Struggling extremely against top teams with Southampton

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Uygar89

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Hi everyone,
so as you can see from my fixture, it is quite running well, I am dominating almost every team, but when it comes to top teams, I am really struggling. I can not find any shots and cant badly create chances. It seems like whenever I face top teams, my players are getting nervous. Even the easiest 1 meter passes do not arrive, doing silly mistakes like running into 3 defenders instead of passing the ball to the space and so on... But I am wondering, why it works out against other teams... Space is there anyway, but seems like against top teams my players do not have the nerves...
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You have an average team, so it's to be expected to struggle against top teams, no?
 
Not that average, that I can not create a chance at home against mighty Liverpool... Does not sound realistic for me...
 
Uygar89 said:
Not that average, that I can not create a chance at home against mighty Liverpool... Does not sound realistic for me...
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You need to rein in the tactic. It's pushing far too many forward against teams BETTER than you.
 
I agree with WJ, you need to adapt your tactics against teams that are better. Perhaps play more structured game plan instead of fluid, stick to positions etc so you're not so open. Some players are not good in big games so check the player personality types
 
As you might have seen my fixture, I have never lost with more than 2 goals against top teams. It is always very close, most chances they create is because I miss very easily the ball. I think I am already stable defensively, especially considering all those tactics here, which play with 3 attacking duty midfielders, plus 2 attacking minded wingbacks and two box to box cms, I dont think that this is is the problem... Also if you invite the oppoistion for pressure in FM, you will always lose... They will anyway score...
 
Uygar89 said:
As you might have seen my fixture, I have never lost with more than 2 goals against top teams. It is always very close, most chances they create is because I miss very easily the ball. I think I am already stable defensively, especially considering all those tactics here, which play with 3 attacking duty midfielders, plus 2 attacking minded wingbacks and two box to box cms, I dont think that this is is the problem... Also if you invite the oppoistion for pressure in FM, you will always lose... They will anyway score...
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All of this is wrong and you didn't read my post properly.

Firstly, don't judge proper tactics with what's created in the download section.

Secondly, just because it's less aggressive than those tactics, doesn't mean it's not aggressive.

Thirdly, you can invite pressure. You can't roll over though. There's a difference.

Aaaand lastly, I never said sit back and invite pressure. I said rein it in. Here's a clue - when you're attacking and you lose possession, who's sitting back and defending? How many of the opposition are rushing them? Do you have others fairly close by to help out fairly quicky?
 
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empty your cup my friend, just a bit. its you who wanted some suggestions or recommendations right?
Ever heard of low block and high pressure? u can set it up like that against a bigger team. When i was working on my formation and tactics i felt that inviting them to your half usually ends up with a goal but as WJ said rein them in (just like what AMadrid does) is another way of playing against the big guns.
Another thing i feel that is not so efficient would be your box2box. having that and a RPM would be good if ya doing a high pressing but against a better opponent who can pass well ya players are just going to be headless chickens running around trying to get the ball off the opposition (and usually rendering your team out of shape which u know what that means or even worse more cards). Try a CM or DLP with support , both rpm and b2b together are just too aggressive in pressing plus they are natural roamers for the mid. hence the opposition can easily break your teams shape. couple with bombing wing backs and wingers are usually in the AM position it spells disaster when they break your centre.
you can stick to your original tactic since its been working fine for you. but when ya going against the big guns ie MU then u need to switch it a bit. U cant plug and play anymore and expect to get the same results day in day out. need to react, thats why u need to watch your games. i dont think i ever had a game where i do not really need to tweak at all to get the best out of the team.
 
I love posts like this.


Can i get advice?

Sure....

Your advice is wrong.
 
