Wenger hits back at his critics

[MisterStubbs]

I should have specified. When I said Arsenal was more successful than 19 other clubs, I was obviously moving towards a more objective definition of success, which you seem to use. They finished in 2nd place. They wanted to win trophies at the beginning of the season, but which ones would they win? The Champions League? They're probably not quite good enough and they drew Barca in the first round. After everyone saw that draw, not advancing past that round was no longer viewed as a failure. The league? They're just about as good as ManU, and they didn't quite do it, they finished in 2nd. Which certainly isn't a failure unless you're definitely the best team in the league, which they aren't. Had they won the league this season it would have been a big surprise and a huge success. 2nd place in arguably the world's best league is by no means a failure for any team. Even if ManU finished in 2nd, I think the real, more mature fans, wouldn't view it as a failure. Would it be viewed as a success? No, because they're the biggest club in the world. But I wouldn't call it a 'failure.' For Arsenal, a much smaller club, 2nd place is pretty good.

Other than the league there are those two domestic cups that no one really cares about. They choked at the last hurdle of the CC but it's not like Arsenal fans would reminisce about that victory in the future if it actually happened. By far, the real impact of that game was ending Arsenal's season (that happening right before having to play Barca at Camp Nou and ManU at OT is very unfortunate, obviously they lost the first and came close in the second, but having those three matches all together destroyed their confidence and cost them the title challenge). And in the FA Cup they were very unlucky to draw ManU at OT so early on. Who knows what would have happened had they drawn them at home or gotten a different team. And of course had they had Vermaelen this season, they would have won the CC and possibly the league (imagine if Vidic missed this whole season).

But the point is I don't think you can measure the overall, long-term success of a club based on whether or not they were able to nag some domestic cup against a crappy team in the final. Most Arsenal fans don't, and it's usually Chelsea/ManU fans such as yourself that simply bring up the whole trophy thing over and over again because it's easy to get on them for it. Had Arsenal gotten the CC this year but hadn't won anything else, would it really change their overall outlook? Their success as a club? It's really not much of an indicator of success or anything really in the grand scheme of things (I mean look at Birmingham, they might get relegated). It's just a talking point you like to use.

When you put things into perspective, Arsenal did just fine this season. Was it a huge success? No. But their consistency is absolutely remarkable considering their small budget, and the fact that they never fell out of the top 4 during their 'selling club' period is a HUGE success.



Obviously a club will sell many of its good players, every club does this, the difference is Arsenal had to clear out ALL of their great players. They had to get rid of all of the Invincibles almost immediately. You conveniently ignore the fact that ManU still has VDS, Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand, etc. Arsenal has NOT ONE player like this. They don't have a single veteran in that team, other than maybe Rosicky, who is just a shadow of his former self after the injuries (and not a leader like one of the ManU players I listed). In other words, you basically sidestepped the whole point of my post.



Moments like this show your bias. No way in **** is Fab leaving this summer, unless Barca makes a terrible move. Xavi is only 31, and the type of player he is he should last a couple more years at his peak. He could end up like a Scholes or a Giggs. The fact is if Barca is halfway intelligent (especially considering their financial situation), they won't buy Fabregas until they need a Xavi replacement. Why spend 50 million+ on someone to sit on the bench? Fab is a great player, but he's not quite as good as Iniesta or Xavi, who fit in perfectly to that Barca system.

Clichy is always out of position and I don't think it'll be a big blow if he leaves. Arsene will find a cheap, good, young replacement. Adebayor? Seriously? He left Arsenal for CITY. He's a filthy money-grubber, that's why he went in the first place, everyone knows that. No way Arsenal would want him in the team, and they got rid of him for a good price because that's the type of thing Arsenal has to do to pay off their stadium.



Tottenham were the form team for a long time and I thought that'd continue, although they've slipped in recent weeks. Maybe City will take it but I don't think they'll finish in the top 4. Your Chelsea point is a poor one, that's the same as me saying "if Arsenal hadn't had a poor patch the last two weeks, they'd be 4 points from ManU with a game in hand and in the title race). Arsenal were the better team this season. Fact. They were the second best team in England this season. Fact. There's no reason for you to insist they aren't in the top 3 or that they're falling out of the top 5 other than pure bias.



