still has have been fixed.

The whole competition thing is nonsense. It had two competitors, one no longer even makes games and the other is Fifa Manager. Its already destroyed both of them

 

[marabak]

This is not the same match engine as 5 years ago. It is totally different and far more complex

I think that is the point the OP was making. Rather than keeping with the same ME and slowly perfecting it, they keep scrapping the old one to start afresh.

I can understand that maybe there were limitations with the first ME etc. but surely a company this big with this much selling power (and frankly and endless amount of saleable goods as we will keep buying it year on year), would have enough foresight to design a ME that could be tinkered and perfected rather than started afresh each time.

Disclaimer: I quite like the FM13 ME to be honest, it's more difficult than previous versions (and the injuries are staggeringly high) but overall it is more fun to have a little bit of a challenge. It shouldn't be easy to take a non-league team into the Prem like it has been before. The only criticism I have with the game is a lack of randomness at the start of each game, meaning that people all end up buying the same players for the same amounts and everyone ends up with the same team. Regens obviously change this further into the game though.

 

[Mike.]

I think that is the point the OP was making. Rather than keeping with the same ME and slowly perfecting it, they keep scrapping the old one to start afresh.

I can understand that maybe there were limitations with the first ME etc. but surely a company this big with this much selling power (and frankly and endless amount of saleable goods as we will keep buying it year on year), would have enough foresight to design a ME that could be tinkered and perfected rather than started afresh each time.

Disclaimer: I quite like the FM13 ME to be honest, it's more difficult than previous versions (and the injuries are staggeringly high) but overall it is more fun to have a little bit of a challenge. It shouldn't be easy to take a non-league team into the Prem like it has been before. The only criticism I have with the game is a lack of randomness at the start of each game, meaning that people all end up buying the same players for the same amounts and everyone ends up with the same team. Regens obviously change this further into the game though.

Because the old one literally could no be taken any further. That's why it was scrapped.

Its like having a Ford Focus, you can tweak and tinker, but it will only go so fast, as it's still a Ford Focus.

Eventually you have to go and buy a Bugatti Veyron.

They have had foresight, and designed a new one that can be taken further year on year, that's exactly the point of the FM13 engine. They started on this before FM12.

 

[Lukieboy]

This is not the same match engine as 5 years ago. It is totally different and far more complex

I thought it probably was, glad you've answered my question(s). At least I now know why the ME still makes me want to tear my hair out.

 

[Lukieboy]

I think that is the point the OP was making. Rather than keeping with the same ME and slowly perfecting it, they keep scrapping the old one to start afresh.

I can understand that maybe there were limitations with the first ME etc. but surely a company this big with this much selling power (and frankly and endless amount of saleable goods as we will keep buying it year on year), would have enough foresight to design a ME that could be tinkered and perfected rather than started afresh each time.

Disclaimer: I quite like the FM13 ME to be honest, it's more difficult than previous versions (and the injuries are staggeringly high) but overall it is more fun to have a little bit of a challenge. It shouldn't be easy to take a non-league team into the Prem like it has been before. The only criticism I have with the game is a lack of randomness at the start of each game, meaning that people all end up buying the same players for the same amounts and everyone ends up with the same team. Regens obviously change this further into the game though.

I agree as the actual gameplay is ok on the ME, it's just the rather frequent stupid act one of my players commits that is the real problem. I understand that glaring mistakes are made in reality by top players, it's just not so often at the top level.

 

[Mike.]

I thought it probably was, glad you've answered my question(s). At least I now know why the ME still makes me want to tear my hair out.

I think people get the 3D graphics and the match engine mixed up.

FM12 was a more polished engine, as you expect as that was its 3rd year (First debued in FM10). FM13 is arguably less polished, but significantly more advanced, expect to see it really shine in FM14 and beyond.

