Rooney's thoughts on Messi in England

[ChrisBird]

Rather than praising yourselves for how "hard-hitting" the likes of Stoke are and how much Barcelona would hypothetically struggle if they played in the Prem, maybe you should ask yourselves how many of Barca's players could have gotten through the English youth system. Would Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta been groomed to be superstars at a young age? I bet not, and the coaches would say they're too small, short, and slow. I wonder why the Spanish NT is so much better than the rest of the world at the moment...

Barca would destroy the PL as it is atm whether they play against a big side or not, it doesn't matter. Barcelona probably wouldn't give them the chance to have a throwing or corner

 

[Scott]

Rather than praising yourselves for how "hard-hitting" the likes of Stoke are and how much Barcelona would hypothetically struggle if they played in the Prem, maybe you should ask yourselves how many of Barca's players could have gotten through the English youth system. Would Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta been groomed to be superstars at a young age? I bet not, and the coaches would say they're too small, short, and slow. I wonder why the Spanish NT is so much better than the rest of the world at the moment...

And lets ask if a player like Keane would of got through the spanish system, but your bottom dollar he would of got told he was too aggressive, not technical enough and too wild.

 

[Mads2506]

And lets ask if a player like Keane would of got through the spanish system, but your bottom dollar he would of got told he was too aggressive, not technical enough and too wild.

And too messed up.

 

[Scott]

And too messed up.

So it works both ways, We also produced technical gifted players like Scholes and Beckham, lets not forgot.

 

[markodragojevic]

Barca have small squad and i think they would have far more injuries in PL so i don't think they would destroy everyone...

 

[Mads2506]

Barca have small squad and i think they would have far more injuries in PL so i don't think they would destroy everyone...

I wouldn't exactly call it a small squad, and I kinda disagree with the injury thing. It's not like Prem players go for maniac tackles every game.

 

[Ben]

Stoke wouldn't get near Messi.

 

[Mike.]

Stoke wouldn't get near Messi.

not so sure, they approach the game in a similar manner to the way hercules did against them, though it would actually reuire a toned down performance, ie when they stand off, rather than dive in. if they went diving in, he'd just step them

---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

Yawn. I'm SO sick of hearing the Messi couldn't do it against Stoke argument. Why are we even having this discussion? Is he coming to the Premiership? No. So why do we care so much about whether or not he could do it against Stoke? There are plenty of Premiership players that couldn't hack it in La Liga because they're not skilled enough, but does anyone talk about this? I really think this whole discussion is fueled by nationalism and insecurity about the fact that the best players and teams in the world right now are in Spain, along with their national team being the best...I personally don't even think La Liga is better but I find it very amusing that PL fanboys have to constantly trash it and talk about how poorly La Liga teams and players would do if they played in the Prem...you don't see the fans in any other countries talk like this incessantly.

Would Messi do well without Xavi and Iniesta? Maybe not as well, but he would still tear it up, as he does when they aren't there.

Would ANY forward in the game struggle if they lost their service? Yes.

Is Stoke away soooo much harder than Bilbao away like Rooney/Andy Gray/pundits suggest? No.

Would Messi/Barcelona destroy Stoke? Yes.

Would he have a harder time in the Premier league? Perhaps because of the refs being less strict (and injuries from god-awful tackles) and the style of play not favoring them quite as much, but he/Barcelona would still tear up the Prem.

Would he have a hard time scoring if he played for Stoke? Yeah probably, because his style doesn't fit theirs.

Would a lot of PL players and teams have a hard time in Spain? Yes.

Could you say this about pretty much any team or player, that they would struggle if they played in a different style of play and a different league or for a different team? Yes.

Will we ever know the answers to many of these questions? No.

Does Messi suck for Argentina? No, these claims are made mostly by people that don't watch the Argentine national team play. He usually is their strongest player.

Has Argentina had a good coach since Messi has been a key player for them? No.

Does he fit well into Argentina's system? No, although they just started trying to make a serious effort into playing a 4-3-3 that would incorporate him well.