Macheda and Welbeck are first team for ManU? Welbeck is a good young player but he's behind 3 very good strikers and he won't have much impact on ManU next season. Nani isn't young, and I don't think Evans is going to be anything really special. I don't see what your point is...of course ManU has good young players. But unlike Arsenal, they have some very important veterans, which is what got them the title. These players are near the end of their careers, so Arsenal is in just as good of a position as ManU.







Arsenal is a big club, but they finished in 2nd place, which is a moderate success for them, but not a failure like you claim. They definitely aren't as big as ManU, which is why I wouldn't use ManU's standards of success to judge Arsenal like you insist on doing. Blackpool has their standards of success, ManU has theirs, and Arsenal, being a selling club, has theirs. For Arsenal, remaining in the top 4 and competing in all competitions until the end of the season is a success, and they've done that. So you can't claim that Arsenal is an unsuccessful club.

Arsenal will have their day once they're done paying for their stadium and they can switch to a normal transfer policy. You got very lucky in Moscow and just like Arsenal you couldn't beat ManU either even though you are much better suited to counter their style of play. Also, your continued insistence that Arsenal isn't top 3 just really shows your bias. Who do you seriously think is above Arsenal right now other than ManU and Chelsea (who, IMO, have fallen behind Arsenal, but I'm not trying to argue that right now)? Man City? What a load of rubbish. They haven't even made the Champions League while Arsenal has for 15 straight seasons and you think they're bigger/better than Arsenal? Tottenham? When was the last time Tottenham finished above Arsenal? Not in the top 3, what a load of bollocks.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------



Actually, the fans love having a balanced book which is why they're so supportive of Wenger when other clubs (Chelsea, ManU, etc.), if they were in the same financial situation (they're definitely not, but if they were for whatever reason, such as Abrahomivic leaving), would have canned him. The fans know they have a very talented young squad, a new stadium, and great finances. In other words, they have a great future. Most informed Arsenal fans know this, which is why they don't make these ridiculous claims.

You make the ManU comparison but Arsenal is NOT ManU. They're a selling club and a much smaller club. So don't make that comparison.

Your last paragraph is a load of ****. They're the second best team in England with the youngest squad in England...how on earth would they fall out of the top 4 next season? Tottenham is definitely rising but they're not as good as Arsenal and not as young. ManCity will take a couple of years before they settle down and finish above Arsenal (longer than people expect). If/when they don't finish in the top 4 this season, they'll can Mancini and who will replace him? Van Gaal would be a good choice, but if that doesn't pan out? Even if they do get Van Gaal, they have to start over with a new manager once again. They need some consistency and stability before they will be at Arsenal's level. The last time the two played showed the huge gap in between the two teams. It was a draw but ManCity got played off the pitch.



I've done enough talking though, I'm a neutral fan who shouldn't be speaking on behalf of Arsenal's supporters. What do you guys think?

I compare Arsenal too Manchester United because Arsenal are ment to be a massive club along with Machester United.

I'm afraid your arguement is flawed. Manchester City will spend money in the summer as it looks like UEFA Champions League football will be coming too them and believe me, money talks and this is why next season they will become stronger than Arsenal. Tottenham will also strenghen during the summer and under Harry, great things are possible. Arsenal under Arsene aren't going to spend big during the summer, it just isn't his style hense why next season, Citeh and Spurs will finish above Arsenal.

 

[Mike.]

not sure about spurs, they may be forced to sell a lot of players this summer, but city finishing above arsenal isnt a a crazy thought

 

[MisterStubbs]

not sure about spurs, they may be forced to sell a lot of players this summer, but city finishing above arsenal isnt a a crazy thought

agree what your saying with Spurs, they need too really focus on finishing top 4 and keeping their best players. also another team to watch out for next season will be Liverpool. with Suarez and Carroll leading the attack and surely more quality players to come in to Anfield, I wouldn't put it past Liverpool finishing top four next season under Kenny at Arsenals expense.

