Scottish Independence - Yay or Nay?

[Aannddyy]

Before all of English people go off on a rant can I just point out that it is only a minority of Scotland who want independence, they are in no position to attempt the referendum now, and even when it comes to it in 4 years time it would still be unlikely that Scotland will even vote for it. No idea why SNP want independence, they will end up bankrupt, like Ireland, it's just common sense not to do it. Can never see it happening.

 

[Jack Fulham]

We would no doubt be better off. Scotland receives a larger average tax received per person than England does, and it's mainly England generating that tax in the first place.

I imagine the same goes to N.Ireland.

 

[Chaz Sexington]

We would no doubt be better off. Scotland receives a larger average tax received per person than England does, and it's mainly England generating that tax in the first place.

Yep, but Scotland's very wary of governments she didn't elect. Last one (Thatcher) decided taxing Scots more than the English was a good idea... So I very much get Scots that want separation in case of Tories.

 

[Jamie.]

Found a new topic of discussion!

I think Scotland has the highest unemployment rates in the UK which is partly down to the fact that Scottish MSP's don't really get given too much in the way of dividends per person in their constituency as people in England would budget wise. I think most Scottish people would just want Devolution rather than independence, and thanks to Mr Blair they are getting more and more powers devolved every year Alex Salmonds main priority is to get the most money for Scotlands budget from Westminster and from there his MSP's can start completing their manifesto's they ran on (After all they aren't promise breakers like the Lib Dems), the main priority for the SNP is deliver to the Scottish people at local/regional level have a solid first term at Stormont and not even contemplate a referendum on independence until 2015, near the end of their 5 year term.

Don't really mind the SNP it is quite well balanced in its views on finance and social well being of the Scottish individual, Scotland booted out Labour because Labour let them down for too long and the SNP is the friendly alternative. To be honest independence wouldn't really be too good for Scotland since they would have to fund their own defence/welfare systems and that would genuinely be around 40 pct of GDP just maintaining them at current levels. Then they would have to create an entirely new law system with their own sovereign laws, along with policing restructure and housing policy reform...A huge expensive task which is why it probably is not going to be to favourable to Scottish people.

 

[Kris]

The oil isn't substantial enough - the Norwegians told the Scots that their idea of an oil fund was silly. There's almost no oil there, at all. When compared to Norway, who just found another few years worth of budgets, Scotland's minimal resources won't hold up. Scotland could do well in the future - but there are some problems that need to be addressed;

• Unemployment.
• Education.
• Health.

Scotland's got too high an unemployment rate for the pros to weigh up the cons. The system of education is good, but too many do worthless degrees or don't do any at all (this includes the EU as a whole, but Scotland as a small country would need expertise). Scottish health needs to be addressed as well, we're too unhealthy.

I would be all for greater devolution of power, but not for complete independence yet, at least until certain cultural aspects were sorted out.

This!!!

Worst possible idea ever, would kill us! We are struggling enough as it is, you just need to walk down almost every town centre in almost every town to see that.

Alex Samond is a ****** tool, the SNP are tools & the majority who vote for them are tools who have this idealistic notion that we would be better off without the rest of the UK. This isn't 1432 & we are not enslaved. Grow the **** up and start thinking with your heads people.

Rant over

 

[Sid]

As an Englishman, yay.

If I was Scottish, nay.

 

[Joel`]

Yep, but Scotland's very wary of governments she didn't elect. Last one (Thatcher) decided taxing Scots more than the English was a good idea... So I very much get Scots that want separation in case of Tories.

Would still be making your own grave and jumping into go independent though. Last time I checked it was about 60-40 in favour of against though.

I wonder if the SNP have actually rationally thought about the costs and benefits of this move, same with the BNP and the economic cost of getting rid of migrants that they're seemingly oblivious to.

 

[ajt09]

Would still be making your own grave and jumping into go independent though. Last time I checked it was about 60-40 in favour of against though.

I wonder if the SNP have actually rationally thought about the costs and benefits of this move, same with the BNP and the economic cost of getting rid of migrants that they're seemingly oblivious to.

In a word.......no

 

[Fish Hunter]

Iceland was a part of Denmark until 1944, just see how bad they are doing now... I vote no for a complete independence, but support the status as an autonomous part of the UK. The only thing that benefits an independent Scotland is the national identity. Commerce in a union between England and Scotland is far better for the economy. I think there are far more benefits in a union than a split up.

