Thats why i said we should have brought Fellaini and for the money we are gonna waste on persie **** yes we could have brought him.The game was average from us with Gea playing really well.Rooney and Nani were absolutely poor.Vidic showed he was out for 10 months and that means we loose.Evra is past is prime and useless and i will keep saying it for the rest of the season i am **** sure about it .
The Manchester United Thread
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Just been reading the match facts, and noticed something startling.
Possession: Everton 31% Man Utd 69%
Goal Attempts: Everton 18 Man Utd 14
Shots on Target: Everton 7 Man Utd 4
And we still won? Cannot get over that possession stat
Possession: Everton 31% Man Utd 69%
Goal Attempts: Everton 18 Man Utd 14
Shots on Target: Everton 7 Man Utd 4
And we still won? Cannot get over that possession stat
That sort of knee-jerk reaction won't take us anywhere! I enjoyed the game knowing that we had a makeshift defense and an Idiot winger! Positives for me were that De Gea continues to impress me, he is going to be a Legend. Kagawa will add that Hunger in Rooney's game that has been lacking for 2 seasons now. Cleverley proved that he can play in midfield and control the game very well!
Rooney's persistence in dropping deep while you had players like Kagawa & RVP to do that for you didn't help.
Against (and not to take anything away from Everton) weaker teams that sit deep, Rooney just doesn't have the flair to be effective in that role. Especially considering he constantly left Kagawa, someone who plays really well in the CF role, up top on his own playing pretty much as a poacher.
More of the same when RVP came on. And as much as RVP can play in the poacher role. Rooney's a better poacher & RVP's a better CF.
I also thought that Valencia was too defensive. Along with Nani playing averagely, limited your threat significantly.
EDIT: Aimed @United fans incase you are wondering why I am referring to ManUtd as 'you/them/they'.
We don't have RVP. We have the beast that is Fellaini
Hence why I put the edit @the end to avoid confusion. Couldn't be bothered to change everything. =[
Those stats look very similar to an Arsenal match rather than a United match.
And also not very good reading if you're an Everton fan. Still have to work on retaining possession against the bigger clubs or we'll get slaughtered in the future lol
True. Although still its early days and that was a great start to the season for Everton. Could be the season where things work out for Everton. Don't want to speak to soon... but perhaps there could be a shift in power on merseyside.
Yeah I'm desperately trying to get the power shift thing out of my head-I have a habit of getting carried away, saying something positive then it starts to go down the crapper lol. But some are getting a bit carried away by saying we're going to finish 4th which I think is a bit too much. Though when we play Liverpool in October and get a substantial victory, that could be a sign of things to come. But the most important thing is we need to keep players fit simple as. I'll be happy with a top 6 finish. Looking at our squad it's pretty much obvious we shouldn't be a mid-table side anymore. Playing against the other top sides will be the biggest indicator of wether or not we've moved forward.
Am I the only one a little bit suspect about this whole Alexander Buttner guy?
No word at all from any journos/club officials about him. Yet he's supposedly already had a medical? All the photos of him with United gear are taken himself apart from the new one that has appeared today where he's holding a United shirt outside the megastore? :S
Looks like a mega-troll to me. Says he hasn't met Ferguson yet, but he's already apparently done his medical for the club (which usually means deal near completion).. Doesn't seem right at all.
No word at all from any journos/club officials about him. Yet he's supposedly already had a medical? All the photos of him with United gear are taken himself apart from the new one that has appeared today where he's holding a United shirt outside the megastore? :S
Looks like a mega-troll to me. Says he hasn't met Ferguson yet, but he's already apparently done his medical for the club (which usually means deal near completion).. Doesn't seem right at all.
Haha: "when".
Signing Jelavic was brilliant, he's a top striker. He could be the difference this season.
Well a win against the team who finished 2nd last season should be a good indicator that you can beat the top sides this season. Picking up points consistently against the smaller teams seems to be the downfall of a lot of teams challenging for fourth.
