my 4231 doesnt seem to work

[anfieldheroez]

Hi guys, i am using a 4231 system on Liverpool and i used the same system on FM 14 and 15 and i used to get results and i always had some fight in the team ie the players were getting shots in, midfield had control. but now i can hardly get any attacking football going, i concede too many, and my passing is always ******** up. I saw the full match and my defenders and MCs always just play long balls up.

I will attach the screenshots and i would really appreciate your feedback in helping me where to improve and what i am doing wrong. Cheers everyone!

 

[callamity]

you mean your playing such an aggressive closing down tactic and your team isnt in the right shape for the defense to have someone to pass to?

 

[anfieldheroez]

that's what i thought as well like 1- if everyone closes down ,then the person who wins the ball for me- who is he gonna pass to if everyone is closing others around right? but like i said- in the previous versions of fm, the player who had won the ball could always keep it for a second and look for someone and pass it to him. right now the ball just gets booted forward. i understand where you are coming from and i did think about it too but i think thats like the gegenpressing style i was trying to achieve. thanks for the input though i really appreciate it!

 

[callamity]

that's what i thought as well like 1- if everyone closes down ,then the person who wins the ball for me- who is he gonna pass to if everyone is closing others around right? but like i said- in the previous versions of fm, the player who had won the ball could always keep it for a second and look for someone and pass it to him. right now the ball just gets booted forward. i understand where you are coming from and i did think about it too but i think thats like the gegenpressing style i was trying to achieve. thanks for the input though i really appreciate it!

The ME plays different this year from previous years. TheRe are a lot that has been fixed that stops the old way of playing over aggressive and winning just because. In the 4231 your cm pair act as holding players so you need them to be in the right place to protect your defence. It isn't really the best idea to have them on very aggressive closing down.

 

[anfieldheroez]

i understand. how do you think i can improve my tactics and PI and OI?

I was thinking closing down just the AMC,AML,AMR,ML,MR,STC now. but then i think that the MCs can be creating chances too and if i can close them down and rob em off the ball then i can have my AML,AMR ready to pounce and go on the counter attack.

Also, i am still pretty confused as to use Inside forwards or wingers or have one each?

 

[garethjenks]

my passing is always ******** up. I saw the full match and my defenders and MCs always just play long balls up.

I think this is because you have your mentality set to Attacking. This is basically instructing your players to get the ball up the pitch as fast as possible therefore bypassing the midfield and reducing the chance of neat inter-play. Try scaling back to control or even standard and see what happens.

 

[anfieldheroez]

sure will try that now!

 

[meandurr]

I am Liverpool and after much tweaking I have found a tactic that is working for my players.

I suggest you try to do a little less than you currently are, there is a lot of conflicting instructions in the screenshots you shared.

I'm attaching two screenshots - this team just beat Utd 5-0 and is top of the league in January, it is key to give each player specific instructions, for instance, I'm telling my attacking players to close down but my defenders never to close down (because I want them playing a high line). Similarly, I have my wide forwards sitting narrow because I want my fullback staying wide and providing the width.

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[Conn]

Great work Meandurr!

Miles said that this season player roles would be more important, so what you are stating is making a lot of sense, keeping the player instructions much more individual

 

[daniel2300]

@meandurr

Thank you VERY much, I haven't quite nailed it yet but your information about the importance of PI seems to point me in the right direction.. I try to get a 4-2-3-1 work with United so I can't/won't just copy yours but the concepts you explained seems to alter things more into what I want them to do.. To be honest, I have been really frustrated with FM16 and sometimes just thoughts about give it up.. I know its not just like put up a 4-4-2, pres play and then you will win most games if you're better than your opponents (as Man Utd fx.) but I find this a little to hard to get around.. The fact that the players can't make a decent pass or hold on to the ball without losing it all the time, constantly making stupid decisions, running around like headless chicks and chase opponents and never ever get in some sort of control of the games no matter who we met just drove me insane! The goals I made were more like coincidence and rarely great play through goals while I on the other hand saw nearly all my opponents play more or less perfect.. I know theres arguments that the ME is the same for AI teams as it it for you but I just think that the difference in player quality somehow also should effect the game.. But hopefully I now can get my team to perform more like I want them to and then start enjoying all the other aspects of the game I yet haven't.. Thank you again..