Do any of Argentina's players play as well for Argentina as they do for their club teams? No.

Is Messi only 23? Yes.

Has Rooney played well for the English national team? Not really.

Do people ever try to and say he's a worse player because of it? I've rarely, if never, heard it.

Did Rooney just get soundly beaten by Messi and Barcelona once again? Yes.

Why is he making these comments right now? I wonder.



Rather than praising yourselves for how "hard-hitting" the likes of Stoke are and how much Barcelona would hypothetically struggle if they played in the Prem, maybe you should ask yourselves how many of Barca's players could have gotten through the English youth system. Would Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta been groomed to be superstars at a young age? I bet not, and the coaches would say they're too small, short, and slow. I wonder why the Spanish NT is so much better than the rest of the world at the moment...

take a chill pill

1) what fanboys? i hate it when people just toss that phrase out, definitely one of my pet peeves

2) i dont see anyone praising stokes hard hitting ways either

 

[Dunc]

Joey Barton would **** him up.

 

[Mike.]

Joey Barton would **** him up.

forget the tackle he'd just take him out vinnie jones style.

but why is it whenever we mention messi everything has to be so polarised? **** its not as if rooney really criticised him if indeed these are Rooney's words. This is Goal.com

 

[ajt09]

Firstly, wether or not Messi will be just as outstanding in the premiership doesn't matter-he has said himself today he never wants to play in the premiership, so let's put that to be bed. And Premiership players wouln't hack it in Spain, because they're not allowed to tackle properly. They do a normal, hard challenge (without studs showing) they'd be carded, because the officials are a lot stricter. And as for Stoke-I like watching them play. Do you know why? They do full blooded challenges. Sometimes it goes a bit wrong sometimes, but the defenders defend properly-which you're not allowed to do in La Liga all the time. And they don't care if they get criticised for how they play-because they play to their strengths. But they've also showed, they can adjust now. Its' also disrespectful on the club and the manager to keep slating them. But that's another topic for another day.

And it wasn't just Rooney who got snuffed out of the last game (though he did score a cracking Barcaesque goal-top drawer stuff)-there are 11 players on each team on a field of play if I'm not mistaken. Rooney didn't have a good game because once again the old chestnut-he was starved of service. But thats been done to death, so I'm going to bore by flogging a dead horse once again.

And some of the best players that are abroad right now are great-because they were made great, but outstanding coaches and managers in the Premiership. And some foreign managers enjoy coming back to manage in the Prem-because they love our football. Pepe has said himself he would love the challenge of managing in England-because he'd love the challenge. And thats what the Prem is-a challenge, especially now with other teams emerging much stronge. La Liga is pretty much a stale 2 horse race most of the time.

And not all tackles are god awful-90% percent of the time, they are normal challenges for this league. It's just the other 10% that are either OTT or mistimed. You get exactly the same thing right through the Npower league and below. That's why I like watching sunday football. Because the players are actually allowed to tackle as they're supposed to.

And as for being a fanboy, well, so what? We love the Prem as it's our countries league, and it's provided great excitement and controversy and talking points all the time. And rooney doesn't always have the best international games, because again I reiterate, he needs ****** service.

It doesn't help when he's surrounded by players who are performing below par, or if the manager ignores better players, and shoves on players who are not capable of cutting it at internation level-such as Barry, and he's always having to go back and defend, therefore, denying him goal scoring opportunities. Football basics right?

 

[fuelledbypassion]

Rather than praising yourselves for how "hard-hitting" the likes of Stoke are and how much Barcelona would hypothetically struggle if they played in the Prem, maybe you should ask yourselves how many of Barca's players could have gotten through the English youth system. Would Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta been groomed to be superstars at a young age? I bet not, and the coaches would say they're too small, short, and slow. I wonder why the Spanish NT is so much better than the rest of the world at the moment...

I think they have a slight advantage in Spain with reguards the youth system. They aren't limited to how much they train their under aged players, so they can develop technical skills more quickly and learn their clubs tactics and philosophy better (although the bizarre contract rules mean that many can be poached by foreign teams).