Keith Ang said:
empty your cup my friend, just a bit. its you who wanted some suggestions or recommendations right?
Ever heard of low block and high pressure? u can set it up like that against a bigger team. When i was working on my formation and tactics i felt that inviting them to your half usually ends up with a goal but as WJ said rein them in (just like what AMadrid does) is another way of playing against the big guns.
Another thing i feel that is not so efficient would be your box2box. having that and a RPM would be good if ya doing a high pressing but against a better opponent who can pass well ya players are just going to be headless chickens running around trying to get the ball off the opposition (and usually rendering your team out of shape which u know what that means or even worse more cards). Try a CM or DLP with support , both rpm and b2b together are just too aggressive in pressing plus they are natural roamers for the mid. hence the opposition can easily break your teams shape. couple with bombing wing backs and wingers are usually in the AM position it spells disaster when they break your centre.
you can stick to your original tactic since its been working fine for you. but when ya going against the big guns ie MU then u need to switch it a bit. U cant plug and play anymore and expect to get the same results day in day out. need to react, thats why u need to watch your games. i dont think i ever had a game where i do not really need to tweak at all to get the best out of the team.
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sorry if I sounded harsh and disrespectful :( thanks for your detailed response. I never heard of that, what exactly do you mean with low block high pressure? deep d-line plus aggressive tackling?
I will reconsider the two cm roles, as I personally feal that its bit too much roaming and movement
 
its all good bud. we are here to share. nothing is set in the stone.
Low block is basically parking the bus. u defend deep
i mean high press not pressure (my bad i apologise) means u press them as soon as u lose the ball.
basically the combo is for ie when u atk and u lose the ball in the 3rd half of the field, u get your players to pressure/press the opposition. but when that doesnt work well the whole team turtles into a low block mentality and everyone gets behind the ball. this is basically how teams coached by Simeone, Conte and Heynckes plays. ofc there are variants to it but thats the basic idea.
when u do a gegenpressing on a superior team theres always a chance u will get counter. and since these teams are with much more quality players the counter usually results in a goal. but when u have a superior team then the high press that u usually do is less dangerous because less technical players do more mistake when being pressured.
hence understanding some of these tactic ideas and plays will help u on doing that changes during the match to enable u a victory
 
My favourite tactic is based on the old Man U way. Play with strong wingers, get the ball to both flanks and cross the ball. In my save I have been playing for 16yrs now (2032) and about 90% of those years I have been the number one club with the most crosses, out crossing the team in second place.

I play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1

I have the CM as box-to-box and the LW and RW as Wingers(attack) and the Striker as AF

Let me know how that works
 
Keith Ang said:
its all good bud. we are here to share. nothing is set in the stone.
Low block is basically parking the bus. u defend deep
i mean high press not pressure (my bad i apologise) means u press them as soon as u lose the ball.
basically the combo is for ie when u atk and u lose the ball in the 3rd half of the field, u get your players to pressure/press the opposition. but when that doesnt work well the whole team turtles into a low block mentality and everyone gets behind the ball. this is basically how teams coached by Simeone, Conte and Heynckes plays. ofc there are variants to it but thats the basic idea.
when u do a gegenpressing on a superior team theres always a chance u will get counter. and since these teams are with much more quality players the counter usually results in a goal. but when u have a superior team then the high press that u usually do is less dangerous because less technical players do more mistake when being pressured.
hence understanding some of these tactic ideas and plays will help u on doing that changes during the match to enable u a victory
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ok, now I understand. well, have been trying to get simeones tactic work in fm 16 and 17, but unfortunately it does not work with the defending. 1st: wingers not too narrow, 2nd: strikers, even when set as defensive forward (defend duty) are not deep enough as irl and 3rd. how can you set up pressing strategy for the case of losing the ball and for the case when opposition coming into your half and trying to build up a play? what I think about is maybe defensive mentality + deep d-line + very high closing down and add to that at least one defensive forward and one bwm in the team. could it be it worth to try? also what I noticed is, whenever I play with a target man, he is automatically forcing my defenders to play long even though I have them on short passing and also build up play from behind. its not like there would be no other passing option close to them. does it have something to do with the role? for example any playmaker roles also tend to get more passes. just want to recreate a target man role in a modern way, where he is the target in oppositions half and not when I have the ball in my own third...
 
