Testing the ME: "defending isn't working!"

[CauseAndEffectIsReal]

Edit: added disclaimer


Disclaimer: There are no screenshots in this post, which is unfortunate; really this issue needs a much bigger, better organized setup. However, for those interested, I do have 4 games saved, and I may play one or two more to see what happens. This post is about two changes: I encouraged my players to STAND OFF and DRIBBLE much more; I left everything else alone. I didn't even make in-game changes adjustments except substitutions. And I am hoping others will try this too and tell us what happened.



One of the most frequent complaints I've seen since release is that "defending isn't working!" Much has been said about this, and as usual, there's a mixture of misunderstandings of how FM works (for example, there is the silly claim that the game is "cheating") and more legitimate confusion, such as how to interpret SI's often vague tactical description and what we actually see happening.


What I see:


1. My wingbacks/fullbacks often have quite low ratings.


2. I often see players dribbling past several of my defenders--who are, according to their stats, quite good at their jobs--and creating scoring opportunities for the other team.


I'm not so much worried about the technical reason this is happening--I gather SI's working on that. I am, however, interested in how these issues play out in the match engine & being able to play my game before Christmas without wanting to ragequit every time. So I ran an experiment, and the results were eye-opening.


The situation:
I'm playing with Lincoln City, a Skrill Premier Division Side slated for a mid-table finish. I am 19th, having lost 3 of my first 4. My team's morale is okay to poor.


...and I am up against Wrexham, currently in 1st place.


The first time I began the game, I gave up 2 inside of 10 minutes (on par for my season thus far) and rage quit , which I almost never do. (It's been a long first few games...)


Then, I decided to try something. I had been playing with a setup designed to disrupt the game by winning the ball and countering--a 4-1-3-2 with a lot of aggression and pressing. For this game, though, I made the following changes:




1. Have my team stand off my opponents
2. Have everybody except my CDs and GK "dribble more"; set "run at defense" for my team.


So far, I have replayed this game 6 times. I have gone 4 wins, 2 draw, 0 losses.


I have begun saving these if uploading them would help anybody. It's hard to tell much from the stats, partially because my team is so much worse talent-wise; however, it has made a massive difference in the results, and I am giving up FAR fewer CCC's. I am even getting more possession, though still not over 50% (probably because my keeper has, like 5/28 passes completed [this is also a bug I know they're working on]). This is without me making ANY adjustments other than subs, by the way.


I'm wondering if anybody else would be willing to try this to see what the results are?

 

[junjar]

Fullbacks have lost the ability to tackle in FM 2014, both the standing and slide challenge. An 8yr old child can spot it after watching a couple games where fullbacks get isolated. A competent winger running at a competent fullback is a no contest unless the winger trips over his own laces.

These rules apply equally to the opposition as they do to your team.

 

[CauseAndEffectIsReal]

This may seem nitpicky, but actually, the problem's with dribbling. I think it's a worthwhile distinction, since, as you said, that affects your own tactical choices.

 

[Jaklol]

The amount of complaints every year that there's something wrong with this or that, my fullbacks were getting skinned but instead of complaining I edited my tactics and now there not. I'm Forrest and it's my 2nd season in the prem and I'm 3rd about 14 games in. The game is fine.

 

[Blarry]

As broken as the ME is right now, it also gives you lots of possibilities for abuse and exploitation.
Your fullbacks get overrun by your opponents? So do theirs. Screw your own fullbacks, play with a 3-man back, and grab yourself some decent wingers (look for dribbling, pace, balance - "Runs with ball often" PPM is unbeatable at the moment) and do as the ME does.

 

[junjar]

This may seem nitpicky, but actually, the problem's with dribbling. I think it's a worthwhile distinction, since, as you said, that affects your own tactical choices.

Interesting, I saw it as a problem with how the defender responds to dribbling. Could you expand further on how its the dribbling mechanic itself thats the problem.

 

[TJD07]

My fullbacks work fine as do they with many people I know that play the game, I have more issues with CBs than FBs.

Also king, do you do anything other than post in every thread complaining about something?

