Torres injuries cost us - Benitez
- Thread starter BBC Sport
- Start date
- Replies 25
- Views 702
Trophy_Whorder
Trophy_Hoarder
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2008
- Messages
- 3,283
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 36
what a ****** **** **** u rafa
He knows he didn't have to sell Keane right? Buying a striker in the summer made more sense than a midfielder was more sensible, even if it wasn't his choice. It's his own fault. Berbatov has missed a month for us this season, Rooney has missed at least 5 weeks, Ronaldo the first month of the season but we deal with it. Drogba has also missed massive chunks for Chelsea.
You'd be closer to us in the title race if you had the squad to deal with it and you didn't play your best CB at RB, etc etc etc
You'd be closer to us in the title race if you had the squad to deal with it and you didn't play your best CB at RB, etc etc etc
Maybe he never wanted to buy Keane in the summer, but that doesn't excuse selling him halfway through a season when your star striker has been out for several weeks with a hamstring injury. He seems to be focusing more on getting one over on the owners than on winning the league, and if this continues then he's got to go. Simple as.
Hmm, last summer Rafa identified 2 key targets. Barry and Keane. Keane was going to play with Gerrard behind Torres, Barry was going to play on the left - meaning Liverpool would have played a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. Benitez wanted to spend 18 million on Barry and 12 on Keane. Parry went out and paid 20 million on Keane.
Keane was shocking for us. Truly shocking. He missed sitters, his attitude stank and he only had a couple of games where the old Robbie Keane came alive, and those were the games when N'Gog played up top and he had room to float in front of the midfield. The circus around him was a huge distraction. And so when Spurs came back and said they'd take him back and we'd only lose a couple of million then it was a no-brainer to take it. If we'd waited til the summer, we'd have lost a lot more money (at best we have our Champion's League earnings to spend each summer - 20 - 30 million quid). Keane had already shown he wasn't capable of scoring regularly enough to do Torres job and so he'd have been a 20 million bench warmer for Gerrard, not to mention his cost in wages for the rest of the season. We can't afford that. We're so far behind financially in comparison to the other 'big 3' and even Villa, now their American is pumping money in.
We did make an approach for Heskey. But it turned out there wasn't enough money in the pot (20 million quid was never actually paid for Keane, like in the majority of transfers most of it is paid over time so we only got back part of the downpayment we'd made) to get him. And so he went to Villa. Nemeth (the 'natural' goal scorer in our reserves) was sent out on loan to get first team fitness so that he'd be given a run but he got injured and has been out since.
Our problem has been a lack of squad depth. Pure and simple. All the top managers rotate at around an average of 3.11 players per game over the course of the league season. We have to push the Champion's League as hard as possible as that's our spending money for the summer. So by December, the lack of depth has meant that tired legs has nullified the only thing which has made up for our lack of quality in front of goal this season in the absence of Torres - our high pressure pressing game which sees us score more in the last 15 minutes than any other side in the league.
Regular game-goers aren't surprised, given Torres' injuries, that the slump of form came in late December. Our conversion of chances has been apalling without him. We've created the same number of chances as last season, but without him, no-one has been putting them away.
re. Skrtel at RB, Carra can't play there and play again the following game. Arbeloa was out. Degen is a sick note. So that meant playing Darby at right back in a critical game or moving Skrtel there (Agger injured, Hyppia too slow). Given that we needed Kuyt to lead the line (especially considering Gerrard was obviously lacking in match fitness and energy), and El Zhar was playing right wing as a result, playing Darby from the start would have been an even bigger gamble. So it wasn't quite as crazy as it looks, and was worth a try considering that we lost primarily because of a freaky own goal and not because Skrtel was playing at right back.
