Potential Ability Increasing

[wkdsoul]

What limits? How am I limited? Who decids these arbituary limits? How do you quantify a persons ability? How do you quantify a persons potential?

That where the accuracy of the scouting, research and development team come into play. They try to be as accurate as they can when judging how far a play can go, in most instances it higher than the player will ever reach. It changes each game as more information is gathered and tools are implemented to make information as good as it can be, as well as all player ages being increased.

The figure given is attainable in a perfect career based on game time, facilities, training coach/management and injuries.

A player gaining skills are learning faster are more reflective of a players development curve, ie rooney reaching his PA at 22. rather than a changing PA. Players learn at different rates, but scouting/information tries to guess how far a player can go if given the right/perfect time/management etc.

I can see a point for a decreasing potential, as a player gets older he is less likely to ever attain the potential figure given when he was 18/generated. Ravel Morrison probably an example in real life.

 

[Danwolf]

Limits. Physical/mental/talent limits. If we weren't limited in some way, EVERY Barcelona/Madrid player would be Messi/Ronaldo. Why aren't they?

I have a maths brain. I'm not artistic. I never have (and I've tried) so my PA there is low. My brain isn't developed in that way.

But how old are? And it goes back to nature/nurture. Depending on your environment and how much you apply yourself you can do pretty much anything. Of course it works both ways as a lot of people don't fulfill any potential and how around with the wrong people/have a terrible attitude.

That where the accuracy of the scouting, research and development team come into play. They try to be as accurate as they can when judging how far a play can go, in most instances it higher than the player will ever reach. It changes each game as more information is gathered and tools are implemented to make information as good as it can be, as well as all player ages being increased.

The figure given is attainable in a perfect career based on game time, facilities, training coach/management and injuries.

A player gaining skills are learning faster are more reflective of a players development curve, ie rooney reaching his PA at 22. rather than a changing PA. Players learn at different rates, but scouting/information tries to guess how far a player can go if given the right/perfect time/management etc.

I can see a point for a decreasing potential, as a player gets older he is less likely to ever attain the potential figure given when he was 18/generated. Ravel Morrison probably an example in real life.

Ravel is the perfect example of that . I think PAs should at least have a bit of leaveway to get up or down. Like if a player constantly has bad form, his PA has got to drop, where as if he's consistent and winning PoM etc it should go up.

 

[WJ]

That where the accuracy of the scouting, research and development team come into play. They try to be as accurate as they can when judging how far a play can go, in most instances it higher than the player will ever reach. It changes each game as more information is gathered and tools are implemented to make information as good as it can be, as well as all player ages being increased.

The figure given is attainable in a perfect career based on game time, facilities, training coach/management and injuries.

A player gaining skills are learning faster are more reflective of a players development curve, ie rooney reaching his PA at 22. rather than a changing PA. Players learn at different rates, but scouting/information tries to guess how far a player can go if given the right/perfect time/management etc.

I can see a point for a decreasing potential, as a player gets older he is less likely to ever attain the potential figure given when he was 18/generated. Ravel Morrison probably an example in real life.

Tbh, we can argue about if PA exists IRL or not (it's obvious what I think) but as a game term, it's good and simple.

Onto your post, most arguments I've seen over the years, complain about PA. PA is fine (IMO ). It's player development that needs an upgrade to reflect real life more. The system as it is, doesn't allow for late bloomers quite as dramatically as you see IRL. It's also very easy to get players to reach their potential in FM - something which is obviously not easy IRL. Again, that's CA development, not PA.

 

[WJ]

I can see a point for a decreasing potential, as a player gets older he is less likely to ever attain the potential figure given when he was 18/generated. Ravel Morrison probably an example in real life.

Ravel's potential hasn't decreased though. He's very talented and has potential - I think that much is clear to everyone. What lets him down is his attitude/personality which will see him not reaching that potential.