 

[apvmoreira]

Im reading a lot about the full backs issue and this is what i've gathered:

- The tackling vs Dribbling can't be more tuned up in favour of tackling, since tackling is almost at max. Putting it on max will destroy any chance of strikers scoring goals and the balance is very hard to do (SI explanation)
- Defenders need to rely more on anticipation and positioning than tackling. So, tackling 20 is way worst than anticipation and positions 15...
- Stand off and avoid diving into tackles will raise your chance of not suffering goals.
- Clean sheets are very difficult to have, so focus on scoring more than one. I prefer 3.

So, if you think in real life, you can see that the best defenders are those you don't get their shorts dirty with grass and mud. Maldini is a perfect example of anticipation and positioning. You just have to find your Maldininis in game
Also, having players diving into tackle against Hazard for example, can work one time. Hazard is not stupid, he will just wait for your diving (Anticipation again), with dribble the defender and off he goes!

Balance is also very important. You can have 2 bulls of strength, brute force, divine tacklers, great pacers and crossers for full backs, but if they don't know how to balance, they will not have the equilibrium necessary to handle the dribbles and will loose position.


In conclusion, we need to adapt and check other stats rather that the ones that are obvious. Its not correct, it's a knowed issue and Si is working on it, but until then we adapt... or die trying

 

[TJD07]

Care to upload some pkm's then so we can see how you amazingly get your fullbacks to tackle and all that while so many people have problems with it?

That wasn't a complaint btw, I think you'll find it was sarcasm which when I was at school was completely different and every thread? sorry mate, I think you need to pay more attention at primary school.

I gathered the sarcasm bit, you still complain about the game and do so in a lot of the random threads that pop up.
All you do is seem to want to ***** about SI and the mods on here.

 

[Mike.]

The ME isn't broken, having to play with 3 at the back because fullbacks are broken is perfectly normal and in no way means the game is broken.

Sounds legit.

Strikers broken? no problem, don't use strikers and the game is no longer broken.

Neither defenders or strikers are broken.

There are issues with FB non tackling interaction, and a few issues with shot accuracy. None of which stop you from playing with either set.

The fact that you think you need to get your fullbacks to tackle suggest you haven't actually grasped what is wrong in the ME in the first place.

The ratings are actually an entire separate issue altogether.

The mods are in fact bang on with what they say to be honest.

 

[craiigman]

When I set my tactic up, I set my tactics to stand off players, what ended up happening is they just walked out of the players way to let them shoot.

 

[Keno777]

There are issues with FB non tackling interaction

Yea, but it seems to be pretty bad. Hopefully there is some kind of patch soon, FM 13 took several weeks until it was playable also.

Honestly, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a long time

You'll never see a mod on here actually admit to a real ME problem, its ALWAYS the tactics LOL.

The mods are in fact bang on with what they say to be honest.

LOL

 

[Mike.]

Well I guess we have different definitions of broken, to me a fullback not tackling and ending with 2.9 rating is broken but to you it's not, fair enough but all that matters is SI agree hence the upcoming fix, so tell me why SI are fixing something that isn't broken?

I don't consider shot accuracy to be a problem that was just me being sarcastic and using the logic people often post with here and the fact I need to get my fullbacks to tackle is hilarious because it's not like fullbacks need to tackle, oh wait, I guess fullbacks are just there to support the other 9 players my bad.

Honestly, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a long time, who doesn't need their fullbacks to tackle, are you actually telling me you prefer them NOT to tackle because it makes more sense to let the wingers cut inside and do as they please? and I'm the one that doesn't grasp the ME? please...

See there in lies the problem, you see everything in black and white, when its not.

Its not broken, but its not at its best either. Its being looked at because it can be improved, or should they not bother improving it then? It's a sliding scale.

Its not ridiculous, you have totally misunderstood what I said, in the same way that you have misunderstood what the actual FB issues are. Hint, its not to with the tackles they make.

 

[Mike.]

Yea, but it seems to be pretty bad. Hopefully there is some kind of patch soon, FM 13 took several weeks until it was playable also.



