Need some tactical analysis/advice

[Seano]

I've always struggled with developing tactics, never really got to grips with it.I usually try , get to the first 10 games in the season and if it doesn't go my way i usually quit.

I've taken a prolonged break from Football Manager for the last 3 months, never really had time for it, but finally get some time to play and i actually have the hunger to play.

I've started a save with Aston Villa. I had a great pre-season, beating the likes of AC Milan so i thought i was onto a great tactic, but i've played 5 competitive games and have struggled and it's frustrating. I'm tweaking them slighty whenever i see a re-occuring problem, but that always leads to a new problem. It's like an endless cycle.

I'm looking for some help with breaking down the tactics to see where i'm going wrong. Here's a few screenshots of the season so far.

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As you can see, i had a decent pre-season. Now i don't usually pay attention to the friendlies but i mean, it succeeded in most matches against decent opposition. Here's a breakdown of all the competitive matches so far.

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As you can see, most of my efforts were outside the box. I'm struggling to make any clear cut chances or get into their penalty area which results in long range efforts, which puzzles me when i look at my set-up which i'll post later. Both their goals came from over the top long balls, which is a re-occurring issue for me so i'd love some insight in this.

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Again, when you compare the two shot-analysis you can see that i was limited to long range efforts whereas they found it easy to get into my penalty area which cost us.

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Again with the long-range efforts. Both their goals came from in and around the 6-yards, they seem to get the ball into that area fairly simply

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Finally a win but the lack of the chances is shocking. Was lucky to win.

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Here's my formation/tactics and instructions. I don't see anything that would stop me from creating chances. Playing wide, using the flanks , looking for overlaps should all point towards plenty of space no? Working the ball into the box should stop my long range efforts no? Not really sure if the tempo would be the culprit along with the Direct passing. I press more to stop them getting in behind me with the long balls, but it's not working.
I use Direct Passing because the board have it as a philosophy.

I don't see anything wrong with the roles/positions either. I don't have any Player Instructions.

Any help would be greatly appreciate. If anything else is needed, i'll gladly oblige.

 

[WJ]

First, I want to get this out of the way: Do not use pre-season as a way of measuring your tactic by results. The AI uses it as it should be (half the reason anyway) and that is to build match fitness for the season ahead. They do not really care about pre-season results so the players and the AI manager won't be giving their all.

The only other function pre-season has, is to check that your tactic functions the way it should. That means checking that players are in space, that you don't have multiple roles trying to use the same space and getting in each other's way. Checking that there are enough players attacking the box. That you have enough cover at the back during transitions. etc etc etc.

-----

You've set up very, very aggressively, both with and without the ball. You're Villa. That's a big source of your problems. Attacking mentality + front 3 all on attack duty + higher than the already high default tempo for Control + higher than the already high closing down for Control is very attacking for a team such as yours. Then you also have a BWM (S!!!) as a "holding" midfielder and he will chase the ball down, so you will have a big, big hole right in front of your defence that will cause you endless problems.

As you're the weaker team, you also need to keep an eye on the AML and AMR on attack duties and if they contribute enough defensively or if you want to risk it and have them stay up for the counter attack.

I'd actually question most of your TIs too and why you've selected the ones you have?

 

[Seano]

Thanks for the input.

I never really paid attention to the Pre-season results usually so i know what you mean.

I've jotted down a couple of ideas.

I've switched the DM to an anchor man, which should stop him from chasing the ball and to just provide some protection for the back four. I've changed the mentality of the 2 wingers to support.

In terms of instructions. I've unticked the "Close down more" and "Higher Tempo".

I'll try it for a few matches and hopefully get some results.

How are my positions/roles set-up in your opinion?

 

[WJ]

Are you sticking with Control? Why? Not saying it's wrong necessarily, but I'm trying to understand your thinking and intended way of playing.

How are my positions/roles set-up in your opinion?

I think I'll answer that question with a question. How do you think your setup is? What's your vision for how you want to play?