 

[Tanju]

@meandurr

Your tactic is working great ! Thank you for sharing. Can you share Firmino's instuructions, please ? My player in same position is not playing well, thats the only problem for me.

 

[anfieldheroez]

thank you for the advice! so sorry for the late reply as i was away for abit. i tried it and there are differences for sure, but shorter passing seems to work better than direct. problem is my team somehow always defends deep despite the settings at normal and they let the opposition work with the ball and do not make any attempts to tackle. still trying to work around that.

 

[anfieldheroez]

i got back to playing the game recently after getting some free time. I still have the same problems. I can't have any control in midfield, i cant create chances and my players are all isolated and just not doing much to win the ball, or attack as a team. I have tried fluid,very fluid and structured and what not. nothing ever works.


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[WJ]

iI can't have any control in midfield, i cant create chances and my players are all isolated and just not doing much to win the ball, or attack as a team.

Well, with that setup, how are you looking to create chances? Who's creating them, how and for who?

You seem to be doing fine going forward though?

 

[anfieldheroez]

my idea was that the bbm will provide support and run with the ball, passing it to the inside forwards and playing the striker in etc. then the ap will look to create chances when he has possession, with the bbm (if) forward or the inside forwards and striker. the full backs to provide width and the dmc to break up opp attacks. that was my idea but i cant get it to work anyway though. i dont get any possession and i get bombarded with opp shots.

 

[WJ]

my idea was that the bbm will provide support and run with the ball, passing it to the inside forwards and playing the striker in etc. then the ap will look to create chances when he has possession, with the bbm (if) forward or the inside forwards and striker. the full backs to provide width and the dmc to break up opp attacks. that was my idea but i cant get it to work anyway though. i dont get any possession and i get bombarded with opp shots.

BBMs don't really run with the ball and they make (late) runs forward. For the most part, the BBM and AP will be in line as they both have Support duties in the same strata.

So scenario 1: BBM has the ball and passes it to the Inside Forwards. Then what?

Scenario 2: BBM plays striker "IN", meaning through ball? This won't happen because you've reduced through balls and the BBM then will only pass to feet.

Scenario 3: AP will "create chances". What does that mean? He regularly has the DLF straight ahead to aim for and he might try the occasional through ball, if it's on. Are the Inside Forwards advanced enough to be played "IN" or how is he creating chances for them? As said previously, the BBM (check this in a match) will largely be right next to the AP.

Fullbacks 'providing width', usually just means that they're a passing option wide before playing it back in. Your fullbacks will bomb forward, overlap with the IFs and cross. Is that what you wanted?

The DM will try and break up quick attacks, but is required to cover both flanks during an attack. It's risky as you have an attacking mentality that makes players take more risks than 'normal'. Usually, someone has to be either with him or close enough to help defend against attacks. Both your CMs will be just outside the box and both wingbacks even further forward. Who's helping the DM?

 

[anfieldheroez]

u make excellent points! ok so for scenrio 1- i thought that the inside forwards will try beat their man, and cross to the ctr or to the dlf or interplay with the wingbacks.

scenario 2- bbm was supposed to play to the striker,or the inside forwards or attacking wingbacks or the ap. like those were his passing options- at least that was my idea and what i wanted to do but it didnt work out.

scenario 3- you are right there. i wanted him to do his thing and pass to players further forward or to those who are unmarked etc,let it be the inside forwards,bbm or striker or even the attacking wingbacks.

as for the dm- do you think if i put my wingbacks on support it might help getting cover for the dm during opp attacks?

and what do you think i can try adjusting for the earlier mentioned scenarios?