Uygar89 said:
ok, now I understand. well, have been trying to get simeones tactic work in fm 16 and 17, but unfortunately it does not work with the defending. 1st: wingers not too narrow, 2nd: strikers, even when set as defensive forward (defend duty) are not deep enough as irl and 3rd. how can you set up pressing strategy for the case of losing the ball and for the case when opposition coming into your half and trying to build up a play? what I think about is maybe defensive mentality + deep d-line + very high closing down and add to that at least one defensive forward and one bwm in the team. could it be it worth to try? also what I noticed is, whenever I play with a target man, he is automatically forcing my defenders to play long even though I have them on short passing and also build up play from behind. its not like there would be no other passing option close to them. does it have something to do with the role? for example any playmaker roles also tend to get more passes. just want to recreate a target man role in a modern way, where he is the target in oppositions half and not when I have the ball in my own third...
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Defensive forwards don't track back enough for my taste. Try a Defensive striker on Defend duty with Very Fluid+Contain shape/mentality. Use a player with high work rate, teamwork, determination and bravery. This is the best you will get and probably won't be enough.
You can drop your strikers to AM strata, it's the only solution I've found, but then, when you have the ball, will act as AM not as strikers. You can customize a bit the role but for my taste they will come too deep to get the ball. Try it, perhaps works for you.
Wingers are bugged in fm17 and don't defend narrow. There is nothing you can do.
Don't understand question 3.
Target man is a very specific role. He acts as a magnet and almost overwrites any tactical instructions. If you have a TM, the ball will be sent to him more often than not, specially if your players don't have passing options but anyway they will do.
If you want a player act as a TM you can use a DLF and give him PI dribble less and essentially you will have a TM without the magnet effect. Try using a player with good strenght, balance and first touch, so he can control and hold up the ball.

You know I'm not a tactical genious (I totally suck) but perhaps this helps you.
 
Uygar89 said:
ok, now I understand. well, have been trying to get simeones tactic work in fm 16 and 17, but unfortunately it does not work with the defending. 1st: wingers not too narrow, 2nd: strikers, even when set as defensive forward (defend duty) are not deep enough as irl and 3rd. how can you set up pressing strategy for the case of losing the ball and for the case when opposition coming into your half and trying to build up a play? what I think about is maybe defensive mentality + deep d-line + very high closing down and add to that at least one defensive forward and one bwm in the team. could it be it worth to try? also what I noticed is, whenever I play with a target man, he is automatically forcing my defenders to play long even though I have them on short passing and also build up play from behind. its not like there would be no other passing option close to them. does it have something to do with the role? for example any playmaker roles also tend to get more passes. just want to recreate a target man role in a modern way, where he is the target in oppositions half and not when I have the ball in my own third...
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Well, u dont need your lone striker to be that deep tbh. this is especially when u counter. being that far back in your half as the lone striker will seriously put your team on the spot when u counter because theres just no one to aim for. hence its either held on too long (and gets pick pocket off) or wild punt up the field. which in both case u lose possession and your team goes back to their defensive shell.
u dont need a defensive mentality to set up the "high press, block low". btw u cant get an exact copy of simeones tactic to work here because apart from what i told u, he does play the trap/lure tactic to funnel the ball to where they want it to go and thats the hard one to emulate. if u like pm your email and i will pass u a tactic that im working on atm that does the high press, low block. or i think/feel it does so.
tbh i havent been playing with my striker as a TM much but there could be alot of reasons why your CBs are launching the balls to him instead of using the near pass. it does seem to be the way the role is being perceived as. could also be most of your mids are too high up the field or marked up. even as simple as in bad decisions from your defenders who might be under pressure. lots of reasons and i dont play the game in comprehensive to watch the whole game (which we should if we wanna do a good tactic, but im just too lazy). As for me most of the time i play the CF, F9 or DLF on my striker roles and the preference of ball being serviced to them would be low fast and hard. If u wanna play like what u described then just get your striker into a DLF role just like what jee said. i think you will see less of the ball being launch at range to him that often.
 
If you're ever going to play a two man midfield then one of them HAS to be on defensive duty. Otherwise your just going to get overrun.
 
dilakh2 said:
If you're ever going to play a two man midfield then one of them HAS to be on defensive duty. Otherwise your just going to get overrun.
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I'd go further and suggest that you want either a DLP (D) or CM (D) because BWM (D) doesn't hold his position and will chase the ball
 
