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Really need help to understand the game

michelhovel

Member
May 24, 2011
39
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Hello,

I started a new game with Bournemouth and it doesn't went well (I had clear cut chances but my strikers doesn't put it in).
I read some guides, but it seems that i still didn't understand the game (because otherwise i cannot explain why i suck in this game).
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, i really need someone who can simplified out things for me.
I started a new season, i saw it didn't worked out so i start over, again, and again, I tried many variation of my own tactics (that in my opinion could work, but it didn't), than i thought to give a try for no TI's at all.
There also might be a possibility that when i read those guide i didn't fully understand the meaning of most of explanations and guides in general, cause of lacking vocabulary.


Me personally in real life, I like more organized game, so i chooses playing structured shape.
1st game was against Sunderland (home), I played with control mentality and structured shape, and i won 1-0.
Sunderland didn't had clear cut chances but my GK saved me (I assume there might be a good reason he got 7.1 rating).
I was in full control of the game when it become to possession (61 - 39), but the overall performance of my team.... well, i wasn't that impressed.

Next match was against Chelsea (away).
I went with counter attack mentality (no TI's) and it invited so many pressure from Chelsea side to my defense and after 24 minutes they are already leading by 2 goals (16,24).
After the 2nd goal, I changed to control mentality (I had nothing to lose) and my team performance improved (I have no idea how it makes any sense).
By that, I got confused.
how am i suppose to know which mentality to play at home and away.
it's not that obvious that if im playing against chelsea (which obviously stronger team than me), I should go with counter attack?!?!?!?!?!?!

Next game was against Norwich city (home), playing with control mentality:
till 43 min of the game, norwich had more chances in generall, and my team didn't performed really well, i changed the tempo to low.
2nd half started and i scored (48, 50) still not convineced performance, norwich was very close to score 1 or two goals (1 clear cut but it didn't count for them as a clear cut and the other could be also a goal)
and in 69,71 i scored another 2 goals, now im winning 4-0 against them but that's still looks for me more luck than good performance.
I feel like i have problems with my defense maybe (could be also because i have low quality players) for me it seems like i seems like my defenders are just not a good job (i failed to purchase mammana, but not really sure he would change that much in 1st season, i might be also wrong).

I can upload match highlights if needed but i don't really know which file.

this is my tactic:
View attachment 145632


Any help will be much greatfull.
 

michelhovel

Member
May 24, 2011
39
0
0
35
What I might be doing wrong?
I keep losing or draw matches which I suppose to win.
even the match on the FA cup I struggled (against Swindon, away) but since i gave some rest to some players in the FA cup, that also might be the factor of my team to struggle (but what i also don't understand, my subs are ain't that bad, especially against low level team), i also missed penalty in the game.
View attachment 145449View attachment 145448

next match i meet leicester city (away), we lost 2-0, ok i can deal with that (even though my team performed well).

Next match against Watford city (Home).
View attachment 145447View attachment 145446

Next game against Swansea (Away):
View attachment 145445View attachment 145444

Any help, suggestions how to improve the defensive line?
i guess with control mentality i won't be able to do so, but as i mentioned before counter mentality just inviting pressure and chances against me and i cannot see myself using it.
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
8
38
You're one of the weaker teams in the league. Considering that, what's the idea with this tactic and why specifically did you choose Control (an attacking Mentality) as the base?
 

michelhovel

Member
May 24, 2011
39
0
0
35
push the defensive line to slightly higher, I tried this and the defense sorted it out
I appreciate your help, I already did it before and as I typed above I'm conceding easily when go even higher (while control mentality is already should be high defensive line enough I think).

You don't seem to use any instructions at all
I start matches without any TI's, since according to what I've read and understand from guides, mentalities contain TI's in them. I add TI's only when i see it needed (i.e.: if I see my team trying too many long passes and we lose too much possession and it doesn't goes as my plan, I lower the tempo).
If that's not a good idea, I would be gladly to hear why and hear others perspective of the game.