I agree that Messi would still have a massive impact in England though, but I think Rooney is praising his team mates in the article rather than putting Messi down. Any player would find it more difficult in a completely different system with different players, but chuck him in the Arsenal side with Fabregas and he'd run riot.

I don't like how you generalise about the 'fanboys' of the premiership always finding reason to disparage La Liga. I for one enjoy the combative, hearts on sleeves attitude of English players and how it translates into the football we play. Everyone likes a trier! I actually enjoy watching a defender on top of his game. And on that subject, I thought Pique was colossal against United, yet Messi always gets all the plaudits.

 

[curtis290]

Not sure how Rooney was soundly beaten by Messi and Barcelona. He is just one man, playing up front, where his team only had 32% possession. And he was still one of the few players to come out of that game with any glory.

Wasn't saying that Rooney himself was beaten, I just said that he lost (meaning he was on the losing team), and IMO after you lose to an opponent you shouldn't be like "well they couldn't do that in our league!"

Agree with your last part though. We're only just starting to appreciate technical players in the team. Look at Scholes, was never used to his full potential because we'd rather have someone who will run around with his heart on his sleeve than a technically elegant player. So ironic how, now we want a playmaker, the best one of his generation has retired and we've wasted 3 tournaments trying to incorporate Lampard and Gerrard into one system.

My thoughts exactly.

And lets ask if a player like Keane would of got through the spanish system, but your bottom dollar he would of got told he was too aggressive, not technical enough and too wild.

...

So it works both ways, We also produced technical gifted players like Scholes and Beckham, lets not forgot.

It actually doesn't really work both ways. Spain just won a Euro and World Cup and Barca just won 2 out of 3 champions leagues and the English NT hasn't accomplished anything in a long time, not to mention many Prem teams seem to buy foreign players more than rely on their youth systems. Obviously great talent has been produced at English clubs, there's no questioning that, but I think there's a lot of evidence that they should take a look at their youth system, because I don't think the top players for Spain and Barca would have made it in England. And if Keane played in Spain he'd probably be more technical and less dirty, that is all.

Firstly, wether or not Messi will be just as outstanding in the premiership doesn't matter-he has said himself today he never wants to play in the premiership, so let's put that to be bed. And Premiership players wouln't hack it in Spain, because they're not allowed to tackle properly. They do a normal, hard challenge (without studs showing) they'd be carded, because the officials are a lot stricter. And as for Stoke-I like watching them play. Do you know why? They do full blooded challenges. Sometimes it goes a bit wrong sometimes, but the defenders defend properly-which you're not allowed to do in La Liga all the time. And they don't care if they get criticised for how they play-because they play to their strengths. But they've also showed, they can adjust now. Its' also disrespectful on the club and the manager to keep slating them. But that's another topic for another day.

And it wasn't just Rooney who got snuffed out of the last game (though he did score a cracking Barcaesque goal-top drawer stuff)-there are 11 players on each team on a field of play if I'm not mistaken. Rooney didn't have a good game because once again the old chestnut-he was starved of service. But thats been done to death, so I'm going to bore by flogging a dead horse once again.

And some of the best players that are abroad right now are great-because they were made great, but outstanding coaches and managers in the Premiership. And some foreign managers enjoy coming back to manage in the Prem-because they love our football. Pepe has said himself he would love the challenge of managing in England-because he'd love the challenge. And thats what the Prem is-a challenge, especially now with other teams emerging much stronge. La Liga is pretty much a stale 2 horse race most of the time.

And not all tackles are god awful-90% percent of the time, they are normal challenges for this league. It's just the other 10% that are either OTT or mistimed. You get exactly the same thing right through the Npower league and below. That's why I like watching sunday football. Because the players are actually allowed to tackle as they're supposed to.

And as for being a fanboy, well, so what? We love the Prem as it's our countries league, and it's provided great excitement and controversy and talking points all the time. And rooney doesn't always have the best international games, because again I reiterate, he needs ****** service.

