Phatmos

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Hey Everyone,

Long time lurker of the forum, been playing football management sims since champ man 01/02. What I wanted to address today following the great work from Mr L and his tactic testing team is a practical guide which asks does the club I'm using have the starting resources to succeed with this tactic? As someone who has been following FM forums for years. You see patterns occur in the community. A promising tactic is made, people have great initial success, it gains more exposure, people start plugging it in to many different teams and then it starts receiving negative feedback and your left with a mixed bag of opinions, repeat this a couple of times over and you have a community divided on what the best tactic is. The answer is their is no best tactic, but their are superior ones and if even one person had great success with a tactic, then their has to be underlying reason why it works for them and maybe not for you, of course we also have to keep in mind the ability of the team you inherit versus the person it worked wonders for. But we are lucky enough to usually have a great amount of collective data from user results, to know that when a tactic works for a lower club team, it's usually going to work across the board.

Now my process every time I start a game is to find a promising tactic and look at the positional ability of the starting squad I want to manage in relation to carrying out the positional roles of that tactic. My theory is quite simple, people fail with these "Superior Tactics" because they don't have players with the right positional ability, nothing that enlightening, common sense really but I still believe very overlooked.

That's not to say I am ignoring all the vast variables, such as quality of training and morale etc but to a certain degree they can be controlled by the player, we can improve the morale with team talks, we can tinker with training. What we cant change so easily is the starting squad we inherit. So when you have comments such as "I played it for 15 games but I just cant get it to work" it's either because they aren't performing the simple things well or they just don't have the players to carry out the roles of that tactic and to correct that could take many seasons.

So Enough Waffling on, I'm going to be focusing in this post today on the Tactic 3-4-3 Watford System, a popular tactic on FM Base and look at the Premier League teams. As in investigation to ask the question which team can realistically play with this tactic from the start. To do this I will be using FM Genie to give me the data necessary too read more into players positional role abilities.

So player roles as seen below for the 3-4-3 Watford System

View attachment 1100844

Lets look at Sunderland to begin with. I focus on the potential starting 11 and make comments on where it wont work or where a transfer may be needed

12-16 mil starting budget (Maybe two to three transfers possible)

Poacher Role - Jermain Defoe (His best role - 82.4 rating) Gotta start him their he should flourish. Backup - Borini (74.1) will do decent job

F9 - Steven Pienaar (75.6) and Adnan Januzaj (74.3) - In this tactic Januzaj becomes redundant in other positions, with training set to false 9, I believe he will do a decent job. Pienaar is a very flexible he could also be employed in the central midfield roles as DLP (76.5) but my thinking is that quality strikers are a rare breed with high costs. So i would train him as a F9 and DLP backup.

DLP - Sebastian Larsson (77.6) He should do a good job in this role - Jack Rodwell as backup (72.0) an okay replacement

BWM - Lee Cattermole (82.8) His best role, no worries here. Backup Didier Ndong (77.5) Great backup to have here as well.

WBL - Patrick Van Anholt (69.0) Pretty poor in this position, he actually employs best as a winger which is no help here. I would definitely dip into the transfer market here and replace him.

WBR - Billy Jones (76.7) Good choice here he can play WBL with a (75.3) rating. But I would personally keep him as WBR and replace Van Anholt instead. Backup Javi Manquilo (72.6)

BDP (ST) Jan Kirchoff (70.3) and Papy Djilobodji (73.4) Decent but considering the squad strength as whole having these two as the best players in those two roles would concern me. I would want to buy at least one if not two replacements.

BDP (CO) Lamine Koné (71.8) Again okay but I wouldn't want to rely on these three BDP's all season.


GK - Vito Mannonne (74.5) He's a good keeper but with the BDP we have he is going to be facing a lot of shots and so I predict will suffer.
Michael Domingues (69.4) Wouldn't want to rely on this guy as backup.

Thoughts -
No surprises really that Sunderland have problems at the back. I think going forward Sunderland playing this tactic wouldn't be to bad, Defoe should do really well, with Pienaar and Januzaj who could do a job as F9's. Cattermole a solid addition in the BWM role with Larsson playing DLP. The midfield and Striker roles actually look fairly good. WBL is must buy, Jones is a good addition at WBR with okay backup. Where it get's concerning is the BDP roles, I believe over a season this is where the tactic will suffer. Mannonne is good but needs a good defence in front of him. The transfer budget would need to cover 4 roles (WBL & 3 BDP positions) which would be a stretch with 12-16 mil.

I will post more teams at a later date if anyone is interested.

Cheers
;)
 
Great post mate plenty for people to think about there. Be interested to see the rest of your squad assessments
 
Great post mate plenty for people to think about there. Be interested to see the rest of your squad assessments

Thanks, What I have actually decided to do is run a season using the 3-4-3 Watford V2 tactic with Sunderland over a season. Following my analysis of the squad here and update my thoughts in this thread.
 
I think this is what a lot of people overlooked especially since SI began tweaking the match engine.
 
you think 3-4-3 watford v2 is the best tactic?
also pre season training? during the season and players filters?
 
So I have now played 14 games with this Sunderland squad. Using the 3-4-3 v2. Overall I'm quite happy with the predictions I made regarding the ability of this squad to carry out this tactic. I'm going to cover my thoughts here and process of thinking in a little more depth.

Oversights:
Firstly I want to start with oversights I made, which impacted the team quite heavily. Injuries. Quite a big oversight on my part as well, I lost four of my starters from the off. Lee Cattermole (BWM) Sebastian Larsson (BWM) Billy Jones (WBR) and Vito Mannonne (GKD) this combined with the fact I needed a (WBL and 3 DLP) with a starting budget I was given of 12 million. Put the club in a real bad position before the first game had even started. I also realised I had Jordan Pickford (GKD 75.6) so a better option than Mannonne.

