solid counter attacking 4411

[dbs86]

so after experimenting with a successful 343/352 formation with penarol and then velez i noticed in the argentinian league teams concede Alot of goals so i decided to try and make a solid counter attacking tactic designed to soak up pressure and ****** goals on the break and ideally win 1-0 or 2-0.
The problem is im in my 5th season and my velez team is filled with very good players so going counter attacking is usually detrimental to my league form as such i only use this formation away from home against bigger teams but i thought i would post it for others to try it out and see what success they have with it.

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here is the basic shape of the team, as you can see the two banks of four provide defensive shape and are hard to break down, while the teams main goal threats come from the shadow striker and the defensive forward as both of these players aggressively close down the opposition giving them less time on the ball and forcing mistakes which can then lead to quick counters and goal scoring opportunities.

View attachment 339018

here i will give a run down of the instructions,

mentality: counter as this is a counterattacking tactic.

fluidity: balanced, as it balances player movement with them keeping shape and also stops the midfielders from offering to much attacking presence which is vital to keeping the two banks of four, as they will only offer transitions its only the SS and DF who are really attacking, although the BBM and WM's will still drift forward offering support when needed.


player instructions.

retain possession, work ball into box, lower tempo: the passing style when we have the ball is to keep it in possession slowly trying to work openings at a lower tempo, unless there is a counter attacking opportunity then the counter mentality will step in and the attack will happen at a quick pace.

pass into space, run at defence: this is how the team attempt to penetrate the opposition, when a counter attacking opportunity presents itself the team will pass the ball into the space and once the pass is received the player will look to run at the defence before shooting or setting up a teammate.

play narrower, be more disciplined, drop deeper: our defensive shape, the two banks of four will sit deep and narrow stifling the available space being difficult to play through and break down, be more disciplined also makes the players take less risks going forward and if the attack breaks down the will quickly snap back to their starting positions in the two banks of four.

hassle opponents, stay on feet: our defensive style, hassle opponents is used to win the ball back quickly but in conjunction with be more disciplined and drop deeper it is done only in our half when the tackle looks like it will successfully be won and when the tackle is made stay on feet is used to not over commit and give away free kicks in dangerous positions, also by staying on feet once won we can release the ball quickly to counter attack.

player roles and duties that need highlighting.

the back four are pretty standard FB on auto only offer attacking threat when its on and look to keep it tight on either flank, the CB's are on defend as they are protecting the goal and not doing anything fancy.

wide midfielders on either side offer the most structure to the teams shape, they dont over commit and they maintain defensive shape, this isnt detrimental though as they will still get forward when needed to offer support but only when safe. (if you have used wide midfielders before you will know how strong they can be as all rounders on the flanks). Auto duty just sets them to counter so adds a bit more defensive resilience to the teams shape.

CM defend: sits in front of the defence looking to win the ball back and break up the play this guy should be your midfield destroyer/ hatchet man gattuso, mascherano, busquets, etc. he is not set to ball winning midfielder as they deviate from their position too much looking to win the ball back and as such drag your shape about to much, as a CM def he will hold shape centrally and pressure players near him to regain the ball.

box to box midfielder: is the link man of the team he helps out the defence, offers the transition to attack and will then will make runs late into the box to finish off moves or offer support. Vital to the teams shape as he offers support in bot offense and defense and helps stop the isolation of the front two.

The reason this tactic works is the split between the back 9 and the front 2, the back 9 keep the two banks of 4, hold their shape and only offer support via the BBM and WM's going forward when the ball is lost they snap back to the defensive shape of two banks of 4. Now i will explain how the front two make this counter attacking formation work.

shadow striker: this guy is awesome he constantly pressures the opposition, closing down the player on the ball and is always looking to craft moves on the counter and score goals. Vital to the system as the back 9 sit and hold position keeping it tight this guy is proactive in taking the game to the oppositions defense and midfielders giving them less time on the ball to construct moves and forcing errors.

defensive forward: again is vital to the system pressuring defenders on the ball, stopping teams playing out from the back which they will be doing if your the away team or the underdog in a match. In attacking situations he will still attack the goal and shoot if its on but mainly he will look to play in the shadow striker who will be running in from a deeper position.

Player instructions: the only players with any instructions are the front two as giving extra instructions to the back 9 will make them more likely to break team shape and discipline which we dont want they need to work as a strong unit

shadow striker: move into channels, dribble more and shoot more often, when in possession we want this guy to be running at the defense looking to shoot whenever there is a sniff of goal as a long range screamer could be the only goal of the game and as were countering any sort of shot could be the goal we need so shooting more often gives more chances at goal. Move into channels so that when hes attacking he will be running into space between the defenders dragging their shape out opening up room for the box to box midfielder to run into behind him.

defensive forward: shoot more often, dribble more, again this guy looks to play in the shadow striker which is good but some times shooting himself is the better option so shoot more often will make him shoot a bit more in opportune positions,

as i said at the beginning of the post i havent used this formation too much as im a big team but when i have used it away from home and against other big teams it has worked quite well garnering a few 1-0's and some games you score a few more due to more opportunities being made. i would say you need to train this formation for a bit to gain some familiarity with it i wold also suggest try to use this in the last stages of a game to close out a result while still offering a threat going forward.