 

[wkdsoul]

Ravel's potential hasn't decreased though. He's very talented and has potential - I think that much is clear to everyone. What lets him down is his attitude/personality which will see him not reaching that potential.

I can see the point of if being implement as dropping down as time goes on, will Ravel still be potentially that figure at 30?

But i can follow the system as is, i agree on the player development angle.

 

[WJ]

I can see the point of if being implement as dropping down as time goes on, will Ravel still be potentially that figure at 30?

But i can follow the system as is, i agree on the player development angle.

In the game, he will still have a high potential at 30. Problem is, he'll be 30 so even if he becomes impressively driven, it's too late to reach his full potential.

 

[epic terrorist]

Limits. Physical/mental/talent limits. If we weren't limited in some way, EVERY Barcelona/Madrid player would be Messi/Ronaldo. Why aren't they?

I have a maths brain. I'm not artistic. I never have (and I've tried) so my PA there is low. My brain isn't developed in that way.

And I appreciate you have a maths brain but that still doesn't negate the fact that you can't just label someone as having"X" potential. Intelligence and ability just does not work that way.

As for everyone being able to play for Barcelona or Real is a bit of a strawman because that is not what I am saying. I am applying it to the real world and every day ability. I will give you an example, i work with disabled adults, a service user I support was told by a speech and language therapist that they would never be able to communicate due to his level of Autism. I and other staff have taught this service user Makaton and he now communicates well and his quality of life has vastly improved. By your model he would never be able to improve but surely his PA to talk in game terms increased there?

Also in game if the model worked then back in what FM 05 or 06 I think Messi was a what -7 or -8 he is now the best player in my opinion to have played the game. If the model worked then why has his PA exceeded that?

Edit I am at uni be back on later

 

[WJ]

As for everyone being able to play for Barcelona or Real is a bit of a strawman because that is not what I am saying. I am applying it to the real world and every day ability. I will give you an example, i work with disabled adults, a service user I support was told by a speech and language therapist that they would never be able to communicate due to his level of Autism. I and other staff have taught this service user Makaton and he now communicates well and his quality of life has vastly improved. By your model he would never be able to improve but surely his PA to talk in game terms increased there?

In game terms, that's PPA. The person here always had the potential to be able to improve that much, it's just extremely difficult to reach the PA peak, or in this case the chances were slim, but in some cases possible. The game is "god". The doctors were the staff, who could be wrong.

 

[WJ]

In my opininon it should be put into the game. It would give so much more to players who like to play with lower league teams. Raise up your own players. Even when they have starting PA as 100, they could go upto maybe even only 130. Getting lot of playing time, better facilityes and so on would help him to develope and let us see the same like in real life Southampton or the best example Vardy.

It can vary on so many things. Player mental stats, add some hidden atributes, training facility level, playing time, game raiting, coaches. Combinition of these things would give some kind of PA boost.

Managing lower league teams, you must buy so many better players while you go up in the leagues. And in the end overhaul your hole team. But why not, that 1-2 guy who is very determined and plays so good, he could could come from lower leagus to Prem and be clubs legend. It would add a lot to the game.

But yeah, implement this into the game in a fair way would be very hard.

All of this (again) is CA and development of CA.

FWIW, some lower league players are that good that you can take them with you.

 

[PatrickLFC]

Potential is the absolute best you could ever possibly be if everything went right. I think the issue is more to do with how easy it is for a player to reach their potential than the PA not being flexible.

 

[Danwolf]

All of this (again) is CA and development of CA.

FWIW, some lower league players are that good that you can take them with you.

They wouldn't in terms of the game as most LLP only have a PA of at most 115.
When a baby is born are they immediately given a potential of what they can be? Our bodies and our minds are forever changing and adapting. Just because you aren't talented in a particular skill set doesn't mean you can't become better or become the best at it. With the right environment around you, with the right attitude and encouragement you can exceed any potential given to you.
The greats weren't great because at birth they could paint. The greats were great cause they paint a lot.