It doesn't help when he's surrounded by players who are performing below par, or if the manager ignores better players, and shoves on players who are not capable of cutting it at internation level-such as Barry, and he's always having to go back and defend, therefore, denying him goal scoring opportunities. Football basics right?

I liked your impassioned defense of the Premier League but where on earth did I criticize the Premier League? I'm just criticizing the mentality of some of the fans/players/pundits/coaches. It's the arrogance that bothers me. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Barca/Messi couldn't do it at Stoke" or "La Liga is just like the SPL!" (and by the way, when was the last time a team other than Chelsea or ManU had a realistic chance at winning the Premier League?) The fact is certain players are better in certain styles of play than others. There are many players in Serie A or La Liga who would struggle in the Prem, and there are many Prem players who would struggle in either of those leagues. There's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make one necessarily better or worse, that's just the nature of the game. Yet we constantly have to hear criticism of Messi hypothetically being unable to succeed against Stoke or some other lower-tier Prem team. First of all, it's a stupid statement...he's not going to play in the Prem, so why talk about it. Second, success in the Prem is not the end-all be-all measure of someone's talent, which people seem to think it is (which is why they constantly criticize Messi or some other player as not being as good as people say: he couldn't do it in the Prem), and I think it's a rather arrogant notion. And this is the arrogance that is annoying: you don't hear Serie A and La Liga fans constantly bash other leagues or constantly talk about the star of some other league not being as good as people say he is because he couldn't make it in their league.

I think they have a slight advantage in Spain with reguards the youth system. They aren't limited to how much they train their under aged players, so they can develop technical skills more quickly and learn their clubs tactics and philosophy better (although the bizarre contract rules mean that many can be poached by foreign teams).

I agree that Messi would still have a massive impact in England though, but I think Rooney is praising his team mates in the article rather than putting Messi down. Any player would find it more difficult in a completely different system with different players, but chuck him in the Arsenal side with Fabregas and he'd run riot.

I don't like how you generalise about the 'fanboys' of the premiership always finding reason to disparage La Liga. I for one enjoy the combative, hearts on sleeves attitude of English players and how it translates into the football we play. Everyone likes a trier! I actually enjoy watching a defender on top of his game. And on that subject, I thought Pique was colossal against United, yet Messi always gets all the plaudits.

The advantage in Spain is more than slight, which is why players produced at Spanish academies are so successful at the moment. Players like Cesc and Silva are dominating the Prem yet are fringe players for the Spanish NT. That's how good Spain's youth system is. As for the second paragraph, I agree completely. Why is it then if Messi struggles for Argentina or "couldn't do it if he played for Stoke," places where his service is/would be poor should he be criticized?

Lastly, I'm not saying every PL fan is a fanboy. I'm simply criticizing a few that certainly seem like fanboys (and some pundits would fit into this category), and they seem to be quite visible. That's great that you like the Prem style. My only point is that the mentality of Rooney/Andy Gray/many PL fans that take pride in the fact that they don't think Messi/Barca could succeed against teams like Stoke is not only arrogant (do we hear La Liga fans say "I'd like to see them try that against Deportivo!" when they watch Chelsea?) but is hurting England. Because if Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta was at an English youth club at a young age, they would probably be cut by the team because the coach would say "I'd like to see them try that against Stoke." If you agree with that mentality and would rather have triers than technically gifted players (there's also this belief here that the two are mutually exclusive, which I don't get) than that's fine, but I personally think it's holding back your national team and is why we really haven't seen England do well in a while, while Spain, which has more patience with some of these smaller, technically gifted players even if they're not really fast, has been so good recently.

 

[Mike.]

Wasn't saying that Rooney himself was beaten, I just said that he lost (meaning he was on the losing team), and IMO after you lose to an opponent you shouldn't be like "well they couldn't do that in our league!"



My thoughts exactly.



