Player roles vs tactic

[chris1428]

"If you're a new or returning player from year's past, the importance of Football Manager's player roles might pass you by. Each player in FM 2018 has a set of favoured roles and duties, and playing them in these roles will help get the most out of their abilities. This a major element that must be considered when developing tactics, as players who are given unsuitable roles will likely prove ineffective on the pitch."

That's all what I've found about it. I have a question concerning it. If I came to manage new team and I haven't had money for transfers... Should I use a good tactic, or should I let every player play his best role? Have any of you tested or read about test with 11 players playing some tactic, but not being 100% at that role vs playing formation with every player playing his best role? What was more effective?

 

[dreamofasgard]

Thats all about what you want, i think. For example, If you want to play 433 attacking system for long years you can start playing with that tactic and let some players become used to it. Maybe it wont make you win the title or make you happy but its the tactic which you want to see and you will find some players who can play with that tactic in years. But if you want to win the title in that year or if you dont have any tactical system on your mind just let the players play with their best roles. It will make your team successful in short term. First option will make your team successful in long term.

 

[Wigo15]

mate 100% percent go for the GOOD TACTIC! its the same for last 5 years probably! even if all your 11 players on red circle in tactic screen dont worry! focus on 2 things - player atributes and tactic! thats it...

 

[chris1428]

I can't agree with you because I've won 7-1 against Newcastle using Tottenham now, after changing roles to 9-10/10. 4-2-3-1 wide, 2 full backs attack, 2 ball playing defenders - defend option, 1 deep laying playmaker defence MCR, 1 advanced playmaker support MCL, 1 advanced playmaker attack AMC, 2 inside forwards support and 1 target man attack. All tactics say - don't use 3 playmakers in the middle - it worked here.

 

[dreamofasgard]

Dont challenge yourself with Newcastle when you are Tottenham dude. Play with Man Utd or Man City and then if you're happy then its ok.

 

[Wigo15]

Dont challenge yourself with Newcastle when you are Tottenham dude. Play with Man Utd or Man City and then if you're happy then its ok.

exactly!

 

[Bigpapa42]

That's all what I've found about it. I have a question concerning it. If I came to manage new team and I haven't had money for transfers... Should I use a good tactic, or should I let every player play his best role? Have any of you tested or read about test with 11 players playing some tactic, but not being 100% at that role vs playing formation with every player playing his best role? What was more effective?

Think about it like you are a real manager. You are going to tell you side how you want them to play. "Okay, boys, we are just going to go out there and win as a team by individually doing whatever we do best. Wayne, you like to chase the ball, so just chase it all over the ****ing place. Frank, you really just lump the ball long so do that, even if there is no reason and no one to chase it. Rick, you just like to run up and down the touchline aimlessly, so go there and do that.".

How exactly is that "a tactic"? How do you expect that to work successfully? Now there is a small chance that telling the players to "do what they do best" (literally, their best-rated roles) might work out. But most of the time, you have a hot mess that does nothing coherently.

The players "best roles" are absolutely not absolutes in FM. They are the game interpreting their skills. You can be very successful creating a tactic where not one single player is in their "best" role, so long as the overall tactic fits together and the players have the skills to the role they are being asked to. The game highlights the key attributes for a given role, so you can see what is needed and whether your player might do well in it. But the key is being logic and coherent with how you want each player to function in your tactic. Don't use a Ball Winning Mid if you want to prioritize a tight defensive shape. Don't use attacking wingbacks or Complete Wingback roles if you want your wide defenders to defend first. Its just basic logic, not being a tactical guru.

I use players outside their "best roles" all the time. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. In some cases, I'm retraining players to new positions entirely. In my current save, my top three wingers are all strikers who have been retrained to be ML or MR. They are imperfect but they do well enough, and are regularly amongst my top-rated performers. The only natural winger I have is now being used exclusively as a DR (even though he had zero ability to play there initially) because of need.

 

[chris1428]

I see... then maybe I should test it by myself. I guess you're right because I'm not winning every match.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I see... then maybe I should test it by myself. I guess you're right because I'm not winning every match.

Just be thoughtful and logical on piecing it together. Then watch and tweak. That's key with any tactic.

I realize the following statement you quoted can be a bit misleading:

as players who are given unsuitable roles will likely prove ineffective on the pitch.

But there is a difference between "not ideally suited" and "not at all suitable". Not all suited is when you try to make your purely-defensive, hard-man midfielder into a playmaker. Or a prototype lower-league fullback (practically a central defender) and ask him to do the "Dani Alves role". Those are going to fail, for very obvious reasons. But if you have a well-rounded midfielder who the game says works best as a DM or Anchor Man, because their defensive attributes are their strongest, he could still work as a midfield playmaker if he has the appropriate passing/attacking/playmaking skills at an adequate level. This is where you need to look at the player and their attributes, then what role you want to use them for an make an assessment. That's being the manager.