Transfers:Jonas Olsson (BDP 75.9) Alejandro Arribas (BDP 75.0) Joey'O Brian (WBL 75.3) Micheal Essien (DLP 76.6)

View attachment 107568


These guys pretty much ate through the 12 million when you put signing on fees and wages into account.

Mistakes: Joey'O Brian it's not that he can't play the WBL role, he can do an okay job their. But it's his worst rating in terms of positional role. His lack of acceleration when caught high up the pitch with this tactic only highlighted this fact.

Training Prep: All my starters and backups where set to train in the role I wanted to play them in. Common sense really and Overall Match training was set to Team Cohesion and Match Tactics. Just before the Liverpool game as you'll see below the tactic became fully fluid and Overall Match Training was set to Tactics and Def pos training. Cohesion because I made transfers and was adjusting positional roles and Match Tactics because they needed to learn the tactic. Later on Tactics because I felt the players lacked understanding of the tactic in terms of carrying it out and Def Pos because... well as you'll see and I predicted at times we were a shambles.

Morale I have been able to keep squad morale to good levels despite poor results by keeping my tone calm, keeping the faith and not berating the side for narrow losses. You cant go all ferguson on a side that is fighting to stay out of relegation.

Results:

View attachment 107565

As you can see defensively this tactic just doesn't suit Sunderland. I was able to bring two of the BDP up to an acceptable standard but my mistake with Joey'O Brian at WBL and having to rely on Manquillo at WBR meant that teams with good wingers still punished us defensively.

The water runs deep with Sunderland though, they lack depth across the squad, particularly in defense. Making them a Challenge to play with any tactic I feel. This squad is more a labor of love. They would be more suited to a flat back four however. Basically any tactic where you could limit the number of defenders used. It would have been easier to replace 2 CB instead of 3. LB needs to be changed regardless, Van Anholt is a winger. So number of transfers needed could be brought down the 3 instead of 4. But as I stated my oversight with injuries to key players with this tactic ensured it's failure.

I was quite pleased however with the scoring potential my players set up these positional roles brought.

Jermaine Defoe is doing well in that poacher role

View attachment 107558

Steven Pienarr Has got a good amount of assists in the F9 role

View attachment 107557

Adnan Januzaj probably the poorest of the three so far has still contributed okay

View attachment 107556


In terms of goals scored overall I'm happy with how the team is doing as seen here:

View attachment 107555


Overall I think using the 3-4-3 V2 I could keep them out of relegation this season, picking up points at home and away against the lower to mid table sides. I could keep the tactic going, improving in the next transfer window the two wing-back positions which have been the key to unlocking our defense and partly my fault. Depending of course on money available. But I'd probably be looking realistically at 3-4 seasons before pushing in any direction for trophies, that would be my aim anyway, slowly tweaking away improving on the positional roles over many seasons. The point of this it to highlight the fact that you have to have the players who will do the job in the positional roles of the tactic and if you decide to plug in just any tactic then you have to be prepared to accept that your projection of success, even when making the right decisions and doing the little things well is going to be longer than one season. Especially when playing with the lower tier teams. I would be doing a disservice to the creator of the 3-4-3 V2 by saying well it just doesn't work, I can already see that it could work with Sunderland but that's going to take a couple of season to do. As I stated if it works for one person then it can work for any. But if your looking for quick results you have to keep in mind the point I have discussed here. Fit the tactic to suit the team.
 
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This is also how I buy players. For example if the tactic I employ has a RPM I search for good potentees in Genie for that role. Many go for CA/PA but Role Rating is the way to go. Good thread to evaluate a squad using 3rd party tools :)
 
From FM Genie Scout. It comes up with a percentual rating based on an algorithm to each position.

cool, thanks i never use these things anymore so didnt know what it was from.

its an interesting concept for a thread :D
 
cool, thanks i never use these things anymore so didnt know what it was from.

its an interesting concept for a thread :D

Most definitely! Helpful work. I love Genie Scout, won't play without it - some think it's cheating :D
 
I won Premiership in first season with Sunderland playing 3 5 2.

I must say your style how to play with this team is so bad.

With this aproach you canot do any serius result.

Also this type of thread is interesting but I am not happy with your knowledge of this game.

This algoritam with number is complete bullshit!

Example your central defender can have some high number let say 85 but for me if he have concetration less then 13 he is complete **** for me.

Player atributes is most important thing not some algoritam.

I am realy disapointed.
 
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I've been a Genie scout user for years, and every year I donate to Eugene to get an early version of it. It's a fantastic tool that I see as a shortcut for us that don't have much time to play, rather than cheating. But don't trust in it blindly, mainly in its ratings, because sometimes as vujecic says, it considers the overall ratings for each role/position and ignores them individually. Also this rating ignores other aspects like personality, determination, profissionalism, injury proneness, that you can see in a different section. I usually do this: make a filter in genie with a minimal CA, position, and other aspects like the ones stated above and then save it like a shortlist. Then in the scout section of the game you can import the shorlist made in genie, with the advantage of, with the help of your assitant you can filter the ones keen in joining your team, and then set all of them in observation. And finally with the scouts reports take a final decision. It's a great way to quickly find the best, that you can actually buy or sign. The point is that everything matters, not only role ability. I think all of us had a certain player performing great in a role rating ingame of 5/10. As example is the great ratings most wingers got in all the Wide Midfielders tactics around in FM16 nd Fm17.
 
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