Things like where/how you want to win the ball back. Are you going to press high up? Drop deep and keep shape? Dive into tackles? Don't over-commit and wait for the right moment to tackle? What do you do with the ball then; keep possession? Play direct and on the counter? Middle? Flanks? Will you look at anyone specific to pull the strings and supply the middle/flanks? Are you expecting crosses which Benteke might head in? Dribbling through the centre and play through balls for the striker and/or wingers? etc etc

There are so many questions to answer and most of them will be easy when you have a vision of how you want to play. Obviously try and use players' strengths while doing so.

 

[WJ]

I'll also ask this separately as I see it a lot. Why have you selected Look For Overlap? What's the intention there?

 

[Seano]

Are you sticking with Control? Why? Not saying it's wrong necessarily, but I'm trying to understand your thinking and intended way of playing.

Well, i want to control the game. Even though i wouldnt have one of the better teams in the league, i want to be able to control the games, control the ball, create chances and score goals.

I think I'll answer that question with a question. How do you think your setup is? What's your vision for how you want to play?

Looking at it, i like how it looks. I have an anchor man who sits infront of the defence providing cover whenever the opposition go on the counter and the rest of my midfield are tracking back. An Advanced playmaker who i'm looking to play through, ideally my best midfielder who will create most of my chances. A central midfielder(s) who offers support on the attack but doesnt push to far forward.

Things like where/how you want to win the ball back. Are you going to press high up? Drop deep and keep shape? Dive into tackles? Don't over-commit and wait for the right moment to tackle?


What do you do with the ball then; keep possession? Play direct and on the counter? Middle? Flanks? Will you look at anyone specific to pull the strings and supply the middle/flanks?

Ideally i want to win the ball in the middle of my half, and from then i can use the space behind the opposition to launch direct passes onto Benteke who can then bring the 2 wide players into the game(Perhaps change to a Target Man(s)?). I want to pass it around quickly making most of the space while its there. With that being said i should look at a Counter strategy rather than a control? I want to take advantage of the pace and width that i have in Agbonlahor and Grealish but at the same time, i want to AP to charge down the middle whenever an opportunity arises, so ideally he would be the one pulling the strings, perhaps i should change his mentality to support or even a DLP?

Are you expecting crosses which Benteke might head in? Dribbling through the centre and play through balls for the striker and/or wingers? etc etc

Only on the one side. With Agbonlahor's pace, i'll be hoping to whip in the crosses on that side so Winger(s) should be fine?

Look for the Overlap?
Again, to open up as much space as possible, with the two fullbacks going up the flanks, it'll pull the oppositions defence further apart, opening up space? With that being side, with Grealish set as an IF, it goes against his role so i guess it's ineffective on his side.

 

[WJ]

Well, i want to control the game. Even though i wouldnt have one of the better teams in the league, i want to be able to control the games, control the ball, create chances and score goals.

You also need to be realistic. You're one of the weaker teams in the league. You aren't going to control the majority of the games. That still doesn't explain Control though. It's the mentality just below attacking. It's still a fairly high risk mentality with fairly high D-line and closing down.

Looking at it, i like how it looks. I have an anchor man who sits infront of the defence providing cover whenever the opposition go on the counter and the rest of my midfield are tracking back. An Advanced playmaker who i'm looking to play through, ideally my best midfielder who will create most of my chances. A central midfielder(s) who offers support on the attack but doesnt push to far forward.

That sounds decent enough - you have a plan and you put that plan into action by selecting the roles you did. The CM/S will more than likely support your AP/A more than the attack though, but if that's what you want, then you're fine.

Ideally i want to win the ball in the middle of my half, and from then i can use the space behind the opposition to launch direct passes onto Benteke who can then bring the 2 wide players into the game(Perhaps change to a Target Man(s)?). I want to pass it around quickly making most of the space while its there. With that being said i should look at a Counter strategy rather than a control? I want to take advantage of the pace and width that i have in Agbonlahor and Grealish but at the same time, i want to AP to charge down the middle whenever an opportunity arises, so ideally he would be the one pulling the strings, perhaps i should change his mentality to support or even a DLP?