Agree it's a great win-but at the same time, their CB position was ripped to shreds, and using Carrick to mark The Beast was a bad idea. At the same time, maybe Vidic should have told Carrick to let him mark Fellaini instead. Saying that, he was very rusty so maybe it might not have made a difference I guess, hard to say. And you're right about points being dropped against smaller teams. We struggled last time against Norwich, lost to QPR, struggled against Wolves. And Southampton so nearly got the scalp of City. I suspect another topsy turvy season lol
Ferguson showcases a 4-2-1-3 against Everton | Zonal Marking
[h=1]Ferguson showcases a 4-2-1-3 against Everton[/h]August 21, 2012
Manchester United's starting line-up against Everton
The main story on the night was Everton’s excellent performance, but the more significant development in the long-term was Manchester United’s choice of formation and personnel. The arrivals of both Shinji Kagawa and Robin van Persie have seen many questions about precisely how they’ll fit into the side, and while this starting XI doesn’t solve the issue of where van Persie plays, it hints at a change in strategy.
I’ve written more about this at ESPN (before this match), but Ferguson has been playing a 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 system in the past three seasons or so. Regardless of what you want to call it, it’s generally featured two forwards – Wayne Rooney and one of Dimitar Berbatov, Danny Welbeck or Javier Hernandez. The wide players were deployed as wide midfielders rather than wide forwards.
The alternative, a 4-3-3, was generally fielded in a more defensive, cautious setting, with the wide midfielders pushing forward and an extra central midfielder used. Crucially, that extra player was never a true number ten like Kagawa.
This formation hints at something different. It will probably be closer to the flexible side Ferguson used before the departures of Carlos Tevez and Cristiano Ronaldo, that often featured three points of attack and plenty of movement. A return to that fluid style was attempted at the start of last season, but the catalyst for that was Tom Cleverley, and when he missed the majority of 2011/12 through injury, Ferguson didn’t have the appropriate tools to play that way.
Against Everton, the formation was a 4-2-1-3, with two central midfielders that generally stayed in deep positions alongside each other, a clearly-defined number ten in Shinji Kagawa, and three forwards stretched across the pitch. The use of Welbeck on the flank might indicate that Ferguson sees that position as belonging to a true forward (although he did play wide in a 4-4-1-1 on occasion last season).
Certainly, when United approached the final third it was not uncommon to see Kagawa, a creative attacking midfielder, behind the three forwards. That’s similar to the Inter side of 2009/10, which would explain why Ferguson appeared to be looking so closely at the key player in that system, Wesley Sneijder, despite his poor form over the past two years.
The system was most interesting when van Persie replaced Welbeck, because it demonstrated the flexibility of the front three. First it seemed Rooney was going to the left, then van Persie moved to that side, then Nani went over there. Van Persie was later seen defending the right flank, then it was Rooney’s turn to move to that side. In short, with the exception of Nani (and his replacement, Ashley Young) not popping up in the centre, the three attacking players played all three positions after van Persie’s introduction. The block of three were interchangeable, but Kagawa’s position was permanent.
For now, the shape and system will need more work before it becomes fully functional, but the signs here were more promising than the scoreline suggests. United’s use of the ball in midfield was generally very good – they passed quickly, they got Kagawa involved in the play a great deal, despite the fact he was marshalled by two Everton central midfielders, and Welbeck made good runs from wide positions in behind the defence on at least two occasions to find himself apparently in one-on-one situations, though he was denied by good challenges on both occasions.
The system broke down in the penalty box largely because of a particularly poor display from Rooney, who didn’t look 100% fit and didn’t offer anything like the movement required for a lone striker. Kagawa’s performance was encouraging, but often he looked up and Rooney wasn’t in a position to receive a clever pass. Sometimes he came towards play to get the ball, but there was rarely a reverse run into a striking position, and United ended up playing in front of Everton.
For example, compare Kagawa’s passes to those of Santi Cazorla – another number ten who made his debut in a 4-2-1-3 this weekend – and there are much fewer forward passes into dangerous positions. That’s not necessarily a reflection of poor play from Kagawa – equally, it demonstrates Rooney’s lack of movement to get on the end of potential passes.
United’s problem here was a lack of physicality – not just at the back, but also in midfield. Having a creative number ten in conjunction with three forwards asks a great deal of the two central midfielders; Cleverley got stuck in but is a more creative player than he is a scrapper, while Scholes’ tackling has always been his weak spot, and he handicapped himself with a particularly silly early booking. The return of Carrick to midfield would be a slight improvement but not a solution.
United will have to focus upon ball retention to hide their lack of ball-winning ability, though few sides this season will exploit United’s physical weakness as expertly as Everton did here.