 

[esanahka]

The whole competition thing is nonsense. It had two competitors, one no longer even makes games and the other is Fifa Manager. Its already destroyed both of them

I don't understand what is exactly nonsense about it? That it was better than two that this is be-all and end-all? That you do not smell a whiff of complacency in SI? You must work for them, or maybe you own some stocks, I don't know
I still think it would be better if some other company, preferably one with a pedigree in strategy games (Paradox maybe?) would come along and offer their interpretation of the genre, because I remember the excitement that was when the first FM came out, and seemingly SI had really that "let's show 'em" edge because of break-up with Eidos and everything. FM gameplay is gathering a lot of things that "are just they way they are and have been for some years" for no apparent reason (team talks, long shots, set pieces etc), and this for me says that someone could come along and do things differently.

As for the longevity of this ME, it's still pretty obvious that graphically it is not exactly top notch, which means that it will look very dated in a few years time. Yes, I know that many FM players don't care (I don't), but I believe SI does. So I would be very surprised if they hadn't designed a new, shiny ME for the FM16 at latest.

 

[Mike.]

I don't understand what is exactly nonsense about it? That it was better than two that this is be-all and end-all? That you do not smell a whiff of complacency in SI? You must work for them, or maybe you own some stocks, I don't know
I still think it would be better if some other company, preferably one with a pedigree in strategy games (Paradox maybe?) would come along and offer their interpretation of the genre, because I remember the excitement that was when the first FM came out, and seemingly SI had really that "let's show 'em" edge because of break-up with Eidos and everything. FM gameplay is gathering a lot of things that "are just they way they are and have been for some years" for no apparent reason (team talks, long shots, set pieces etc), and this for me says that someone could come along and do things differently.

As for the longevity of this ME, it's still pretty obvious that graphically it is not exactly top notch, which means that it will look very dated in a few years time. Yes, I know that many FM players don't care (I don't), but I believe SI does. So I would be very surprised if they hadn't designed a new, shiny ME for the FM16 at latest.

They havent changed how they do things even when they had a competitor... Adding a new competitor would do almost nothing. No but I regularly talk to people who do work with/for them, so I actually know what I'm talking about

The bold actually makes no sense. If they were not pushing it, why would take the risk of creating a new engine? Its much of a risk to create a new one than stick with the old. And the things about set pieces and longs shots/ team talks isn't even true, you just made that up!

The game comes out every year, but many of the things in it take more than a year to develop.

And you seriously underestimate how complex this game is. Its one of the hardest games to game in the industry. Given that a rival team who created it, cant even make manager games any more, what the **** makes you think someone can walk in and suddenly know how to do it?

For a competitior to actually be any kind of use, they have to immediately match SI's level. Only the delusional would that that is possible.

And nope the graphics are typically the least of their concerns for a myriad of reasons. From licensing to pushing up the graphic demands, when they know a significant part of they game base plays on lower scale machines.

Again match engine has nothing to do with graphics so the last part about FM16 doesnt make sense.

 

[esanahka]

They havent changed how they do things even when they had a competitor... Adding a new competitor would do almost nothing. No but I regularly talk to people who do work with/for them, so I actually know what I'm talking about

The bold actually makes no sense. If they were not pushing it, why would take the risk of creating a new engine? Its much of a risk to create a new one than stick with the old. And the things about set pieces and longs shots/ team talks isn't even true, you just made that up!

The game comes out every year, but many of the things in it take more than a year to develop.

And you seriously underestimate how complex this game is. Its one of the hardest games to game in the industry. Given that a rival team who created it, cant even make manager games any more, what the **** makes you think someone can walk in and suddenly know how to do it?

For a competitior to actually be any kind of use, they have to immediately match SI's level. Only the delusional would that that is possible.

And nope the graphics are typically the least of their concerns for a myriad of reasons. From licensing to pushing up the graphic demands, when they know a significant part of they game base plays on lower scale machines.

Again match engine has nothing to do with graphics so the last part about FM16 doesnt make sense.