You'd need to watch the matches to see if you're winning the ball back as intended. That may need some fine-tuning.

I like that you're thinking about your intended way of playing. Target Man would do as you said, they'll get the ball to him. Playing direct will get it to him quickly, so watch matches and see that he has support when he does get the ball.

It does sound like you're favouring a counter attacking strategy with what you're describing.

Any playmaker role (as I'm sure you know) will attract the ball more than the other roles although it'll vary depending on your instructions when there's a Target Man too. The AP/A will sit higher and run with the ball often, looking for through balls. The AP/S will sit deeper (but still obviously advanced) and won't run with the ball that much. The DLP will drift around in the middle, looking for space and distribute the ball when he gets it. It depends what you'd want to do. Both could work.

Only on the one side. With Agbonlahor's pace, i'll be hoping to whip in the crosses on that side so Winger(s) should be fine?

W/S will do that, as the description also says. Stay deeper than a W/A, receive the ball, get past his man and whip in a cross.

Look for the Overlap?
Again, to open up as much space as possible, with the two fullbacks going up the flanks, it'll pull the oppositions defence further apart, opening up space? With that being side, with Grealish set as an IF, it goes against his role so i guess it's ineffective on his side.

This is the first concern so far. If you want the fullbacks to bomb up the flanks, why not just give them Attack duties? By having the Attack duties on both AML and AMR (as you had it) and Support duties on the fullbacks, you're not encouraging any overlaps. What that instruction also does to encourage overlaps, is asking your AML/AMR to sit narrower and to hold up the ball - to wait for the overlapping fullback. Is that what you want?

Grealish's role naturally cut inside anyway, so that automatically opens space on the wing for a fullback even without the instruction.

 

[Seano]

You also need to be realistic. You're one of the weaker teams in the league. You aren't going to control the majority of the games. That still doesn't explain Control though. It's the mentality just below attacking. It's still a fairly high risk mentality with fairly high D-line and closing down.

Thats true, despite how i want them to play, i'mnever going to be able to control every game with the resources i have. I'll drop it down to Counter to see how it, and adjust the closing down/D-Line accordingly in the matches.

You'd need to watch the matches to see if you're winning the ball back as intended. That may need some fine-tuning.

Will do.

Any playmaker role (as I'm sure you know) will attract the ball more than the other roles although it'll vary depending on your instructions when there's a Target Man too. The AP/A will sit higher and run with the ball often, looking for through balls. The AP/S will sit deeper (but still obviously advanced) and won't run with the ball that much. The DLP will drift around in the middle, looking for space and distribute the ball when he gets it. It depends what you'd want to do. Both could work.

Going to try a AP/s along with a CM/s to see how it goes. Sitting forward, getting the ball and offloading it accordingly sounds more appealing than running at the defence. For now anyway.

This is the first concern so far. If you want the fullbacks to bomb up the flanks, why not just give them Attack duties? By having the Attack duties on both AML and AMR (as you had it) and Support duties on the fullbacks, you're not encouraging any overlaps. What that instruction also does to encourage overlaps, is asking your AML/AMR to sit narrower and to hold up the ball - to wait for the overlapping fullback. Is that what you want?

Grealish's role naturally cut inside anyway, so that automatically opens space on the wing for a fullback even without the instruction.

I see, with having "Look for Overlap" selected, my Wide-Players are coming in towards the centre, even though the fullbacks aren't going to get that far forward. Thus, limiting the space and inviting pressure. If i set-up with a IF/s and a W/s, get rid of the Look for Overlap, then the left back will naturally go into the space the IF is leaving behind?

If i have both fullbacks set as FB/A and the wingers on Support, that would warrant the Look for Overlap instrutction? With that being said i don't to expose my defence too much with bombarding full backs, but with an anchor man it could work?