It actually doesn't really work both ways. Spain just won a Euro and World Cup and Barca just won 2 out of 3 champions leagues and the English NT hasn't accomplished anything in a long time, not to mention many Prem teams seem to buy foreign players more than rely on their youth systems. Obviously great talent has been produced at English clubs, there's no questioning that, but I think there's a lot of evidence that they should take a look at their youth system, because I don't think the top players for Spain and Barca would have made it in England. And if Keane played in Spain he'd probably be more technical and less dirty, that is all.



I liked your impassioned defense of the Premier League but where on earth did I criticize the Premier League? I'm just criticizing the mentality of some of the fans/players/pundits/coaches. It's the arrogance that bothers me. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Barca/Messi couldn't do it at Stoke" or "La Liga is just like the SPL!" (and by the way, when was the last time a team other than Chelsea or ManU had a realistic chance at winning the Premier League?) The fact is certain players are better in certain styles of play than others. There are many players in Serie A or La Liga who would struggle in the Prem, and there are many Prem players who would struggle in either of those leagues. There's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make one necessarily better or worse, that's just the nature of the game. Yet we constantly have to hear criticism of Messi hypothetically being unable to succeed against Stoke or some other lower-tier Prem team. First of all, it's a stupid statement...he's not going to play in the Prem, so why talk about it. Second, success in the Prem is not the end-all be-all measure of someone's talent, which people seem to think it is (which is why they constantly criticize Messi or some other player as not being as good as people say: he couldn't do it in the Prem), and I think it's a rather arrogant notion. And this is the arrogance that is annoying: you don't hear Serie A and La Liga fans constantly bash other leagues or constantly talk about the star of some other league not being as good as people say he is because he couldn't make it in their league.



The advantage in Spain is more than slight, which is why players produced at Spanish academies are so successful at the moment. Players like Cesc and Silva are dominating the Prem yet are fringe players for the Spanish NT. That's how good Spain's youth system is. As for the second paragraph, I agree completely. Why is it then if Messi struggles for Argentina or "couldn't do it if he played for Stoke," places where his service is/would be poor should he be criticized?

Lastly, I'm not saying every PL fan is a fanboy. I'm simply criticizing a few that certainly seem like fanboys (and some pundits would fit into this category), and they seem to be quite visible. That's great that you like the Prem style. My only point is that the mentality of Rooney/Andy Gray/many PL fans that take pride in the fact that they don't think Messi/Barca could succeed against teams like Stoke is not only arrogant (do we hear La Liga fans say "I'd like to see them try that against Deportivo!" when they watch Chelsea?) but is hurting England. Because if Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta was at an English youth club at a young age, they would probably be cut by the team because the coach would say "I'd like to see them try that against Stoke." If you agree with that mentality and would rather have triers than technically gifted players (there's also this belief here that the two are mutually exclusive, which I don't get) than that's fine, but I personally think it's holding back your national team and is why we really haven't seen England do well in a while, while Spain, which has more patience with some of these smaller, technically gifted players even if they're not really fast, has been so good recently.

What Rooney mentality? suggest you re - read the article and read his quotes

"It’s more physical, the Premier League — the likes of going to Stoke or Birmingham away are incredibly difficult games to play. I think if you look at the two players, Ronaldo is suited more for English football than Messi would be.

“[Ronaldo’s] physique is good and he’s suited to the English game. The English game is more about counterattacking and the Spanish game is about possession.”

its not actually him who said messi would struggle, simply said ronaldo was more suited

and i'd like to see the basis on which you claim "many PL fans take pride in the fact that messi would nt succeed against stoke"

 

[ajt09]

To be honest, I think it's a good job he's not coming to the premiership. Mike hates him remember. Every matchday we'd probably get a rant about him

 

[Mike.]

To be honest, I think it's a good job he's not coming to the premiership. Mike hates him remember. Every matchday we'd probably get a rant about him

i hate him, his silky feet, his magnetic ball control, stunning turn of space, and most of all his pure matchwinning ability

---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

To be honest, I think it's a good job he's not coming to the premiership. Mike hates him remember. Every matchday we'd probably get a rant about him

i hate him, his silky feet, his magnetic ball control, stunning turn of space, and most of all his pure matchwinning ability

 

[ajt09]

i hate him, his silky feet, his magnetic ball control, stunning turn of space, and most of all his pure matchwinning ability

Can see where you're coming from definately lol. I'd just sit there absolutely hypnotised with a blank expression on face in front of the tv. And after ripping our back 4 and midfield to shreds would call him all the names under the sun-in appreciation of course. That's one player I'm so glad Man City can never get.