I don't know how to respond. If you feel I'm making things up by saying long shots have not been broken or almost in FM for about the past 4 years, or that team talks are well implemented in this game then, well...let's just say we look at this game (not talking about FM) at a different angle then. And to you developing a new match engine is taking risks, when you release a game every single year, and you have fanbase of 20 years? Seriously? To create a new ME from scratch and not release a game one year, that would have been a risk of some sort.

I also don't think you should overestimate the work that goes into developing a product such as FM. Calling it one of the hardest games in the industry seems pretty strange to me. I'm a computer science major myself, I admit I have not coded anything as grand as FM, but it's essentially a statistics machine, with lots of stuff left to random, or seemingly random with probabilities. Don't say do a better one then, because I won't, but to me it seems that there is a small market, or then there would be more competition. It's not that the game is insanely difficult to develop, sorry for saying it bluntly.

I really hope that FM16 will use the same ME, with lots and lots of refinement and it will be really, really good by then. But I also know it is a naive wish.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I think the part about the coding of FM being very difficult and hard to get correct is something that has been brought up an several occasions. Basiclly, established and highly competent with great renomes have said that its much, much more complexe than anything they have ever seen when it comes to computer games. Just look at something like the closing down + marking + positioning of a player on the pitch. The amount of variables that will have a direct or an inderect effect on how they should act on the field in these situations are just monstrous. Get one one them incorrect, and it will have knockon effects on other behaviour on the pitch.

 

[ajt09]

I really don't see what the problem is here. We all know this is the best version by far. With the risk of repeating what's been stated numerous times, FM 12 was broken all over the shop. I thought I was awesome at it-but comparing both versions a few months back it was so obvious what was wrong with it-bugs, exploitations, unrealistic events. We've all seen players running through each other.

This version is without doubt the trickiest because SI gave us what we wanted-realism. And it's there in abundance. the majority hated it at first because of "success" in FM 12. But when they saw the flaws in the game, they accepted the fact SI went out of their way to make this a vastly improved product to cater not only for the hardcore players (such as myself) who wanted it to be more of a challenge, but also for casual players who didn't have time for a full career mode. Yes there are a still a few things that can be improved, but IMO this ME is the best yet and is performing as it should be. There's going to be some strange results when the top teams should be absolutely destroying "smaller" clubs or lower league clubs but that's another part of the realism-the unexpected happens. Which is what football is all about-shocks and surprises. You only have to look at Celtic v Barca IRL to see it.

these kind of games are very hard to do codewise-it takes a **** of a lot of work and effort, and IMO they've done sterling work. And I look forward a lot for the next FM. Couldn't care less about the graphics personally. Gameplay>graphics any day of the week in these games for me. Nice graphics is an added bonus. As long as it's realistic, has a good UI and is easy to grasp I'm happy as larry. though the instructions should come in a manual for the future-it would make things easier.

 

[Mike.]

I don't know how to respond. If you feel I'm making things up by saying long shots have not been broken or almost in FM for about the past 4 years, or that team talks are well implemented in this game then, well...let's just say we look at this game (not talking about FM) at a different angle then. And to you developing a new match engine is taking risks, when you release a game every single year, and you have fanbase of 20 years? Seriously? To create a new ME from scratch and not release a game one year, that would have been a risk of some sort.

I also don't think you should overestimate the work that goes into developing a product such as FM. Calling it one of the hardest games in the industry seems pretty strange to me. I'm a computer science major myself, I admit I have not coded anything as grand as FM, but it's essentially a statistics machine, with lots of stuff left to random, or seemingly random with probabilities. Don't say do a better one then, because I won't, but to me it seems that there is a small market, or then there would be more competition. It's not that the game is insanely difficult to develop, sorry for saying it bluntly.

I really hope that FM16 will use the same ME, with lots and lots of refinement and it will be really, really good by then. But I also know it is a naive wish.

I'll be quick and to the point. Its known across the industry as one of the toughest and most complex games to code. Its gone long beyond being a simple statistics machine. Just coding the flight of the ball goes way beyond just chucking in numbers.

They did create a new ME... they have done, repeatedly over the last 15 years.