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[WJ]

I see, with having "Look for Overlap" selected, my Wide-Players are coming in towards the centre, even though the fullbacks aren't going to get that far forward. Thus, limiting the space and inviting pressure.

Exactly. They'll go narrower with the fullbacks pushing up a little, but not actively looking for the overlap. The instruction will decrease the wingers' mentalities and increase the fullbacks' but it might not be as much as you think. The logic (I thought) of setting the front 3 all to attack, would have been to storm forward (mostly on the counter, but in general too) hoping to exploit gaps in the defence before they get set. I'm not a fan of doing it, but I can see the logic in wanting that. Look for Overlap will tell the wide players (2 of the front 3!) to hold up the ball, so ruining that fast attacking intent.

If i set-up with a IF/s and a W/s, get rid of the Look for Overlap, then the left back will naturally go into the space the IF is leaving behind?

He'd have the space to run into, yeah. I'm not sure if he'd do it on a Support duty though.

If i have both fullbacks set as FB/A and the wingers on Support, that would warrant the Look for Overlap instrutction? With that being said i don't to expose my defence too much with bombarding full backs, but with an anchor man it could work?

Both AML/AMR on Support and DL/DR on Attack will already achieve an overlap. The only difference is that the AML/AMR won't sit narrower (though you can alter it via PIs) and they won't hold up the ball to feed the overlapping fullback.

Thanks for all the help so far.

No problem. I enjoy discussions like these when the other person uses his brain too.

 

[Seano]

Exactly. They'll go narrower with the fullbacks pushing up a little, but not actively looking for the overlap. The instruction will decrease the wingers' mentalities and increase the fullbacks' but it might not be as much as you think. The logic (I thought) of setting the front 3 all to attack, would have been to storm forward (mostly on the counter, but in general too) hoping to exploit gaps in the defence before they get set. I'm not a fan of doing it, but I can see the logic in wanting that. Look for Overlap will tell the wide players (2 of the front 3!) to hold up the ball, so ruining that fast attacking intent.

Ah i see, so i'm better off getting rid of the instruction all together and achieve a natural overlap without having to hold up the play(which would in theory, create an overlap without holdup play that would disrupt my fast-counter style)

As for Benteke - if i set him up as a Target-Man, would i be correct in saying that he should be set on Attack Duty? Considering my two wingers are on support duty. So that when long balls are pumped into him he'll contribute with flick on to the wide players and then continue as far forward as he can get. Or would A TM/s , IF/A and a Winger/s work better? With the IF cutting in the TM will naturally look to him as an outlet or will they just get in each others way. How would you look to set them up?

No problem. I enjoy discussions like these when the other person uses his brain too.

It's great to be able to bounce ideas off people and learn something new.

 

[WJ]

Ah i see, so i'm better off getting rid of the instruction all together and achieve a natural overlap without having to hold up the play(which would in theory, create an overlap without holdup play that would disrupt my fast-counter style)

Exactly. If you're going to put both on Attack, just make sure you have enough cover against counter attacks yourself. Against some formations or even just the bigger, better teams with better players 1v1 and more aggressive forward runs may be a challenge and the 2x DC and A/D combo may not be enough.

As for Benteke - if i set him up as a Target-Man, would i be correct in saying that he should be set on Attack Duty? Considering my two wingers are on support duty. So that when long balls are pumped into him he'll contribute with flick on to the wide players and then continue as far forward as he can get. Or would A TM/s , IF/A and a Winger/s work better? With the IF cutting in the TM will naturally look to him as an outlet or will they just get in each others way. How would you look to set them up?

That would depend again on how you want to play.

As a TM/S he'd drop a little to receive the ball, either from clearances by defenders or from your playmaker. From there, he'd probably pass it wide and try and get into the box for the cross.