Keith Ang said:
Well, u dont need your lone striker to be that deep tbh. this is especially when u counter. being that far back in your half as the lone striker will seriously put your team on the spot when u counter because theres just no one to aim for. hence its either held on too long (and gets pick pocket off) or wild punt up the field. which in both case u lose possession and your team goes back to their defensive shell.
u dont need a defensive mentality to set up the "high press, block low". btw u cant get an exact copy of simeones tactic to work here because apart from what i told u, he does play the trap/lure tactic to funnel the ball to where they want it to go and thats the hard one to emulate. if u like pm your email and i will pass u a tactic that im working on atm that does the high press, low block. or i think/feel it does so.
tbh i havent been playing with my striker as a TM much but there could be alot of reasons why your CBs are launching the balls to him instead of using the near pass. it does seem to be the way the role is being perceived as. could also be most of your mids are too high up the field or marked up. even as simple as in bad decisions from your defenders who might be under pressure. lots of reasons and i dont play the game in comprehensive to watch the whole game (which we should if we wanna do a good tactic, but im just too lazy). As for me most of the time i play the CF, F9 or DLF on my striker roles and the preference of ball being serviced to them would be low fast and hard. If u wanna play like what u described then just get your striker into a DLF role just like what jee said. i think you will see less of the ball being launch at range to him that often.
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thank you very much for the detailed answer. so basically would you recommend to play without any attack duty? I am playing a 4123, when I set the inside forwards on attack duty, they will be far too high up the pitch and do not offer passing options. when I play my lonely striker with an attack duty, the gap between him and midfield will become too large. setting one of the central midfielders on attack, he will immediately run forward leaving the other cm alone and since playing with a holding midfielder, the holding mid will not really support my cm. with attacking wing backs I have made bad experiences as losing the ball means 80% a counter goal for the opposition... so wondering, whether the 4123 is really a formation to have consistent results. I see my oppositions often play the 4231 formation with wingers and they are also very solid defensively. When I tried it out myself, I often get outplayed...
 
Uygar89 said:
thank you very much for the detailed answer. so basically would you recommend to play without any attack duty? I am playing a 4123, when I set the inside forwards on attack duty, they will be far too high up the pitch and do not offer passing options. when I play my lonely striker with an attack duty, the gap between him and midfield will become too large. setting one of the central midfielders on attack, he will immediately run forward leaving the other cm alone and since playing with a holding midfielder, the holding mid will not really support my cm. with attacking wing backs I have made bad experiences as losing the ball means 80% a counter goal for the opposition... so wondering, whether the 4123 is really a formation to have consistent results. I see my oppositions often play the 4231 formation with wingers and they are also very solid defensively. When I tried it out myself, I often get outplayed...
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durn too much to tell ya or share but just too much typing need to be done (aka lazy) lol.
will try to make it short and concise. Keyword Balance. u r getting the idea actually but u have to know that this is a sim and not an actual game. so we have to sometimes see it in a sim and also actual football perspective.
answer to your question is a no and yes. no because i feel there is a way to play the attack duty (i just havent got down to it successfully). and yes because i play a 4123 as my main formation with the 3 advance players without the attack duty. now this is just because the way im set up as a team and also how i want them to play. break your team down into 3 areas- def, mid and atk. work the idea on how u want your def unit work, your mid and atk. then finally work on the idea how u would prefer them as a whole squad to play (by then the readjustment on the various tactics such as roles, positions or TIs would smooth out the way the team plays as a unit). or u can do it the other way round too, either way works fine. by then u will understand what and how your team actually works and where u can plug the leaks in an actual match. to me the 4123 is a very good formation if u know how to get the best out of it and what players works well with it.
example on the atk duty, if i would to try to replicate mourinho's play (chelsea and Real) then i would basically play the ST and AMR as support while the AML as atk. This is because he tends to allow more attacking freedom to hazard/cr7 whilst not expecting them to do much on defends. notice the balance there? Anyhow, im not sure how true is this but in FM the atk duty would have that player bombing forward as soon as your team has the ball. and if he is in the top side of the field (ie striker) usually they dont contribute much to def. where else the support roles tends to try and balance between pushing forward and coming back to def. ofc the def duty players then would tend to stay at their position and do more defensive work.
i hope with that in mind, u can have an idea on how u can set your players role to actually play the way u want them to. FYI my wingbacks are on atk duty.
4231 is another solid formation (which includes the 4123) hence why u are seeing alot of teams adopting these 2 formation. which one is better? depends on the individual. for me, u want an ala kopp play, 4231 is your best bet. high press is always better when u r top heavy.
 
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