 

[Fusershift]

If you have a counter mentality why do you have retain possession? Also why do you have lower tempo. Don't you want to counter attack quickly? One more point, if you want to counter don't use hassle opponents because you want the other team to come at you not vice-versa.

I would get rid of Retain Possession, Work all into box, Lower tempo, Play narrower, and Run at defence.

 

[zinedinezidane10]

If you have a counter mentality why do you have retain possession? Also why do you have lower tempo. Don't you want to counter attack quickly? One more point, if you want to counter don't use hassle opponents because you want the other team to come at you not vice-versa.

I would get rid of Retain Possession, Work all into box, Lower tempo, Play narrower, and Run at defence.

What ever you just wrote is completely not true. There is nothing wrong with the instructions you listed, which might hinder his counter attacking tactic.

Even if he has retain possession on, they will still be relatively direct when passing. Work ball into the box just lowers the amount of long shots taken, which has its pros/cons. Run at defence wont make it any less effective as a counter tactic, and for lower tempo and play narrower it will still be a very fast tempo when on the break. Let me remind you that the counter mentality has a lower d-line, plays narrower and plays with a lower tempo. But as soon as the counter is ON, it will increase in tempo and mentality.

For the hassle opponent, it increases closing down and d-line, it all depends on how he sets up his team to get into positions from where they can counter. You dont pick your team instructions on how it should play out when you are ON the counter, you pick your team instructions on how you act when not countering, and when not on the ball.

 

[bluebird123]

What ever you just wrote is completely not true. There is nothing wrong with the instructions you listed, which might hinder his counter attacking tactic.

Even if he has retain possession on, they will still be relatively direct when passing. Work ball into the box just lowers the amount of long shots taken, which has its pros/cons. Run at defence wont make it any less effective as a counter tactic, and for lower tempo and play narrower it will still be a very fast tempo when on the break. Let me remind you that the counter mentality has a lower d-line, plays narrower and plays with a lower tempo. But as soon as the counter is ON, it will increase in tempo and mentality.

For the hassle opponent, it increases closing down and d-line, it all depends on how he sets up his team to get into positions from where they can counter. You dont pick your team instructions on how it should play out when you are ON the counter, you pick your team instructions on how you act when not countering, and when not on the ball.

This 100 times over.

It's why counter attack tactics seem to fail a lot with people. They make their roles and duties very defensive and then add defensive shouts which makes it impossible to get out of your own half.

When a counter attack is available (when you out-number the opposition) you are very direct, your tempo is high along with your width. Having shorter passing or retain possession is for when you have the ball and you ARE NOT counter attacking. Meaning you are patient with the ball, drawing the opposition onto you then, when you out-number them, hit them fast. The counter mentality has always been a patient mentality for reasons I've listed above.

Work ball into box is something that just reduces long shots, why that has to be removed for a counter strategy is absolutely baffling. Maybe you can explain, Fusershift?

Lower tempo is fine, as for reasons I've outlined above. You draw them onto you by keeping the ball. In all likelihood, when you play counter you are doing it against stronger sides, so they will chase you all over the pitch. Being slow on the ball, moving it around means you will have more chance to CA because of the space left.

Narrower, again, why does he have to remove it? I'd only agree with run at defence seen as he has pass into space on which imo contradicts each other. RAD - Against weaker sides who are parking the bus and you have good dribblers. PIS - When the space is there for through balls which is perfect for countering.

Hassle is a shout I rarely use but it can work in a counter system (maybe not with a deep defensive line as your players will be tired quickly). I'd say Dortmund hassle opponents and are a counter attacking team. Winning the ball high up and then hitting them with direct passing and pace is fine.

Anyway. In regards to OP's tactic it is logical (apart from the automatic duties, they are on defend because of your mentality, change to attack or support otherwise you are too predictable and you have no wide play). I'd remove run at defence and that's about it.

Final note. People need to realise these two things;

Your formation is your defensive shape. The OP will have two banks of four when defending no matter what. When he attacks it can easily transition into a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 with shouts and roles. People need to notice this.

Shouts are for when you are on the ball, some are for when you are off but the majority are for when you are on the ball.

 

[dbs86]

thanks for the feedback guys, i have been trying this tactic out with Fortaleza and at the same time attempting the brazilian hero achievement and it started off really well, some high scoring games like 4-0, 4-1, 3-0 and a couple of grinded 1-0 wins. but then I started to be found after a while, i lost a few games and had some 0-0 draws which suggests i was perhaps a bit negative in the games i failed to score in or was playing against better oppostion who could absorb my counters and still penetrate my defence.