As a TM/A, he'd be less involved in the build up play. He may still collect clearances that go into the channels and from there attack directly. Otherwise, build-up play should go through your playmaker and then wide, ready for the wingers to cross to him already waiting in the box.

Your TIs will influence both of these, but that'd be the general idea based on the roles you have right now.

This is the sort of thing that friendlies are so useful for. To decide what you want to do and then to see if it's actually happening. For example, if you see balls getting lumped to the TM/A too often (considering he won't drop deep to collect), just add exploit flanks. That way your wingers will be more involved before whipping in crosses. It's for that reason that I start with a "vanilla" tactic or the bare, bare minimum of instructions when setting up a new tactic. I'll add instructions only when I see an issue constantly cropping up and it's fixable with a TI.

 

[callamity]

great read lads

 

[Seano]

As a TM/S he'd drop a little to receive the ball, either from clearances by defenders or from your playmaker. From there, he'd probably pass it wide and try and get into the box for the cross.

As a TM/A, he'd be less involved in the build up play. He may still collect clearances that go into the channels and from there attack directly. Otherwise, build-up play should go through your playmaker and then wide, ready for the wingers to cross to him already waiting in the box.

Ah i see. I'll probably go for a TM/s then so. I want him to come deeper to collect clearances and long balls, offload it to the wingers/playmaker and carry on to the front of the attack for the crosses. This way i'm not depending on the playmaker the whole time, which suits Villa as i don't have a player who can perform well enough in that role.

Your TIs will influence both of these, but that'd be the general idea based on the roles you have right now.
This is the sort of thing that friendlies are so useful for. To decide what you want to do and then to see if it's actually happening. For example, if you see balls getting lumped to the TM/A too often (considering he won't drop deep to collect), just add exploit flanks. That way your wingers will be more involved before whipping in crosses. It's for that reason that I start with a "vanilla" tactic or the bare, bare minimum of instructions when setting up a new tactic. I'll add instructions only when I see an issue constantly cropping up and it's fixable with a TI.

Ah i see. Instead of changing a players role to change things up, look to the TI's to offer more options. In the scenario you posted, if there are a lot of long balls pumped up to the TM who isn't going to collect, with the Exploit Flanks TI, the defence would look the flanks before opting to lump the ball to the TM. I never thought about it like that.

I'm going to think long and hard about it tomorrow and start a new save with Villa and at least then i can start a pre-season, set up the team the way i've talked about tonight without any TI's, or at least the bare minimum and tinker around with them until i get a system i'm happy with.

Thank you very much! I'll no doubt have a few more ideas to bounce off you this time tomorrow, but for now your help has been very much appreciated. I'll keep you up to date with how i fair out!

 

[WJ]

Always keep the system as a whole in mind though. If you have Benteke and the 2 wide players all on Support, nobody will be a threat with penetrating runs, making you very one-dimensional. If you do want to persist with Benteke as a TM/S and Gabby as a W/S, think about a Raumdeuter or IF/A on the opposite side. That gives Benteke two options when collecting long balls. Either supply Gabby before charging into the box waiting for the cross or supply through balls to the IF/A.

 

[Seano]

Always keep the system as a whole in mind though. If you have Benteke and the 2 wide players all on Support, nobody will be a threat with penetrating runs, making you very one-dimensional. If you do want to persist with Benteke as a TM/S and Gabby as a W/S, think about a Raumdeuter or IF/A on the opposite side. That gives Benteke two options when collecting long balls. Either supply Gabby before charging into the box waiting for the cross or supply through balls to the IF/A.

I forgot to mention that i switched the IF to an Attack duty.
I had a good think about it last night and re-thought my formation and roles.