Anyways, that's enough from me but thought I'd throw in the facts
Keane was shocking for us. Truly shocking. He missed sitters, his attitude stank and he only had a couple of games where the old Robbie Keane came alive, and those were the games when N'Gog played up top and he had room to float in front of the midfield. The circus around him was a huge distraction. And so when Spurs came back and said they'd take him back and we'd only lose a couple of million then it was a no-brainer to take it. If we'd waited til the summer, we'd have lost a lot more money (at best we have our Champion's League earnings to spend each summer - 20 - 30 million quid). Keane had already shown he wasn't capable of scoring regularly enough to do Torres job and so he'd have been a 20 million bench warmer for Gerrard, not to mention his cost in wages for the rest of the season. We can't afford that. We're so far behind financially in comparison to the other 'big 3' and even Villa, now their American is pumping money in.
We did make an approach for Heskey. But it turned out there wasn't enough money in the pot (20 million quid was never actually paid for Keane, like in the majority of transfers most of it is paid over time so we only got back part of the downpayment we'd made) to get him. And so he went to Villa. Nemeth (the 'natural' goal scorer in our reserves) was sent out on loan to get first team fitness so that he'd be given a run but he got injured and has been out since.
Our problem has been a lack of squad depth. Pure and simple. All the top managers rotate at around an average of 3.11 players per game over the course of the league season. We have to push the Champion's League as hard as possible as that's our spending money for the summer. So by December, the lack of depth has meant that tired legs has nullified the only thing which has made up for our lack of quality in front of goal this season in the absence of Torres - our high pressure pressing game which sees us score more in the last 15 minutes than any other side in the league.
Regular game-goers aren't surprised, given Torres' injuries, that the slump of form came in late December. Our conversion of chances has been apalling without him. We've created the same number of chances as last season, but without him, no-one has been putting them away.
re. Skrtel at RB, Carra can't play there and play again the following game. Arbeloa was out. Degen is a sick note. So that meant playing Darby at right back in a critical game or moving Skrtel there (Agger injured, Hyppia too slow). Given that we needed Kuyt to lead the line (especially considering Gerrard was obviously lacking in match fitness and energy), and El Zhar was playing right wing as a result, playing Darby from the start would have been an even bigger gamble. So it wasn't quite as crazy as it looks, and was worth a try considering that we lost primarily because of a freaky own goal and not because Skrtel was playing at right back.
Anyways, that's enough from me but thought I'd throw in the facts
I think surely playing Carra there for another game (simply because he's done it a few times before) while keeping Skrtel and Hyypia (I presume it was) together was less of a risk, especially when Downing was the key man and could be marked better by Carragher.
It's true that Keane didn't perform like he could, but regardless of the financial situation it was a bad move imo to sell him. Especially at a time when Torres and Gerrard were battling for fitness, Benitez could have said 'look, it's your time to shine'. Berbatov didn't score for us for ages and he of course got a longer run than Keane.
I don't think Heskey would have been a solution in terms of goals-and 4m he went for wasn't it? Did you really not have that, especially if Keane was going to go?
It's true that Keane didn't perform like he could, but regardless of the financial situation it was a bad move imo to sell him. Especially at a time when Torres and Gerrard were battling for fitness, Benitez could have said 'look, it's your time to shine'. Berbatov didn't score for us for ages and he of course got a longer run than Keane.
I don't think Heskey would have been a solution in terms of goals-and 4m he went for wasn't it? Did you really not have that, especially if Keane was going to go?
If we'd played Carra there, then he'd certainly have missed tonight - which would have meant risking Hyppia getting exposed by Cisse. It's swings and roundabouts I guess. Mash played there tonight - if it had not worked out it's a crazy decision too I guess.
To be honest ajw, I think Rafa would have stuck by him if his attitude had been better and he'd not seemed to fuel the media circus. But attitude is the first thing Rafa looks for in a player, and having a player mouth what Keane was when substituted was probably too much. You're right about the Manchester United players being injured/out of form - but you've never had all four main goal threats out at the same time. Which is where that financial clout comes in - we couldn't afford 4 players of that quality's wages, even if we could scrub together the money to buy them in the first place.