Potential is the absolute best you could ever possibly be if everything went right. I think the issue is more to do with how easy it is for a player to reach their potential than the PA not being flexible.

I kind of hit on that slightly in terms of if a player is just sat on the bench/unsettled a lot/constant bad form than they shouldn't really progress and over a long term that persons PA should decrease (and CA) as they're not really playing.

It's near impossible to gauge a persons potential as the world is full of miraculous achievements.

 

[Keith Ang]

For the sake of the game I would say that they should make pa non static but it should be extremely hard to increase or decrease his pa. It might not be as in real life per say (argumentative I would put it) for some ppl like wj but it is for some. My point is when u do this then all the pa that are listed out in the internet will not make the game as stagnant as it is now. Yes I know there will be argument saying then don't look at spoilers and etc. But look it this way, when u have a dynamic pa then it makes it interesting for all to actually try and groom a player to be world class. Then all the spoilers won't be too much of a spoilers. If u get what I mean. Hey nothing is set in life unless u set it. TBH I believe potential can be further extend and u are not stuck with just a static potential. Just like how a player's CA that can be increased which is not only solely based on his PA. To me that's why we have great players like messi and Ronaldo which surpasses their PA

 

[wkdsoul]

Thats why the game has a youth coaching/recruitment figure (for players at the club before 15), players into your lowest academy team are being moved up from a non seen u10-u14 system.

The better your youth coaching and recruitment the better the graduates, they are graded on what the coaches have seen, they arent walking into your club at 16.

 

[WJ]

They wouldn't in terms of the game as most LLP only have a PA of at most 115.
When a baby is born are they immediately given a potential of what they can be? Our bodies and our minds are forever changing and adapting. Just because you aren't talented in a particular skill set doesn't mean you can't become better or become the best at it. With the right environment around you, with the right attitude and encouragement you can exceed any potential given to you.
The greats weren't great because at birth they could paint. The greats were great cause they paint a lot.

Now we're back to saying if you do it enough, you'll be world class. I kind of agree with the existing players maybe given room for development, but depending on age, personality and facilities, they could get a CA boost. It won't happen often though, as per real life.

I kind of hit on that slightly in terms of if a player is just sat on the bench/unsettled a lot/constant bad form than they shouldn't really progress and over a long term that persons PA should decrease (and CA) as they're not really playing.

It's near impossible to gauge a persons potential as the world is full of miraculous achievements.

I don't think you get PA. PA cannot decrease. You always have that limit - the best you could ever be, if conditions were perfect. If a player is benched or doesn't perform well, he shouldn't gain much CA and would be far less likely to reach his PA.

The problem is that in the game (for humans anyway) it's far too easy to get players to reach PA.

 

[Danwolf]

Now we're back to saying if you do it enough, you'll be world class. I kind of agree with the existing players maybe given room for development, but depending on age, personality and facilities, they could get a CA boost. It won't happen often though, as per real life.

Not even if it's often but 1 in 100 players who have the right environment and are doing the right things in games should be able to have a increase in potential. Especially if they've met whatever potential that was set.

I don't think you get PA. PA cannot decrease. You always have that limit - the best you could ever be, if conditions were perfect. If a player is benched or doesn't perform well, he shouldn't gain much CA and would be far less likely to reach his PA.

The problem is that in the game (for humans anyway) it's far too easy to get players to reach PA.

PA does decrease in FM just on very rare circumstances with a bad injury.

P.S. wasn't meant to start a debate, but it's an interesting conversation

 

[WJ]

Yeah, I said it earlier as well... injury (very bad one) is the only thing that can make it decrease, but that's all. If you don't develop, you don't. That doesn't affect PA... you just didn't reach your PA.

 

[Dynamo_ZahnZee]

I'd like to see PA be seen as a threshold limit. It's not the peak rather the point at which it's unlikely you can improve further. But in exceptional circumstances, with a lot of hard work, you can push past it.