Counter & Fluid

Benteke (TM/s)
Grealish(IF/A) Agbonalahor(W/S)
Cleverley(BWM/s) Delph(DLP/s)
Sanchez(DM/D)
Alex Grimaldo(FB/A) Vlaar(CB/D) Okores(CB/D)Bellerin(FB/A)
Guzan (GK/D)
​

From an attacking perspective, when we win the ball back, the team will look to play the ball too the AP, while the Full Backs run down the wing, offering the AP with two options, go down either flank or play through Benteke. The Full Backs will look to cross into Benteke and nod them home. Whereas, if the AP chooses to play through Benteke, then Benteke will look to play Agbonalahor down the right wing, which will give Benteke the chance to head for the box, or play Grealish through, who will attack the box, pick a pass or have a pop if the opportunity arises. While the Full backs are bombing the wings, Sanchez will cover them, and if the opposition do get a break then at least, both my CM's won't be too far up the pitch.

Cleverley will look to win the ball back high up the pitch and can afford too with Delph sitting Deeper and Sanchez back there aswell. When he does win the ball, he'll look to the DLP, who will then distribute to Benteke or the flanks.

At first glance it looks like a pretty logical set-up. The only thing i'm not sure about is whether to Switch BWM to Defense Duty and go back to a AP/s instead of DLP/s and the team Shape, but i'll play a few games to see how it goes. I've left the TI's bare, bar for the More Direct Passing for now.

Initial thoughts?

 

[WJ]

First thought was BWM for Cleverley?! Not sure that suits him.

You'd have to watch the More Direct instruction. On Counter mentality, the defence will already be direct with your front players having shorter passing. You may be setting yourself up so direct that you're bypassing the playmaker completely and going straight to Benteke.

Also, ideally, you'd want an Attack/Support/Defend duty split in your midfield 3. Since you're one of the weaker teams, you'll have enough space to exploit on the counter for you to get away with that. It might be an issue against similar strength teams where you will lack penetration but keep an eye on it.

You seem to know exactly how you want to play and that's great. From now on it's a matter of seeing whether it's working as intended and maybe fine-tuning where needed.

 

[Seano]

First thought was BWM for Cleverley?! Not sure that suits him.

Yeah, doesn't really suit him but i was looking to the balance in the whole team rather than individual role, will look at someone who can fill this duty or switch to a different role.

You'd have to watch the More Direct instruction. On Counter mentality, the defence will already be direct with your front players having shorter passing. You may be setting yourself up so direct that you're bypassing the playmaker completely and going straight to Benteke.

Ahh , i didn't realise that the Counter mentality encouraged a more direct passing so i'll leave that unselected for now and play around with it.

Also, ideally, you'd want an Attack/Support/Defend duty split in your midfield 3. Since you're one of the weaker teams, you'll have enough space to exploit on the counter for you to get away with that. It might be an issue against similar strength teams where you will lack penetration but keep an eye on it.

makes sense, i'll leave the BWM on Support and change the DLP to an AP on Attack to see how it works.

You seem to know exactly how you want to play and that's great. From now on it's a matter of seeing whether it's working as intended and maybe fine-tuning where needed.

I've always wanted to play a certain way and had an idea how to set it up, but i didn't realise that the Mentality directly effects how the team will pass, defend and attack to the extent that it does, so when i was changing a TI or a player role thinking i was fixing things, i was really just contradicting the system.

 

[WJ]

Don't worry about it. You're definitely not alone in having a decent enough setup but making it potentially worse with the TIs. It seems to be a very common issue.

 

[Seano]

I read before, the less PI's the better for your system, perhaps the same can be said on the TI's. Depending on the match and system you're up against of course.

Thanks for all your help. You've definitely opened up my eyes to the whole tactical aspect of things.

I'll keep you up-to-date!

 

[WJ]

You can have as many TIs or PIs as you want - IF you know what you're doing and know exactly why. Most don't, tbh. They tack it on without even seeing the tactic in action.

I usually start with 0-2 TIs and often 0 PIs when creating a new tactic. My finished product can have anything from 4 to 12 TIs depending on what was needed for them to play the way I wanted.

Personally, I only use PIs to fine-tune a role or two. So I'd only have 1 or 2 roles with specific PIs and then it's only 1 or 2 PIs each.