 

[Chaz Sexington]

Would still be making your own grave and jumping into go independent though. Last time I checked it was about 60-40 in favour of against though.

I wonder if the SNP have actually rationally thought about the costs and benefits of this move, same with the BNP and the economic cost of getting rid of migrants that they're seemingly oblivious to.

As of now, yes.

Iceland was a part of Denmark until 1944, just see how bad they are doing now... I vote no for a complete independence, but support the status as an autonomous part of the UK. The only thing that benefits an independent Scotland is the national identity. Commerce in a union between England and Scotland is far better for the economy. I think there are far more benefits in a union than a split up.

No idea why SNP want independence, they will end up bankrupt, like Ireland, it's just common sense not to do it. Can never see it happening.

Norway was a part of Denmark for 300 years. We call it the 300 Year Long Sleep. My great great uncle was the mind behind the dissolution of the Union between Norway and Sweden. Who's top of the ******* Scandinavian mountain? **** right, it's the fjord monkeys. We currently treat Swedes much like Americans treat Mexicans - cheap labour.

Trying to draw similarities between Scotland, Ireland and Iceland is flawed - Ireland and Iceland were doing fantastically until a small amount of people (bankers) ****** up their own country. Economists were speaking of the Celtic Tiger, as Ireland economic growth was the envy of the world. Iceland (and Canada) were maybe the only countries capable of challenging Norway for standard of living.

As for bankruptcy, the UK is far worse off than the US when it comes to debt (relative to BNP). Sweden introduced a very important amendment to their constitution - the government aren't allow deficit spending. However, the UK's governmental politicians are utterly hopeless and wouldn't do this as they care too much about their voter base (South/North divide). However, if the UK gets a string of Tory governments that marginalise the Scots, I can very easily see Scotland leaving the Union. And have you checked the massive overrepresentation of Scots in the armed forces?

I am hammered so I'm quite proud of this post.

 

[Mads2506]

Lol. Norway may be rich as fudge, but don't go acting like you own Scandinavia now

Sweden and Denmark can own you anytime

 

[Jack]

Devolution of power = yes.

I just wrote an essay about nationalism and nation in Scotland, cultural identity etc. Had some political reasoning to it.

I dunno whether an independent Scotland is good it bad though, maybe they feel it's right because of the lack of effort from the major parties to include them in anything political.

 

[Chaz Sexington]

Lol. Norway may be rich as fudge, but don't go acting like you own Scandinavia now

Sweden and Denmark can own you anytime

Germany prawned Denmark last time round, Norway never surrendered And anyone could beat the living daylights out of Sweden; it's Scandinavia's retarded cousin!

 

[Fish Hunter]

Norway was a part of Denmark for 300 years. We call it the 300 Year Long Sleep. My great great uncle was the mind behind the dissolution of the Union between Norway and Sweden. Who's top of the ******* Scandinavian mountain? **** right, it's the fjord monkeys. We currently treat Swedes much like Americans treat Mexicans - cheap labour.

Trying to draw similarities between Scotland, Ireland and Iceland is flawed - Ireland and Iceland were doing fantastically until a small amount of people (bankers) ****** up their own country. Economists were speaking of the Celtic Tiger, as Ireland economic growth was the envy of the world. Iceland (and Canada) were maybe the only countries capable of challenging Norway for standard of living.

As for bankruptcy, the UK is far worse off than the US when it comes to debt (relative to BNP). Sweden introduced a very important amendment to their constitution - the government aren't allow deficit spending. However, the UK's governmental politicians are utterly hopeless and wouldn't do this as they care too much about their voter base (South/North divide). However, if the UK gets a string of Tory governments that marginalise the Scots, I can very easily see Scotland leaving the Union. And have you checked the massive overrepresentation of Scots in the armed forces?

I am hammered so I'm quite proud of this post.

Bullshit. Norway's economy is 99% oil and 1% salmon so I don't see the sense in this post. If Iceland and Ireland had tons of oil, they'd basically be as good off like Norway.

Keep in mind I have nothing against Norwegians.

 

[Lee]

Bullshit. Norway's economy is 99% oil and 1% salmon so I don't see the sense in this post. If Iceland and Ireland had tons of oil, they'd basically be as good off like Norway.