[h=1]Ferguson showcases a 4-2-1-3 against Everton[/h]August 21, 2012
I’ve written more about this at ESPN (before this match), but Ferguson has been playing a 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 system in the past three seasons or so. Regardless of what you want to call it, it’s generally featured two forwards – Wayne Rooney and one of Dimitar Berbatov, Danny Welbeck or Javier Hernandez. The wide players were deployed as wide midfielders rather than wide forwards.
The alternative, a 4-3-3, was generally fielded in a more defensive, cautious setting, with the wide midfielders pushing forward and an extra central midfielder used. Crucially, that extra player was never a true number ten like Kagawa.
This formation hints at something different. It will probably be closer to the flexible side Ferguson used before the departures of Carlos Tevez and Cristiano Ronaldo, that often featured three points of attack and plenty of movement. A return to that fluid style was attempted at the start of last season, but the catalyst for that was Tom Cleverley, and when he missed the majority of 2011/12 through injury, Ferguson didn’t have the appropriate tools to play that way.
Against Everton, the formation was a 4-2-1-3, with two central midfielders that generally stayed in deep positions alongside each other, a clearly-defined number ten in Shinji Kagawa, and three forwards stretched across the pitch. The use of Welbeck on the flank might indicate that Ferguson sees that position as belonging to a true forward (although he did play wide in a 4-4-1-1 on occasion last season).
Certainly, when United approached the final third it was not uncommon to see Kagawa, a creative attacking midfielder, behind the three forwards. That’s similar to the Inter side of 2009/10, which would explain why Ferguson appeared to be looking so closely at the key player in that system, Wesley Sneijder, despite his poor form over the past two years.
The system was most interesting when van Persie replaced Welbeck, because it demonstrated the flexibility of the front three. First it seemed Rooney was going to the left, then van Persie moved to that side, then Nani went over there. Van Persie was later seen defending the right flank, then it was Rooney’s turn to move to that side. In short, with the exception of Nani (and his replacement, Ashley Young) not popping up in the centre, the three attacking players played all three positions after van Persie’s introduction. The block of three were interchangeable, but Kagawa’s position was permanent.
For now, the shape and system will need more work before it becomes fully functional, but the signs here were more promising than the scoreline suggests. United’s use of the ball in midfield was generally very good – they passed quickly, they got Kagawa involved in the play a great deal, despite the fact he was marshalled by two Everton central midfielders, and Welbeck made good runs from wide positions in behind the defence on at least two occasions to find himself apparently in one-on-one situations, though he was denied by good challenges on both occasions.
The system broke down in the penalty box largely because of a particularly poor display from Rooney, who didn’t look 100% fit and didn’t offer anything like the movement required for a lone striker. Kagawa’s performance was encouraging, but often he looked up and Rooney wasn’t in a position to receive a clever pass. Sometimes he came towards play to get the ball, but there was rarely a reverse run into a striking position, and United ended up playing in front of Everton.
For example, compare Kagawa’s passes to those of Santi Cazorla – another number ten who made his debut in a 4-2-1-3 this weekend – and there are much fewer forward passes into dangerous positions. That’s not necessarily a reflection of poor play from Kagawa – equally, it demonstrates Rooney’s lack of movement to get on the end of potential passes.
United’s problem here was a lack of physicality – not just at the back, but also in midfield. Having a creative number ten in conjunction with three forwards asks a great deal of the two central midfielders; Cleverley got stuck in but is a more creative player than he is a scrapper, while Scholes’ tackling has always been his weak spot, and he handicapped himself with a particularly silly early booking. The return of Carrick to midfield would be a slight improvement but not a solution.
United will have to focus upon ball retention to hide their lack of ball-winning ability, though few sides this season will exploit United’s physical weakness as expertly as Everton did here.
Yeah we kept the ball well, it was because of Rooney we couldn't do much in the final third. Kagawa was so quick to make decisions, Rooney was no where sharp enough to react or play the ball back.
We were outdone bu Fellaini's brilliance as target man, not as CM. They bypassed our midfield with long ball to Fellaini who did awesomely to keep it and create chances.
Good to see us trying new tactics than the same old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. Nani had a bad day which made it even worse. I'm excited to watch our new fluid system against Fulham but only problem is we will have to play Carrick as CB again.
We were outdone bu Fellaini's brilliance as target man, not as CM. They bypassed our midfield with long ball to Fellaini who did awesomely to keep it and create chances.
Good to see us trying new tactics than the same old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. Nani had a bad day which made it even worse. I'm excited to watch our new fluid system against Fulham but only problem is we will have to play Carrick as CB again.