You're one of the weaker teams in the league. Considering that, what's the idea with this tactic and why specifically did you choose Control (an attacking Mentality) as the base?
Yeah, that's right.
I said on my post that when I use counter attack it invites pressure on my defensive line and it a matter of time I concede a goal (before I post this comment I tried counter many matches).
for example when I used control mentality at home against Watford I was dominating and had 4 clear cut chances (screenshot above), while before I typed this comment, I played against Watford again but now with counter mentality, and it end as a draw.
While Watford was dominating and this time my team had huge luck not losing the match (unconvinced performance which sometimes can happen this is why I posted this thread to get tips and some help to maybe understand the game).
Maybe I also did a mistake that I didn't bought a better defenders and I was focused more on the attack and midfield players.
Also Boruc and Federici (GK's) seems like both of them have some oil in there hand while trying to catch the balls.
I choose control mentality because either way with counter attack mentality I will end up conceding, so at least I will have a better performance from my team while I use control mentality, so my team will push forward and put some pressure on the opposite players.
I don't like the fact that I'm obligated to play one mentality because counter attack for example doesn't work for me.
I tried only both mentalities because I cannot see my team even attacking properly with defensive mentality.
Maybe the shape is also the problem? (Too predictable?)


Sorry if there are any grammar mistakes.
All the best.
 
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WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
8
38
Yeah, that's right.
I said on my post that when I use counter attack it invites pressure on my defensive line and it a matter of time I concede a goal (before I post this comment I tried counter many matches).
for example when I used control mentality at home against Watford I was dominating and had 4 clear cut chances (screenshot above), while before I typed this comment, I played against Watford again but now with counter mentality, and it end as a draw.
While Watford was dominating and this time my team had huge luck not losing the match (unconvinced performance which sometimes can happen this is why I posted this thread to get tips and some help to maybe understand the game).
Maybe I also did a mistake that I didn't bought a better defenders and I was focused more on the attack and midfield players.
Also Boruc and Federici (GK's) seems like both of them have some oil in there hand while trying to catch the balls.
I choose control mentality because either way with counter attack mentality I will end up conceding, so at least I will have a better performance from my team while I use control mentality, so my team will push forward and put some pressure on the opposite players.
I don't like the fact that I'm obligated to play one mentality because counter attack for example doesn't work for me.
I tried only both mentalities because I cannot see my team even attacking properly with defensive mentality.
Maybe the shape is also the problem? (Too predictable?)
You aren't obligated to use anything.

Games at home against Watford (an equal) will be very different to games against mid to top of the table teams.

You seem to randomly pick Mentalities until something 'sticks'. Control is much higher, wider, more closing down, higher tempo and has a different passing structure compared to Counter. The entire tactic will play very differently if you switch Mentalities.

Mentality itself, apart from the defaults, is about levels of risk. Players will take more risks in everything they do on the more attacking Mentalities. They'll go for more ambitious passes, shots, forward runs, tackles etc whereas the safer mentalities are the opposite.
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
8
38
I start matches without any TI's, since according to what I've read and understand from guides, mentalities contain TI's in them. I add TI's only when i see it needed (i.e.: if I see my team trying too many long passes and we lose too much possession and it doesn't goes as my plan, I lower the tempo).
If that's not a good idea, I would be gladly to hear why and hear others perspective of the game.
IMO, you understood this wrong.

In the beginning, it's better to not use TIs. If you do, it should be very, very few. You haven't seen how the team even plays yet - how do you know which tweaks will help or harm the tactic?

If you notice something in a match, add TIs.

If you notice you're adding a TI in 2 or 3 matches in a row now, it's something that needs adding permanently.

That's, again IMO, the best way of doing it when starting out with a tactic.
 