Keep in mind I have nothing against Norwegians.

So you're basically denying the Iceland financial crisis ever happened and they're simply how they are now because they don't have Oil? oO)

 

[Jamie.]

Norway was a part of Denmark for 300 years. We call it the 300 Year Long Sleep. My great great uncle was the mind behind the dissolution of the Union between Norway and Sweden. Who's top of the ******* Scandinavian mountain? **** right, it's the fjord monkeys. We currently treat Swedes much like Americans treat Mexicans - cheap labour.

Trying to draw similarities between Scotland, Ireland and Iceland is flawed - Ireland and Iceland were doing fantastically until a small amount of people (bankers) ****** up their own country. Economists were speaking of the Celtic Tiger, as Ireland economic growth was the envy of the world. Iceland (and Canada) were maybe the only countries capable of challenging Norway for standard of living.

As for bankruptcy, the UK is far worse off than the US when it comes to debt (relative to BNP). Sweden introduced a very important amendment to their constitution - the government aren't allow deficit spending. However, the UK's governmental politicians are utterly hopeless and wouldn't do this as they care too much about their voter base (South/North divide). However, if the UK gets a string of Tory governments that marginalise the Scots, I can very easily see Scotland leaving the Union. And have you checked the massive overrepresentation of Scots in the armed forces?

I am hammered so I'm quite proud of this post.

I agree with the point on devolution, and further powers devolved to give Scotland's goverment more ability to serve its people something where Labour failed them over the past 15 or so years. But some points maybe not so much...

For example:

• Irelands economy was overinflated, it had no physical/financial assets just hearsay and market speculation about property. The second that the property market hit freefall was the end of the Ireland growth, they built too quickly and in the end the supply of property outdid the demand by a good inflationary 40 percent, so basically they built too many big projects keeping the prices high and in the end the people who had the capability of buying them (Teachers, Doctors etc) were already supplied so there was a huge property market bubble burst. Then you have Iceland whos only real financial sector was Bank based handling mainly foreign assets/investment so when they collapsed who could be held liable? Who was going to bail them out and take their sovereign debt? The actual money they handled was not in Iceland so when they went under everyone looked to Iceland but the money never got to Iceland so the government had to find money from thin air to buyout their banks. The IMF/EU would never bail out banks for competitive trading reasons and the fact they only bail out countries, the Icelandic government couldn't buy and pay back all of the banks customers since it would bankrupt the country 3 times over so that was the definition of stupidity on the bankers part since they had no assets to 'liquidate' if they went under.

• There is a reason we are the UK and not Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland we are stronger economically, militarily, politically together than apart. The minerals of Wales with the fishing/industrial strength of Scotland with the Financial capital centre of London is what makes the country so rich in terms of GDP. We have the worlds second biggest finance capital, the FTSE has billions of money pass through it every week so we are by no means comparable to Norway, Sweden or Iceland smaller economies with all due respect.

• Those countries can afford to do the anti deficit measures since that is preventive of the future and doesn't harm the present whereas is our government said no more deficit's overnight it would have to trim hundreds of billions of assets off overnight to payback the loan so thats irrelevant.

• The US has just hit its debt ceiling of 13.4 TRILLION dollars, so they are in many terms worst off than us, and over here the Tories are cutting our way out of the recession rather than the Obama policy of stimulating their way out.

• We are so small in terms of land mass but because we are the UK government and have a UK economy we are able to be the worlds second biggest spenders on defence which is some achievement. Unlike other European countries we have a welfare system which many don't like but it does keep help give everyone in England a semi-high standard of living.

• We still have the 2nd best credit rating in the EU just behind Germany and have the biggest military capability in the EU and that isn't through England its through the UK. and the UK governments osterity cuts are too deep in my personal opinion but your saying they aren't enough???
  
  
• 18 pct from the police budget, 10 pct from defence (possibly 12 pct), 8 pct on education and a few deeper cuts in social care/local council budgets. We have an extremely strong GDP rating and inflation probably will hit 5 pct with the CPI by the end of the year but with a strong private sector coming out that should decline to 3.5 pct in 2 years from now. All I'm trying to say is economically/socially speaking th UK union has been a pretty tremendous success for the people of the countries and we get on pretty well to be honest, if someone attacked Scotland surely we would hunt them down with the UKs finest security forces?...(Abdul basset al...whatever he was called)

• All SNP will do is get further powers devolved from Westminster which is a good thing, the Chancellor will say to Salmond that if he comes back at next years budget with evidence of sector growth in Scotland he will get more money for the Scottish budget and that works for everyone.