 

[curtis290]

not quite true abut the supporters though, i know a fair few of the older lot are getting very frustrated, nt saything their right, but it isnt just the glory hunters. They are not a selling club in that sense like many others are, but i know what you mean. But his own arrogance on the pitch (not financially, i largely back him on all points there) has cost them trophies with team selections, there's bringing through youth players, and theres gambling on the "lesser" cups. Criticism of him is unfair, but some of it does have a point

For me the youth/financial policies are synonmyous, because his youth policy has finances in mind...it's financially the best policy to find bargain young players and develop them and of course to sell your good players when they're older but still at a good value if the right offer comes in.

As far as your criticism about team selection goes, what exactly do you have in mind? What should he have done differently? They always have the worst luck with injuries, so it seems that his hands have been tied behind his back a lot of the time. The other thing about Wenger is he makes it a priority to play attractive football. Sometimes that means sacrificing results (how many teams have Arsenal played a team off the pitch but been unable to grab the three points), but it's another thing I really admire Wenger for. I think he's the only manager in the Prem in recent memory to do this. So Arsenal is facing an uphill battle, they want to stick to their principles and be financially sounds and play attractive football. Maybe this has cost them a trophy or two (domestic cups I'm thinking), but that's why I admire them so much. They stick to their guns. And when they do get that trophy, it's going to be so much sweeter.

Imagine if they somehow took the trophy this year...it would be one of the greatest moments ever for Arsenal supporters. If ManU wins the title, it really won't be that big a deal. They've won loads of titles and it won't be particularly memorable. And of course they're the biggest club in England and probably have the best team, so winning the title is to be expected. But if Arsenal wins, they've stuck to some **** good principles, jumped through a bunch of hoops and won the title in probably the best league in the world...it would be a great victory for them and for football in the world.

 

[Mike.]

im talking about when he plays full reserves and youth because hes not to bothered about the cup, and im talking the real kids here. even when other sides put out youth its its a capable side, you cannot be that blase if you are not guaranteed any other trophy

 

[DMuusers]

Maybe Wenger getting the boot in FM does make sense? I think that happened to the majority on all our games... Just sayin'

 

[curtis290]

I compare Arsenal too Manchester United because Arsenal are ment to be a massive club along with Machester United.

I'm afraid your arguement is flawed. Manchester City will spend money in the summer as it looks like UEFA Champions League football will be coming too them and believe me, money talks and this is why next season they will become stronger than Arsenal. Tottenham will also strenghen during the summer and under Harry, great things are possible. Arsenal under Arsene aren't going to spend big during the summer, it just isn't his style hense why next season, Citeh and Spurs will finish above Arsenal.

But that's the point I've been making the whole thread...Arsenal is NOT ManU. ManU is a much bigger club. More importantly, ManU is NOT a selling club. Arsenal is. ManU did not build a new stadium. And even if they did, they'd pay it off through a)their insanely large revenue stream, which is the biggest in the world, or b)putting themselves in loads of debt. That's not Arsenal. Therefore, Arsenal has a way different set of expectations than ManU. When Arsenal pays off the stadium and stops being a selling club, things will be different. Wenger knows this and that's why he's constantly building for the future. Arsenal has a great young squad and continue to churn out talent. When they get to hold onto this talent (and they will with this group, other than Fabregas, who will be replaced by Wilshere and will pay for several other great young players) they will be the best. Some day, their current crop of players will be hardened veterans like Giggs and Scholes are, who are great leaders that inspire the team to grind out results when things aren't going their way. That's not this season or maybe the next, but it'll happen some day.