 

[chris1428]

I've done a lot of tests and I've found this tactic the most effective:
Full Backs - Auto, Central Defenders - Defend
DLP - Def BWM - Def
IF or Wingers - Support
Attacking Midfielder - Attack
Complete Forward - Attack

The main problem is finding good Ball Winning Midfielder. I don't know why, but most of the best Midfielders are Playmakers. Finding Central Midfielder or Ball Winning Midfielder is a big headache, but if I'm not using CM or BWM with Def duty, I'm losing too many goals. I've tried 2 Deep Laying Playmakers on Defend duty etc. but it doesn't work.

 

[Snorks]

I've done a lot of tests and I've found this tactic the most effective:
Full Backs - Auto, Central Defenders - Defend
DLP - Def BWM - Def
IF or Wingers - Support
Attacking Midfielder - Attack
Complete Forward - Attack

The main problem is finding good Ball Winning Midfielder. I don't know why, but most of the best Midfielders are Playmakers. Finding Central Midfielder or Ball Winning Midfielder is a big headache, but if I'm not using CM or BWM with Def duty, I'm losing too many goals. I've tried 2 Deep Laying Playmakers on Defend duty etc. but it doesn't work.

BWMs seem in short supply in this version of the game. But you can get them if you find a player with the right attributes.

The Green Disc familiarity indicator is just that - an indicator. I like to try and build a tactic around the players and familiarity, nbut don;t pay too much mind to it if it doesn't fit.

I have Liverpool at the moment, Milinkovic-Savic and Keita in MC, one plays as Mezzala one as Box2Box - both are best suited to Mez role apparently.

If I play a 4123, Henderson sits deep as the 'ball winner', but this maybe with a different role - DLP maybe, and Keita becomes a Roaming Playmaker - Savic is either Mez or B2B if I feel I need mnore defensive cover in the middle.

My Full backs are, in the 4231, always FB-S, even though Gomez's preferred is DFB, and Robertson a WB, in the 4123 their roles change depending on the wide man in front of them.

Undefeated so far in the league, one draw with SPurs and one defeat in Euro against Valencia.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I don't think the issue is lack of Ball Winnings Mids. There are quite a few players with the required key attributes. It comes back to what I said before - the role ratings in-game can be misleading. A BWM requires relatively few primary attributes, and almost all of them apply to other roles. Both the DM and MC versions. So if a player has the perfect skillset for BWM, but one or two extra attributes, the game might "rate them" instead as a Defensive Midfielder or Anchor Man. Doesn't mean they wont' do fantastic as a BWM, though. The same thing is true of Central Mid - its fairly generic and players who fit it will also likely "rate" at other roles.

 

[Snorks]

I don't think the issue is lack of Ball Winnings Mids. There are quite a few players with the required key attributes.

I was meaning that the game doesn't indicate (green discs) as many BWMs, the pint being you can find players for them if the attributes suit the role - even if the game indicates they are a DLP for example.

 

[chris1428]

Okay guys! You were right. I don't care about player best roles anymore and it works. I improved my tactic because it sucked sometimes. I'm highly surprised with results but it's well balanced so it really works.
DL DR = FB (At)
2x DC = CD (De)
2x MC = CM (De)
AML AMR = 2x IF (Su) or 2x Winger (Su) - my 2nd 11 has 2 wingers
AMC = AM (Su)
STC = AF (At)
Full Backs are really important part of this formation because they are getting a lot of assist, and defenders connected with central midfielders are really good at defending. Playmaker is unnecessary.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I was meaning that the game doesn't indicate (green discs) as many BWMs, the pint being you can find players for them if the attributes suit the role - even if the game indicates they are a DLP for example.

Yup, that's what I was getting at as well. And a key part of why I keep mentioning that you cannot just rely on the green discs on any thread like this. It seems like a lot of FMers treat them as absolutes.

When I was looking at the roles the other day, I think it was Anchor Man that shares most attributes with Ball Winning. Think BWM has Stamina while Anchor Man has Heading. So you might have a player who is a PERFECT BWM.... but if they also have strong Heading (which isn't uncommon in defensive mids), the game might say they are better as a Anchor Man. Not really accurate, but its just the game trying to interpret the skillset.

Okay guys! You were right. I don't care about player best roles anymore and it works. I improved my tactic because it sucked sometimes. I'm highly surprised with results but it's well balanced so it really works.
DL DR = FB (At)
2x DC = CD (De)
2x MC = CM (De)
AML AMR = 2x IF (Su) or 2x Winger (Su) - my 2nd 11 has 2 wingers
AMC = AM (Su)
STC = AF (At)
Full Backs are really important part of this formation because they are getting a lot of assist, and defenders connected with central midfielders are really good at defending. Playmaker is unnecessary.

Good to hear things are working better. And switching roles here and there can adjust how things function. Like switching back and forth between Wingers and IF. Not just based on the players you are playing, but the opposition and how you want to attack them. Simple change can be significant.

The bolded is one of the most important aspects of any tactic. A tactic doesn't have to be perfect or free from any weaknesses. But if its balanced, it can compensate reasonably well.