Keane's downpayment was about 2 million. With that refunded, we had about 3 million to spend. And as you say Heskey went for a bit more than that. He wasn't the solution to scoring goals as such, but he does offer a physicality which would allow the midfield players playing off him that bit of extra space and time to finish. Which is why he was ideal for both us and Villa.
Liverpool are in a real mess financially. Our two yanks are skint. At the moment, not all the 350 million is leveraged against the club. With Parry now out, they can do that. Which could mean that we are totally broke even if they manage to refinance their loans at the end of the season. We desperately need someone else to come in with money. If we lose Rafa, I reckon we wouldn't be doing anywhere like as well in the CL, and without that money, we're looking at many, many years of mediocrity even if we do manage to stay afloat. It's all quite worrying really, great news for the Mancs though
To be honest ajw, I think Rafa would have stuck by him if his attitude had been better and he'd not seemed to fuel the media circus. But attitude is the first thing Rafa looks for in a player, and having a player mouth what Keane was when substituted was probably too much. You're right about the Manchester United players being injured/out of form - but you've never had all four main goal threats out at the same time. Which is where that financial clout comes in - we couldn't afford 4 players of that quality's wages, even if we could scrub together the money to buy them in the first place.
Keane's downpayment was about 2 million. With that refunded, we had about 3 million to spend. And as you say Heskey went for a bit more than that. He wasn't the solution to scoring goals as such, but he does offer a physicality which would allow the midfield players playing off him that bit of extra space and time to finish. Which is why he was ideal for both us and Villa.
Liverpool are in a real mess financially. Our two yanks are skint. At the moment, not all the 350 million is leveraged against the club. With Parry now out, they can do that. Which could mean that we are totally broke even if they manage to refinance their loans at the end of the season. We desperately need someone else to come in with money. If we lose Rafa, I reckon we wouldn't be doing anywhere like as well in the CL, and without that money, we're looking at many, many years of mediocrity even if we do manage to stay afloat. It's all quite worrying really, great news for the Mancs though
Point/Counterpoint
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 602
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
If attitude was the first thing Rafa looked for I doubt Gerrard and Mascherano would be at your club.
i kno robbie meane was missing sitters. but you got to give the guy a break tbh. he just moved clubs confidence was low and he wasnt rafa's ideal signing in the summer? that means robbie keane had all the pressure in the world on his back to do well for te club just got to give him time.
meh liverpool are lucky where they are in the league tbh...because if liverpool were to signed barry that means rafa had to sell alonso to juventus....but ill have alonso over barry any day..liverpool were top of the league mostly because of alonso.
buying barry and playing left mid? give me a break dude. barry can play there but he isnt as effective as central mid..
meh liverpool are lucky where they are in the league tbh...because if liverpool were to signed barry that means rafa had to sell alonso to juventus....but ill have alonso over barry any day..liverpool were top of the league mostly because of alonso.
buying barry and playing left mid? give me a break dude. barry can play there but he isnt as effective as central mid..
Not sure what you mean Point/Counterpoint - Mash and Gerrard are both team players. Both leaders on the pitch. Mash has a big mouth but that's because he forgets he doesn't wear the armband for us, and Gerrard has a great attitude on the pitch. The attitude Benitez looks for is about team players and leaders on the pitch. Pellegrino once gave a good interview on how it's attitude which is the deciding factor about players brought in. Rafa isn't a 'give a hug' type manager, he's a 'well done, here's a list of things which I think you can improve on' type manager. For players like Torres and Carragher who are motivated solely by playing for the shirt he's a dream, for players like Keane he's obviously a nightmare.