As far as the others go, you have your opinion but there's no way Tottenham would finish above Arsenal. Arsenal is younger and much better and had way more injuries this season. Vermaelen and Van Persie are two of their three most important players and they were out for most of the season. As for ManCity, they just aren't their yet, and if they don't finish in the top 4 they'll have a new manager. They're not as good as Arsenal yet, it takes time to make a great team. And Chelsea? They're only getting older, and they need to build a new team. This takes time, and as has been obvious with Torres, they might not click right away. Liverpool? Even during this honeymoon with Kenny they definitely haven't been as consistent as Arsenal. Barring a massive injury crisis, I'd bet my life on Arsenal finishing in the top 4 next season, my job on them finishing in the top 3, a couple hundred dollars on them finishing in the top 2, and I think if they're healthy they'll win the title. Imagine if they had Vermaelen and Van Persie this year: they'd have done the double and maybe taken the FA Cup too.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

im talking about when he plays full reserves and youth because hes not to bothered about the cup, and im talking the real kids here. even when other sides put out youth its its a capable side, you cannot be that blase if you are not guaranteed any other trophy

Yeah it's a good point but I guess the fact that I totally support this shows our differences. He sacrifices unimportant domestic cups for the long-term future of the club (developing young players). This is a reason why they haven't gotten the odd FAC or CC over the past 7 years, but it's been good for Arsenal in the long-term. He clearly prioritizes the more important competitions. He could have sacrificed fighting the league or the CL so he could say that they've won a trophy during this 7 year period, but he doesn't because simple bragging points like trophies (which Scott thinks is the end-all-be-all measure of success) are less important than the future of the club. That's my .02.

But what do the Arsenal fans think?

 

[TheBeardOfZeus]

Bayern situation is completely different, though. They've been dominant for as long as I can remember in Germany & have been dreadful this year. Germany isn't as competitive as England, so you can't compare our situations.

Of course you can compare, because before last year Bayern didn't win anything, or the year before that. They aren't that dominant in Germany anymore, and neither are Arsenal as impressive as they were, perfectly decent comparison.

 

[markodragojevic]

For me the youth/financial policies are synonmyous, because his youth policy has finances in mind...it's financially the best policy to find bargain young players and develop them and of course to sell your good players when they're older but still at a good value if the right offer comes in.

As far as your criticism about team selection goes, what exactly do you have in mind? What should he have done differently? They always have the worst luck with injuries, so it seems that his hands have been tied behind his back a lot of the time. The other thing about Wenger is he makes it a priority to play attractive football. Sometimes that means sacrificing results (how many teams have Arsenal played a team off the pitch but been unable to grab the three points), but it's another thing I really admire Wenger for. I think he's the only manager in the Prem in recent memory to do this. So Arsenal is facing an uphill battle, they want to stick to their principles and be financially sounds and play attractive football. Maybe this has cost them a trophy or two (domestic cups I'm thinking), but that's why I admire them so much. They stick to their guns. And when they do get that trophy, it's going to be so much sweeter.

Imagine if they somehow took the trophy this year...it would be one of the greatest moments ever for Arsenal supporters. If ManU wins the title, it really won't be that big a deal. They've won loads of titles and it won't be particularly memorable. And of course they're the biggest club in England and probably have the best team, so winning the title is to be expected. But if Arsenal wins, they've stuck to some **** good principles, jumped through a bunch of hoops and won the title in probably the best league in the world...it would be a great victory for them and for football in the world.

What? Won't be a big deal? We would over take Liverpool how can that be nothing special :S:O

 

[curtis290]

Of course you can compare, because before last year Bayern didn't win anything, or the year before that. They aren't that dominant in Germany anymore, and neither are Arsenal as impressive as they were, perfectly decent comparison.

Horrible comparison. Bayern Munich is by far the biggest team in Germany, and they have unrealistic expectations every year. Arsenal is nowhere near as big as ManU. Also, Arsenal has far tougher financial constraints and the title race in the Prem is much more competitive (I mean, Dortmund running away with it? sure they're in form but Arsenal is certainly better than them). Lastly, the manager in Germany and Holland is much different than in England. In England, the managers have much more power. In Germany and Holland, it's about the technical director/the club as a whole. They go through their managers much more quickly. Lastly, Arsene built Arsenal. He is the sole reason they've been in 15 consecutive Champions Leagues (something Bayern cannot claim). Van Gaal didn't build Bayern. So no way Arsene would get kicked out.