Personally i think the tactic is a bit too negative after seeing it in action so i am going to make a few changes and see how that improves it,

I will remove run at defence as if the opportunity to dribble is on im sure my players will do that, and this just gives the opponent more chance to win the ball back in a tackle, besides my team are in the brazilian 3rd division so dont have any exceptional dribblers.

Removed hassle opponents, it was quite effective when opposition had ball in midfield but once transferred to their strikers all this did was made the closest defender close the ball carrier down and they would then usually play a little ball into the gap left behind the defender for their strike partner to run onto. I saw this happen a few times in games so i have swapped this with mark tighter, the theory being that instead of closing them down when they receive the ball, the defenders will be marking them closer before the ball is played up from midfield so an opportunity to tackle will be on when the pass is being received, if the midfielder decides to pass at all due to defenders being in closer attendance it may delay the oppositions forward pass.

as bluebird 123 suggests i have also set the wide midfielders to attack and fullbacks to support. I want to see how defensivly solid the wide midfielders perform with an attack duty but i may switch them to wingers if they dont offer decent penetration.

One last point I my shadow striker and defensive forward pairing sometimes didnt perform at all well in games but I will put this down to a lack of real support and a too defensive midfield behind them so I will continue with this pairing but if it doesnt yield better results i may have to change the defensive forward to either complete forward support for the movement around the box or target man support for the linkups and flick ons

thanks again for the constructive feedback I will let you know how the changes get on

 

[bluebird123]

thanks for the feedback guys, i have been trying this tactic out with Fortaleza and at the same time attempting the brazilian hero achievement and it started off really well, some high scoring games like 4-0, 4-1, 3-0 and a couple of grinded 1-0 wins. but then I started to be found after a while, i lost a few games and had some 0-0 draws which suggests i was perhaps a bit negative in the games i failed to score in or was playing against better oppostion who could absorb my counters and still penetrate my defence.

Personally i think the tactic is a bit too negative after seeing it in action so i am going to make a few changes and see how that improves it,

I will remove run at defence as if the opportunity to dribble is on im sure my players will do that, and this just gives the opponent more chance to win the ball back in a tackle, besides my team are in the brazilian 3rd division so dont have any exceptional dribblers.

Removed hassle opponents, it was quite effective when opposition had ball in midfield but once transferred to their strikers all this did was made the closest defender close the ball carrier down and they would then usually play a little ball into the gap left behind the defender for their strike partner to run onto. I saw this happen a few times in games so i have swapped this with mark tighter, the theory being that instead of closing them down when they receive the ball, the defenders will be marking them closer before the ball is played up from midfield so an opportunity to tackle will be on when the pass is being received, if the midfielder decides to pass at all due to defenders being in closer attendance it may delay the oppositions forward pass.

as bluebird 123 suggests i have also set the wide midfielders to attack and fullbacks to support. I want to see how defensivly solid the wide midfielders perform with an attack duty but i may switch them to wingers if they dont offer decent penetration.

One last point I my shadow striker and defensive forward pairing sometimes didnt perform at all well in games but I will put this down to a lack of real support and a too defensive midfield behind them so I will continue with this pairing but if it doesnt yield better results i may have to change the defensive forward to either complete forward support for the movement around the box or target man support for the linkups and flick ons

thanks again for the constructive feedback I will let you know how the changes get on

Nice update.

The WM's will offer great penetration. On my current save I had Tom Ince score 10 and assist 11 from being a WM-A with PI's like sit narrower and cut inside with ball. It made him work like an IF-A but he tracked back and helped the defender. It's a great role which is underutilised by a lot of FM players.

Either target man or CF would be a great choice for a lone striker, especially with an SS behind them.

In regards to your flanks, if you have a good full back who can go forward then I'd recommend having him on attack and the winger in front on support. It just adds a nice dimension to your attack and more unpredictability

 

[rocheyb]

I've had success with a Deep-Lying Forward_Support playing ahead of a Shadow Striker_Attack in a 4-4-1-1. The descriptions that pop up when you hover over those positions in the Player Instructions section clearly identify them as roles that are designed to go together.

A good Shadow Striker will get involved in build-up play, work the ball wide and then hit the front at pace to meet the incoming cross. The Deep-Lying Forward can work the channels during more central attacks and follow up for rebounds from the SS's shots. In one high-scoring season, I got 32 goals from Jay Rodriguez as the SS and the same again from one of my rotating DLF's (a Mexican regen).

Later on, I bought a world class Trequartista and played him in the No.10 position, on Attack duty with encouragement to Dribble More, Get Further Forward, More Direct Passes. I switched the front man to Complete Forward_Support; Move Into Channels, Pass Shorter, Shoot More Often. This worked well on the counter attack, with the Trequartista forcing the opposition defenders to back-peddle or commit themselves to challenges that left space in behind them or drew free-kicks in dangerous areas.