I understand the idea of not having any budget deficits where you have to take out loans, but if you can afford the loans and it grows your economy it makes sense short-medium term to do that just ask Americans. If we didn't take this path years ago we would have private healthcare, private land ownership and alot of other privileges we enjoy not being around so I don't take the point of smaller countries that have no security threats that no deficit is the best way forward.

 

[Mads2506]

Bullshit. Norway's economy is 99% oil and 1% salmon so I don't see the sense in this post. If Iceland and Ireland had tons of oil, they'd basically be as good off like Norway.

Keep in mind I have nothing against Norwegians.

To be fair Iceland has so much water energy they can afford heat in the sidewalks. Iceland got broke because their banks and government messed up big time.

 

[Chaz Sexington]

Bullshit. Norway's economy is 99% oil and 1% salmon so I don't see the sense in this post. If Iceland and Ireland had tons of oil, they'd basically be as good off like Norway.

Keep in mind I have nothing against Norwegians.

Norway's economy is oil-based and in dire need of diversifying - Dimmu Borgir, a black metal band, was among our top 20 exports a few years ago. However, Norway could still have flourished without oil - look at Sweden, who don't have the oil but still the same quality of life. Iceland and Ireland has a completely different economy; Ireland was a capitalist country and Iceland got ****** due to a handful of people in charge of a private bank that got bailed out. However, Scandinavian countries have a completely different outlook when it comes to government spending than most of the world - don't deficit spend, especially during high conjecture periods. Scotland has a different economy from both Ireland and Iceland, though if Scotland focused all their spending on;

• Renewable energy (Strathclyde University was in the economist for raising 110M£ from local businesses to fund it)
• Kickstart the docks and produce high-end ships.
• Stem cell research pioneering. Legislation and funding could easily attract top scientists here.
• Personalised medicine. Essentially making person-specific medicine.
• National service. Tidy up the neds, discipline and work experience. It will go a long way.

Scotland has got potential, but as it, like Britain, has got pretty feckless politicians and too many people interested in getting free stuff from the government instead of working towards it, I don't see it happening any time soon.

However, I am all for the Scandinavian countries uniting as a Viking Trade Federation. We'd be the 8th biggest economy in the world and our cultures are similar enough for it to work. We could also use it to counterbalance the Teutonic influence in the EU.

 

[Joel`]

Norway's economy is oil-based and in dire need of diversifying - Dimmu Borgir, a black metal band, was among our top 20 exports a few years ago. However, Norway could still have flourished without oil - look at Sweden, who don't have the oil but still the same quality of life. Iceland and Ireland has a completely different economy; Ireland was a capitalist country and Iceland got ****** due to a handful of people in charge of a private bank that got bailed out. However, Scandinavian countries have a completely different outlook when it comes to government spending than most of the world - don't deficit spend, especially during high conjecture periods. Scotland has a different economy from both Ireland and Iceland, though if Scotland focused all their spending on;

• Renewable energy (Strathclyde University was in the economist for raising 110M£ from local businesses to fund it)
• Kickstart the docks and produce high-end ships.
• Stem cell research pioneering. Legislation and funding could easily attract top scientists here.
• Personalised medicine. Essentially making person-specific medicine.
• National service. Tidy up the neds, discipline and work experience. It will go a long way.

Scotland has got potential, but as it, like Britain, has got pretty feckless politicians and too many people interested in getting free stuff from the government instead of working towards it, I don't see it happening any time soon.

However, I am all for the Scandinavian countries uniting as a Viking Trade Federation. We'd be the 8th biggest economy in the world and our cultures are similar enough for it to work. We could also use it to counterbalance the Teutonic influence in the EU.

Apparently Gordon Brown needs some economics lessons from Norwegians then.

 

[Fish Hunter]

So you're basically denying the Iceland financial crisis ever happened and they're simply how they are now because they don't have Oil? oO)

No I don't. I think you misunderstood it completely. If you followed the entire conversation, you could have understood it. My point was that you can't compare the Norwegian economy to the economies of Ireland and Iceland.