michelhovel

Member
May 24, 2011
39
0
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35
I read other forums guides even those guides that suggested from here to SI forum.
I tried to give more tries after I saw your comments, but I'm tired of restarting the game... So, I will be back to FM15, because there after understanding the game I manage to do much better.
what annoys me the most is that I set a tight marking for my center backs (in-case it's really important, it was Balanta) and they doesn't seems to tight mark them (striker won't even go deeper, just sitting at the front so it should be even easier for center backs to mark him).
One more thing is the closing down, when i put closing down to much more, players just seems to be less aggressive and they just standing and waiting for the opponent to make a move, while the defending player just standing still.
But that's not the only case, in general, the game feels more complicated and if people like it, I salute them because after all that's supposed to be a game not a statistics tests.
too much numbers need to be analyzed (those who claim the game works properly, i believe them, because they claim that many other things needs to be analyzed, but does real manager and his co-workers have the time to analyze everything in game, even if the answer is yes, that's still supposed to be a game to enjoy, not to start some statistics analyzing).
Me personally don't see any point to grab someone else tactics and play with it just because it works, while it might also can works due to bugs, because i see some tactics that doesn't really make sense according to guides and they works.
The whole satisfaction in this game is to manage by your own and create your own tactics.
i won't be supersized if the game doesn't have that much of people who bought it.
Maybe I'm wrong with my POV, just my opinion.
There are various managers' game out there, but due to lack of 'competition' this one is the best one, but yet have really low amount of people playing it.
I can ensure you guys that almost every real football lover, likes manager games and they don't play it, just because it's too complicated (I have many a lot of friends that feels that way).

While I'm the only one who tried the FM16 from my friends, I'm highly disappointed from FM16.

Sorry if there are any grammar mistakes.
 
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vanTiggelen

Member
Dec 7, 2014
91
0
6
Managing Bournemouth first season there's barely a match "you should be winning". It's not only a game of tactics, and they've been embroiled into relegation fight until the end of the season, so you would expect that to be replicated in the game somehow. Which is them being newcomers to a new tier, and their players being mostly average at best in the grand scheme of competition. Better players = more consistently performers, less errors, more completed dribbles as is visible in the league's stats, more completed headers, they're more often to win the fight for the loose ball and decide matches simply by being more successfully going one on one, and so on. There won't be many matches you will dominate likewise, as unless you overperform, the majority of teams will expect no less than a win against you. Home matches will stay competitive. Away matches will remain tough. However AI Managers aren't that "advanced" or overcomplicating things either. Try to load it all up being unemployed and simulate things and see how the AI manager is doing with Bournemouth a couple teams. You'll get a feel for this.

I'd argue they'd need a good kick in the ****, simulate the Bundesliga for instance on full detail and see how Guardiola is doing at Bayern for instance despite his insanely superior squad depth. They're oft not that great at breaking teams down who "park the bus", nor are they that amazing at getting exposed for high lines or having little protection against counter attacks either. In fact Guardiola's semi-regularly punished just for that even against weaker opposition (which may actually fairly realistic mind). The AI's competitive enough and that's that. But gradually you can outperform it, taking over Bayern yourself you would outperform Guardiola as is already as he often struggles to score even 2 goals a match in the league plus not seldom drops lots of points rather than dominating the BL as much as the leap in quality would suggest. What those AI do though is increase risk and decrease it, playing for draws, getting more cautious upon leads, pushing for late equalizers rather than firing all over the shop. At their most parking bus they have tons of players on defend dutys simply staying behind the ball for prolonged periods, and vice versa.

If you want to try really simple, why not at least try the assistant outright on FM Touch. Beyond the big guys random fluctuation is always going to be more of a factor, as injury to the few key players can mage bigger differences due to lack in squad depth already, plus arguably in the EPL too beyond the top four to six, the difference in quality isn't that big. That'S typical for lots of leagues, and this was me HOLIDAYING doing nothing myself in Spain for fun.



Complicated how then? Struggling to put your ideas into the UI? Struggling with football basics fand/or implementing them into the match play? Struggling to read what's going on full stop? Being prone to chopping things around at random? Restarting whenever you get into a slump which in fairness with Bournemouth would happen likely rather than continuing and trying to get out of it?
 
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michelhovel

Member
May 24, 2011
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well, this is annoying:View attachment 139606

After losing to burnley in the cup 2-3 i played at home (was leading 2-0, they scored goals from nowhere), i was like
ok, **** happens.
but this match is enough for me to understand that something is wrong with the game.
why? let's starts with the fact that boreck dockal was puted in the AMC (attacking role) position, and when there was a goal kick for the opposite team, i saw him going back to like half back position (i have "prevent from GK....." tagged), you will be able to see it on the highlight PKM.
for me it's just an indication to understand that maybe this specific save is bugged (because i also have lots of injuries while i hired decent coaches and 2 good physios), the training intensity is on average and the overall is medium.
I got annoyed by the game and rage quit, going back to FM15
i hope i uploaded the file properly.
 