Gatid - the whole philosophy which Benitez is working on at Liverpool is based around that of Michels/Sacchi and total football. Barry's versatility makes him more useful than Alonso in such a formation as he can move to cover inside as well as playing on the wing. Alonso doesn't go out wide - even for Spain he stays central, and Alonso really isn't the most mobile of players most of the time. Talking of Spain, that's kind of how Benitez wants his teams to play but with more lateral movement on both sides from the central midfielders. The front 5 are meant to interchange freely. Alonso has had a great season but last season he was very, very poor. Love him to bits but if he'd gone in the summer (and it was to Arsenal he was going, not Juve for 10 million) I'd have understood why.
As for Keane, meh. Poor form, poor attitude and a circus whenever he either played or didn't. His purchase was pointless without Barry as we can't play two behind the front man without a Barry type player. So where was left for Keane to play? Putting Gerrard on the right is not only a waste but knackers him out sooner over the course of the season.
Gatid - the whole philosophy which Benitez is working on at Liverpool is based around that of Michels/Sacchi and total football. Barry's versatility makes him more useful than Alonso in such a formation as he can move to cover inside as well as playing on the wing. Alonso doesn't go out wide - even for Spain he stays central, and Alonso really isn't the most mobile of players most of the time. Talking of Spain, that's kind of how Benitez wants his teams to play but with more lateral movement on both sides from the central midfielders. The front 5 are meant to interchange freely. Alonso has had a great season but last season he was very, very poor. Love him to bits but if he'd gone in the summer (and it was to Arsenal he was going, not Juve for 10 million) I'd have understood why.
As for Keane, meh. Poor form, poor attitude and a circus whenever he either played or didn't. His purchase was pointless without Barry as we can't play two behind the front man without a Barry type player. So where was left for Keane to play? Putting Gerrard on the right is not only a waste but knackers him out sooner over the course of the season.
got a point there.
yh i would love to see alonso or senna play for arsenal, our mdifeld would be class and play 4-5-1
senna/alonso - holding player
fabregas, narsi, arshavin, walcott, roscky and diaby and van persie up front
just gotta wait for wenger to buy a DM probs wont tho knowing him.
yh i would love to see alonso or senna play for arsenal, our mdifeld would be class and play 4-5-1
senna/alonso - holding player
fabregas, narsi, arshavin, walcott, roscky and diaby and van persie up front
just gotta wait for wenger to buy a DM probs wont tho knowing him.
Kind of glad it wasn't to be after how Alonso has performed most of this season The crazy thing is that Wenger does have 60 million quid to spend on players. But then a true DMC isn't what his philosophy is about - he'd play Pirlo above Gattuso in that position every day of the week. Wonder how long it will be before the knives are out for him now though - failing to qualify for the CL would turn Arsenal's profit to a loss and given the extra pressure caused by having to refinance the loans and bonds for the stadium, that might make the board push him out... which may explain his reluctance to spend if he thinks someone is coming up through the youth ranks within two or three seasons. Is there anyone like that Gatid? A Pirlo or Alonso type player?
The crazy thing is that Wenger does have 60 million quid to spend on players. But then a true DMC isn't what his philosophy is about - he'd play Pirlo above Gattuso in that position every day of the week. Wonder how long it will be before the knives are out for him now though - failing to qualify for the CL would turn Arsenal's profit to a loss and given the extra pressure caused by having to refinance the loans and bonds for the stadium, that might make the board push him out... which may explain his reluctance to spend if he thinks someone is coming up through the youth ranks within two or three seasons. Is there anyone like that Gatid? A Pirlo or Alonso type player?Is there anyone like that Gatid?QUOTE]
whats that suppose to mean :| sorry if being stupid feel abit tired.
meh yh i would agree with a DM isnt his type of game. But his type of play isnt really working atm and is costing us the CL
only hope is to win the champions league!
Was just asking if there was a youth player coming up at Arsenal who played like Pirlo or Alonso Genuinely no idea, but if Wenger isn't buying one then it might be because he already has one coming through. He has the money if he wanted to go out and get one. Just doesn't make sense. But then my manager is Benitez 
Genuinely no idea, but if Wenger isn't buying one then it might be because he already has one coming through. He has the money if he wanted to go out and get one. Just doesn't make sense. But then my manager is Benitez I think Wenger has really high hopes for Denilson in that kind of role, although he can tackle too. He really needs to buy though and although I dislike the man for him to be sacked would be a travesty.