You'll never see a mod on here actually admit to a real ME problem, its ALWAYS the tactics LOL.



LOL

You are horribly wrong. Since ive been pointing them out since the start, I literally just mentioned two of them before. So if you have nothing useful to say, just dont post, I really do not have time for people who make snide remarks at the mods here. We're not your punching bags, if people keep it up, we will just remove you from the forum.

 

[Keno777]

So fullbacks going from gods to non existent isn't broken? going from dominating the ratings to getting 2's and 3's isn't broken? jesus christ.

PaulC has even made a post saying he's fixing the way players engage yet you still believe fullbacks tackling is fine? I give up. Fullbacks get low ratings and can't tackle/engage yet people like you still believe it's a problem on our end.

Just wait for a patch bro like the rest of us, its pretty pointless to play right now unfortunately. Whether the specific problem is the fullbacks tackling or the way they close down, fact is there is a big problem right now.

 

[Mike.]

So fullbacks going from gods to non existent isn't broken? going from dominating the ratings to getting 2's and 3's isn't broken? jesus christ.

PaulC has even made a post saying he's fixing the way players engage yet you still believe fullbacks tackling is fine? I give up. Fullbacks get low ratings and can't tackle/engage yet people like you still believe it's a problem on our end.

The ratings and the fullback issue are two separate things. Players are over punished, full backs get it the worst because of they fact they misplace direct passes and can not engage well enough

Engagement isnt the same thing as tackling. If you had read his posts you know full backs are making TWICE as many tackles as they should. What needs fixing is what he refers to as engagement: jostling, holding up the player, tactical fouls, showing them down the line. all the non-tacking stuff full backs do. That is the actual full back issue. I never said it was a problem out end, you just didnt bother to read what I said, nor did you even understand what the issues are.

 

[Jensefaen]

Mike. is right though: The tackling is not a problem. They actually try to tacke a lot. The problem with full backs is (is it called jostling in english?) and their ability to push wingers on the outside and to throw in line etc. So in fact its more about an error in their positional play than their tackling. I might be wrong here, but the Admins can correct me if so is the case.

Strikers inability to finish with their feet ,especially poachers is more annoying for me. Players with high finishing and pace, but with bad heading ability, seem to be unable to get goals at the moment. Deep lying forwards and target men seem to do fine though. The striker problem is equally or even a lot more worse in my opinion. The fullback rating thing is a bug, and will be fixed. In the meantime you can judge for yourself when seeing the game.

 

[Keno777]

I've been waiting since the release lol, I actually thought the beta was decent but then they wrecked the fullbacks, touch wood it's fixed and based on what PaulC said he's fixed a fair amount of things.



Aye well that's what I mean, engagement rather than tackling and not just standing still doing nothing my bad.

Yupp I hear ya, I have been waiting as well. The ME had some game-breaking bugs as well when FM 13 came out, and it sucks waiting for the first patch to fix a lot of things, but o well I guess.

 

[Mike.]

I've been waiting since the release lol, I actually thought the beta was decent but then they wrecked the fullbacks, touch wood it's fixed and based on what PaulC said he's fixed a fair amount of things.



Aye well that's what I mean, engagement rather than tackling and not just standing still doing nothing my bad.

Anyone who tells you there are no problems is in denial. Anyone who says its broken is overreacting. That pretty much sums it up. I apologise if I come across harshly, but it gets pretty tiring when people have a go at you for being reasonable.

 

[Keno777]

Anyone who tells you there are no problems is in denial. Anyone who says its broken is overreacting. That pretty much sums it up. I apologise if I come across harshly, but it gets pretty tiring when people have a go at you for being reasonable.

I apologize for my previous post Mike, I did not mean to have a go at anyone. It is just really frustrating dealing with these issues and waiting for a patch to fix it. And of-course I could be 100% wrong, but how can you say it is not broken or game breaking? Game after game you see the same thing/problems over and over again.(Fullbacks not being able to engage/close down correctly and ALWAYS get ripped down the flanks.