 

[WJ]

u make excellent points! ok so for scenrio 1- i thought that the inside forwards will try beat their man, and cross to the ctr or to the dlf or interplay with the wingbacks.

Okay, keep in mind that whoever will cross then, will have only really the DLF to aim for.

scenario 2- bbm was supposed to play to the striker,or the inside forwards or attacking wingbacks or the ap. like those were his passing options- at least that was my idea and what i wanted to do but it didnt work out.

He'll probably pass to all 4, but keep in mind that he's not going to play through balls with the instructions you have. The passes will be to their feet, so it'll be up to them to create something.

scenario 3- you are right there. i wanted him to do his thing and pass to players further forward or to those who are unmarked etc,let it be the inside forwards,bbm or striker or even the attacking wingbacks.

Okay, but as I said, check whether the forwards are advanced enough.

as for the dm- do you think if i put my wingbacks on support it might help getting cover for the dm during opp attacks?

You have an attacking mentality. Even on support, wingbacks will get quite far forward. Either a midfielder needs to be given a slightly less aggressive role (or told to "Hold Position") or you basically need a FB/S or WB/D.

I'm not taking PPMs into account as I don't know what they are but you need to be aware of them though!

Your closing down settings are heavy, so you'll need to keep an eye on how your team is closing down, whether it's too much maybe. Cleon here had heavy closing down as well and went for the option of only having 3 back: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/451062-The-Art-of-Attacking-Football

It was specifically mentioned here: http://community.sigames.com/showth...g-Football?p=10702979&viewfull=1#post10702979

You need to see if there are weaknesses in how you close down.

 

[anfieldheroez]

thanks buddy i really appreciate your help. just a couple of other things:

1. you mentioned for scenario 2 "He'll probably pass to all 4, but keep in mind that he's not going to play through balls with the instructions you have. The passes will be to their feet, so it'll be up to them to create something."

What do you mean by the instructions i have? do you recommend i change something and if so what do you think i can do to improve?

2.as for the crosses having only the dlf to aim for- isnt that when the bbm will make runs into the box and the ap as well attacking the box? if i put the ap to an attack duty, and with the bbm advanced, my midfield will be screwed. how do u think i can improve here?

3.and how do i know if everyone is forward enough? from the match, everyone seems deep despite my instructions to be advanced?

4. overall, how do u think i can further improve my game and tactics? and the retain possession, working ball into box options- are they something i might need to implement as well?

 

[WJ]

1. you mentioned for scenario 2 "He'll probably pass to all 4, but keep in mind that he's not going to play through balls with the instructions you have. The passes will be to their feet, so it'll be up to them to create something."

What do you mean by the instructions i have? do you recommend i change something and if so what do you think i can do to improve?

Retain Possession. It lowers tempo, shortens passing for the entire team and reduces through balls/passes into space.

2.as for the crosses having only the dlf to aim for- isnt that when the bbm will make runs into the box and the ap as well attacking the box? if i put the ap to an attack duty, and with the bbm advanced, my midfield will be screwed. how do u think i can improve here?

For the first part of your question, they might, but it depends on how quickly you move it forward. Attack duties bomb forward. Support duties will make runs, but will choose when. So see if the Support duty players you expect to help out in the box are doing that. Otherwise, work the ball forward slower by either shortening passes (to be less direct) or to Lower Tempo, which increases the time each player has on the ball.

3.and how do i know if everyone is forward enough? from the match, everyone seems deep despite my instructions to be advanced?

You look? Who did you tell to be advanced all the time? You have the DLF and the wingbacks.

4. overall, how do u think i can further improve my game and tactics? and the retain possession, working ball into box options- are they something i might need to implement as well?

By watching matches to see if want you want happening, is happening.

You can't ask me if you need TIs. Look to see if you need them? I've told you what Retains Possession does. Work Ball Into Box will reduces long shots and crossing. If you need that, add it. Add TIs based on what you see you need. Otherwise it is pointless and you could end up harming the tactic more than improving it.