Zeb you make good points, but Benitez wanting to build a side who plays total football? Don't be soft, the man would take a 1-0 over a 4-3 any day and although players like Mascherano are good they're hardly versatile and interchangable
Zeb you make good points, but Benitez wanting to build a side who plays total football? Don't be soft, the man would take a 1-0 over a 4-3 any day and although players like Mascherano are good they're hardly versatile and interchangable
Benitez is pragmatic for sure -as is Ferguson (1-0 is the hallmark of champions when he does it 
). The Michels/Sacchi approach to football is one he definitely follows though. It's interesting that the TT&F also recognises what Benitez is trying to do. The first step on that road, as established by Sacchi, is a tight defence utilising exceptionally high pressing. Finding attacking players who suit this style of play is very hard though - Sacchi's Milan had the pick of world talent. Mash played at right back last night to some effect, he's versatile, but the demands of modern football mean having at least one player sitting further back in midfield which mash excels at. He's not one of the front 5 though, who are the ones who are meant to be very flexible. Perhaps the closest thing to what Benitez is trying to accomplish is being demonstrated by Del Bosque's Spain right now. It's not 'pure' total football, nor is it anywhere near as demanding as 'pure' Sacchi (Maldini said that after two years with Sacchi even he was knackered) but a hybrid based on the abilities of the players available. Quelroz got Manchester United playing a more limited form of it a few years back which is why you can now look forward to Europe a bit more - the 3 'attacking midfielders' interchanging behind a front man. Since then you've moved on a bit more again and are now playing with even more fluidity with the front 5 although the limitations of Scholes and Giggs in mobility mean they stay central.
Interesting about Denilson. Thanks ajw.
). The Michels/Sacchi approach to football is one he definitely follows though. It's interesting that the TT&F also recognises what Benitez is trying to do. The first step on that road, as established by Sacchi, is a tight defence utilising exceptionally high pressing. Finding attacking players who suit this style of play is very hard though - Sacchi's Milan had the pick of world talent. Mash played at right back last night to some effect, he's versatile, but the demands of modern football mean having at least one player sitting further back in midfield which mash excels at. He's not one of the front 5 though, who are the ones who are meant to be very flexible. Perhaps the closest thing to what Benitez is trying to accomplish is being demonstrated by Del Bosque's Spain right now. It's not 'pure' total football, nor is it anywhere near as demanding as 'pure' Sacchi (Maldini said that after two years with Sacchi even he was knackered) but a hybrid based on the abilities of the players available. Quelroz got Manchester United playing a more limited form of it a few years back which is why you can now look forward to Europe a bit more - the 3 'attacking midfielders' interchanging behind a front man. Since then you've moved on a bit more again and are now playing with even more fluidity with the front 5 although the limitations of Scholes and Giggs in mobility mean they stay central.Interesting about Denilson. Thanks ajw.
Point/Counterpoint
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 602
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Gerrard is a great leader on the field, shame that recently the same can't be said off it. Great attitude for youngsters to follow I say! Let's all take part in assault! Mascherano isn't a leader, he is a moaner and spits his dummy out of the pram. If Mascherano's attitude is one to be followed then no wonder we're seeing high rise in rolling about like you're shot and general douchebaggery like waving imaginery cards at refs e.t.c. I think someone needs to look more closely at these two players. I'm not saying they're not class players mind.
Guilty until proven innocent then.
If Mascherano wasn't a natural leader I really doubt he'd be captaining one of the greatest Nations in World Football. I agree he does dive a lot and he is one of the few players who still asks for cards from the refs but I'm sure in time it will be gone from his Premiership game.