Anyone can be world class, but don't confuse 'anyone' with 'everyone'.
The main problem I have with PA is that my scouts have a look at 10 players and I get 10 reports all with similar CA but their PAs will all be different. CA is how they are right now, and if they are all similar right now, what exactly did my scouts see to make them think he could one day be a World Cup winner; that did would not indicate a higher CA?

I'd like to see scouts only be able to predict PA to a certain degree. A 15 year old who's not in the first team regularly should have displayed nothing that implies he'll be world class in 5 years time. If you look at real life, one things every single world class player has was they were spotted early since they made themselves stand out. They were better than their age grade and forced their way into the first team. They had had a high enough CA to make people think their PA could be higher.


What I'd like to see in game: The higher a players CA, the more accurate a scouts opinion of his PA is. It's fine tuning. You can't know how good a player will be until he's nearly there. Scouting is just a giant guessing game but in FM, there's a relative safety in trusting your scouts. I've never liked that.

 

[alexdesouza]

I would like it if my current reserves, not regens, can make it but most are -6 or something. It's annoying and really, really unrealistic. Bale is a prime example. I watched his career closely from Southampton onwards and if a single person tells me that he was going to progress the way he did I will call that person a liar. Same with Cristiano. If you train the players well, if you're careful with which games they play and which ones they don't (i.e. if you play them in easier games and they get 8s and 9s) then there should still be room for progression. The current system is too one dimensional for me.

Player progression and contract negotiations are unrealistic in my eyes and even in IRL terms because they've been proven wrong time and time again.

 

[Dynamo_ZahnZee]

I would like it if my current reserves, not regens, can make it but most are -6 or something. It's annoying and really, really unrealistic. Bale is a prime example. I watched his career closely from Southampton onwards and if a single person tells me that he was going to progress the way he did I will call that person a liar. Same with Cristiano. If you train the players well, if you're careful with which games they play and which ones they don't (i.e. if you play them in easier games and they get 8s and 9s) then there should still be room for progression. The current system is too one dimensional for me.

Player progression and contract negotiations are unrealistic in my eyes and even in IRL terms because they've been proven wrong time and time again.

One thing that Bale had is that he delivers when asked to.
Southampton singed him after he had an amazing game he was being scouted at.
He scored goals for Wales at 17-18 years of age as Gigs was on the verge of retiring.
He had a rocky patch at the beginning of his Spurs career but once they got to the Champions League, he moved up a gear.
Every time he stepped up a level in the game, he found something more in him and got better.

He is a fantastic example of how mentality and being driven dose more for your game than world class facilities and medals.

 

[WJ]

....

I don't agree with it, because I'm on the other side of the fence, but it is a point well made.

Even if it is wrong.

The main problem I have with PA is that my scouts have a look at 10 players and I get 10 reports all with similar CA but their PAs will all be different. CA is how they are right now, and if they are all similar right now, what exactly did my scouts see to make them think he could one day be a World Cup winner; that did would not indicate a higher CA?

I'd like to see scouts only be able to predict PA to a certain degree. A 15 year old who's not in the first team regularly should have displayed nothing that implies he'll be world class in 5 years time. If you look at real life, one things every single world class player has was they were spotted early since they made themselves stand out. They were better than their age grade and forced their way into the first team. They had had a high enough CA to make people think their PA could be higher.


What I'd like to see in game: The higher a players CA, the more accurate a scouts opinion of his PA is. It's fine tuning. You can't know how good a player will be until he's nearly there. Scouting is just a giant guessing game but in FM, there's a relative safety in trusting your scouts. I've never liked that.

Scouting I'm sure will become more refined in later versions. I agree that real life scouts judge on CA or rather CA for that age. FM scouts don't seem to do it, but I'm not 100% sure what goes into their reports exactly. I suppose I could find out, since I know someone who worked for SI on that area of the game, but anyway, I agree. It does seem more random in FM (it probably isn't ) and it shouldn't be.