 

[fuelledbypassion]

The advantage in Spain is more than slight, which is why players produced at Spanish academies are so successful at the moment. Players like Cesc and Silva are dominating the Prem yet are fringe players for the Spanish NT. That's how good Spain's youth system is. As for the second paragraph, I agree completely. Why is it then if Messi struggles for Argentina or "couldn't do it if he played for Stoke," places where his service is/would be poor should he be criticized?

Lastly, I'm not saying every PL fan is a fanboy. I'm simply criticizing a few that certainly seem like fanboys (and some pundits would fit into this category), and they seem to be quite visible. That's great that you like the Prem style. My only point is that the mentality of Rooney/Andy Gray/many PL fans that take pride in the fact that they don't think Messi/Barca could succeed against teams like Stoke is not only arrogant (do we hear La Liga fans say "I'd like to see them try that against Deportivo!" when they watch Chelsea?) but is hurting England. Because if Messi, Xavi, or Iniesta was at an English youth club at a young age, they would probably be cut by the team because the coach would say "I'd like to see them try that against Stoke." If you agree with that mentality and would rather have triers than technically gifted players (there's also this belief here that the two are mutually exclusive, which I don't get) than that's fine, but I personally think it's holding back your national team and is why we really haven't seen England do well in a while, while Spain, which has more patience with some of these smaller, technically gifted players even if they're not really fast, has been so good recently.

To be fair though, it's not Spain that's producing them, it's Barcelona. The closest we have in terms of footballing philosophy is Arsenal, and Wenger has more often than not shopped abroad rather than developing English talent. It has been fantastic to see the rise of Wilshere this season, and I'm hoping for more of the same from Arsenal. Clubs like United and Chelsea will rarely develop such technical skills in players, and are unlikely to completely change philosophy to encourage technical football. The physical and mental strength is more important in the Premiership, hence the dominance of the two sides in recent years. It definitely looks like the English national team are trying to change their ways, but we need the top English clubs to produce the talent to do so.

 

[Mike.]

To be fair though, it's not Spain that's producing them, it's Barcelona. The closest we have in terms of footballing philosophy is Arsenal, and Wenger has more often than not shopped abroad rather than developing English talent. It has been fantastic to see the rise of Wilshere this season, and I'm hoping for more of the same from Arsenal. Clubs like United and Chelsea will rarely develop such technical skills in players, and are unlikely to completely change philosophy to encourage technical football. The physical and mental strength is more important in the Premiership, hence the dominance of the two sides in recent years. It definitely looks like the English national team are trying to change their ways, but we need the top English clubs to produce the talent to do so.

not sure i agree with this, we try to encourage all rounders, and our youth are quite technically gifted.

But one area we get punished, is the rule that that limits U-16s to 90 minutes of training. doesnt exist in spain or other the countries on the continent

 

[ajt09]

To be fair though, it's not Spain that's producing them, it's Barcelona. The closest we have in terms of footballing philosophy is Arsenal, and Wenger has more often than not shopped abroad rather than developing English talent. It has been fantastic to see the rise of Wilshere this season, and I'm hoping for more of the same from Arsenal. Clubs like United and Chelsea will rarely develop such technical skills in players, and are unlikely to completely change philosophy to encourage technical football. The physical and mental strength is more important in the Premiership, hence the dominance of the two sides in recent years. It definitely looks like the English national team are trying to change their ways, but we need the top English clubs to produce the talent to do so.

And not forgetting there's some real talent coming through in the divisions below aswell. It suddenly went from despair for England fans in terms of quality replacements for aging players, to much promise and a much brighter looking future.