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vanTiggelen

Member
Dec 7, 2014
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I got annoyed by the game and rage quit, going back to FM15
i hope i uploaded the file properly.

Are you sure it's the right one? Not seeing that Dockal thing looking at the op goal kicks, he's fielded in the AMC slot that's where he lines up when kicks are taken. Also shows as a 1-2 for me. On tops they had just as many shots in your box as you.



And whilst both their goals may have come from individual error / own goals respectively to turn that around, your only goal was a penalty, and going by the stats not sure what you encouraged further, but your wide backs who are the only ones who could provide some width in that hugely narrow formation made a total combined of like 7 crosses in 90 minutes, looking at some play at different stages it is apparent none of them is pushing up early/much enough (none of them on an attack duty?), so the only option forward is down the ecentre, against their 2 dm formation packing just that middle making it **** easy to defend for them. One of the forwards, Sandro, didn't get an attempt off for the entirety he played, and almost every shot by the 13 in the above is Dockal being awarded a DFK.



Might return to FM 2015 if that's causing rage quit, agree. Injuries are a personal bug bear. Ever experienced anything Liverpool had to face last season? Arseanl all the time? Guardiola who has basically first sacked the entire top class medical head staff at Bayern and then still go through the same stuff for another season, third in a row? Me neither. The game should replicate that but I can see (here too) why SI wouldn't let it be that harsh, the rage quits. You'd need to get incredibly unlucky, which is not a bug in itself to approach any that. Tactics, pitch and weather conditions, training regimes, staff, the players bought themselves and how and when they're utilized naturally influence further.
 
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WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
8
38
Are you sure it's the right one? Not seeing that Dockal thing looking at the op goal kicks, he's fielded in the AMC slot that's where he lines up when kicks are taken. Also shows as a 1-2 for me.
This sort of thing can happen when your FM versions differ and more specifically, the ME build.

OP, are you on 16.3? If not, why not?
 

rocheyb

Member
Jul 8, 2013
3,274
110
63
One tip I would give to anyone struggling with FM is to - if only for a while - watch matches in the Comprehensive view. It will take longer but if you really watch the match you will see what differences your instructions have on the way your team plays; where they run to, how they pass the ball, how they combine with team-mates, where they play 'deep crosses' from and who is getting on the end of them, which players complete their passes, get their shots on targets and win their tackles and aerial battles, etc.

Statistics tell you so much, but seeing it happen is much more memorable and informative. Tactical ideas that don't work can be jettisoned and things that do can be incorporated into your overall FM managerial approach, which you'll carry forward from one edition of the game to the next.
 

xambo

Member
Nov 3, 2010
26
0
0
The good thing in a structured tactic is that it will be strong defensively. The problem with a structured tactic though is offensively you will suffer since there will be less forward runs and creative movement from your attackers. To compensate for your structure system you need to better your attacking movement to produce more threat infornt of goal. This can be done woth giving more freedom for your attacking players and adding forwards runs. This video here is very well in explaining the attacking movement.

[video=youtube;qKjIT0r9_Ks]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKjIT0r9_Ks[/video]
 

WJ

Member
Apr 3, 2014
4,477
8
38
The good thing in a structured tactic is that it will be strong defensively. The problem with a structured tactic though is offensively you will suffer since there will be less forward runs and creative movement from your attackers. To compensate for your structure system you need to better your attacking movement to produce more threat infornt of goal. This can be done woth giving more freedom for your attacking players and adding forwards runs. This video here is very well in explaining the attacking movement.
All Structured is, is limited Creative Freedom (to deviate from instructions/try something unexpected) and a bigger spacing between strata in possession.

If you need good movement to create something in Structured, you'll still need it even if you switch to Very Fluid.

Whether to make runs or not will still depend on Role, Duty and Mentality.
 
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