No, to create a new ME and not release for a year isn't a risk, its financial suicide. They would have had to lay people off to do that. That's no exaggeration. You would have to cut the number of people working if they didn't release a game.

Considering that its one of the best selling PC games each, there is a massive market. Its also incredibly difficult.

Long shots have been broken once, by the 13.2.2 patch. They have never been broken an any other point.

Morale/team talks had one major issue, in 12.04.

FM16 wont use a new ME unless the current one cannot achieve what they need it to do, Its really that simple.

 

[Mike.]

I think the part about the coding of FM being very difficult and hard to get correct is something that has been brought up an several occasions. Basiclly, established and highly competent with great renomes have said that its much, much more complexe than anything they have ever seen when it comes to computer games. Just look at something like the closing down + marking + positioning of a player on the pitch. The amount of variables that will have a direct or an inderect effect on how they should act on the field in these situations are just monstrous. Get one one them incorrect, and it will have knockon effects on other behaviour on the pitch.

Indeed, nothing works in isolation, you cant "fix" something in the ME in isolation.

For example, most people dont realise the long shot bug in 13.2.3 was actually nothing to with long shots at all, or coding down the numbers. It was the decision making around when to pass and run, that was broken.

 

[Lukieboy]

Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up .

 

[Mike.]

Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up .

Haha, no it was a good question. It just doesn't work that way. SI will always be behind the footballing curve as well, due to the nature of development. Good example is the way busquets drops right into the D line. You cannot properly implement this in FM13, but it is something they are trying to develop into the match engine.

 

[esanahka]

I'll be quick and to the point. Its known across the industry as one of the toughest and most complex games to code. Its gone long beyond being a simple statistics machine. Just coding the flight of the ball goes way beyond just chucking in numbers.

They did create a new ME... they have done, repeatedly over the last 15 years.

No, to create a new ME and not release for a year isn't a risk, its financial suicide. They would have had to lay people off to do that. That's no exaggeration. You would have to cut the number of people working if they didn't release a game.

Considering that its one of the best selling PC games each, there is a massive market. Its also incredibly difficult.

Long shots have been broken once, by the 13.2.2 patch. They have never been broken an any other point.

Morale/team talks had one major issue, in 12.04.

FM16 wont use a new ME unless the current one cannot achieve what they need it to do, Its really that simple.

Flight of the ball is difficult now? That's basic physics, projectile motion, in earth conditions even. Even if you account for the magnus effect etc, it cannot get very complicated, unless you are doing something incredible.

Similarly when I thought about this, about how would I make a ME, I think SI have made their life a bit difficult maybe themselves. I mean they have given so much room from the sliders to the player to tinker, and all of that has to be taken into account. Of course it's a remnant from the olden days for sure, and since I don't know the insides of the code it's hard to say how much lighter it would become were it done differently.

But I love FM, so I don't want to argue.

 

[Mike.]

Flight of the ball is difficult now? That's basic physics, projectile motion, in earth conditions even. Even if you account for the magnus effect etc, it cannot get very complicated, unless you are doing something incredible.

Similarly when I thought about this, about how would I make a ME, I think SI have made their life a bit difficult maybe themselves. I mean they have given so much room from the sliders to the player to tinker, and all of that has to be taken into account. Of course it's a remnant from the olden days for sure, and since I don't know the insides of the code it's hard to say how much lighter it would become were it done differently.

But I love FM, so I don't want to argue.

But actually coding it into a game, is very difficult. You see it when you get some of the quirky ainimations. Glad you mention the Magnus effect. That's why FM12's ME was dropped. It could not be properly implemented, along with other physics issues.

The sliders are a remnant fromm the old days, when the engines where much simpler, but the issue is the TC as it stands isn't complex enough to remove them without limiting players choice. (customising run for individual players etc) That is the next big step. SI have made things a bit tough for themselves, and in some ways for us, but in the current state removing them would be a step back.

Debating is good, at the end of the day, we both want it going in the same direction. Upwards.