What? Won't be a big deal? We would over take Liverpool how can that be nothing special :S:O

You're right, totally spaced out about that. But it's the milestone, not the trophy itself. My point was just that ManU league trophies are a dime a dozen. You've won them so many times it must not even be that great a feeling any more. It's the expectation that you win, and simply fulfilling an expectation is a good feeling, but it's only a fraction as good as exceeding it. Whereas if Arsenal won one, it would be absolute pandetmonium. The extreme example, of course, would be Tottenham or Bolton winning the league this year. Imagine how good that would feel

---------- Post added 11/04/2011 at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was 10/04/2011 at 02:38 PM ----------

And you're hardly netural TBF, you made it very clear in recent times for your preference of arsenal

I was just asking for the opinions of Arsenal fans rather than have a non-Arsenal support talk so much about the club and monopolize the thread. I'm not an Arsenal fan. If they changed philosophies I'd root against them like any other big team. I'm a neutral who would really like to see them do well because it would be very good for the sport and the Premiership. As far as trophies go, I would like to see them get one just to silence the constant criticism (they're probably criticized more than any club in England, which is shocking because of their consistent success), even if it's an unimportant one, like the FA Cup or CC. Heck, if I had to pick a favorite English team, it wouldn't be Arsenal, it probably would be Leeds. So in that sense I'm a neutral, even if I'm not a neutral in who I'd like to see win trophies at the moment.

 

[Redrup]

It isn't a disaster at all, a few people on this thread are just morons.

 

[Mike.]

Horrible comparison. Bayern Munich is by far the biggest team in Germany, and they have unrealistic expectations every year. Arsenal is nowhere near as big as ManU. Also, Arsenal has far tougher financial constraints and the title race in the Prem is much more competitive (I mean, Dortmund running away with it? sure they're in form but Arsenal is certainly better than them). Lastly, the manager in Germany and Holland is much different than in England. In England, the managers have much more power. In Germany and Holland, it's about the technical director/the club as a whole. They go through their managers much more quickly. Lastly, Arsene built Arsenal. He is the sole reason they've been in 15 consecutive Champions Leagues (something Bayern cannot claim). Van Gaal didn't build Bayern. So no way Arsene would get kicked out.



You're right, totally spaced out about that. But it's the milestone, not the trophy itself. My point was just that ManU league trophies are a dime a dozen. You've won them so many times it must not even be that great a feeling any more. It's the expectation that you win, and simply fulfilling an expectation is a good feeling, but it's only a fraction as good as exceeding it. Whereas if Arsenal won one, it would be absolute pandetmonium. The extreme example, of course, would be Tottenham or Bolton winning the league this year. Imagine how good that would feel

---------- Post added 11/04/2011 at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was 10/04/2011 at 02:38 PM ----------



I was just asking for the opinions of Arsenal fans rather than have a non-Arsenal support talk so much about the club and monopolize the thread. I'm not an Arsenal fan. If they changed philosophies I'd root against them like any other big team. I'm a neutral who would really like to see them do well because it would be very good for the sport and the Premiership. As far as trophies go, I would like to see them get one just to silence the constant criticism (they're probably criticized more than any club in England, which is shocking because of their consistent success), even if it's an unimportant one, like the FA Cup or CC. Heck, if I had to pick a favorite English team, it wouldn't be Arsenal, it probably would be Leeds. So in that sense I'm a neutral, even if I'm not a neutral in who I'd like to see win trophies at the moment.

ah ok now i get where you are coming from. As for the trophies bit you mention, this is where i was criticsing him earlier on in the thread, instead of giving something like the CC short shrift, if he had gone out to win one, something they are easily capable of, it would have decreased the pressure on him, its only in the last two season he's taken it more seriously.

But like i say, i largely back him on all financial points

 

[curtis290]

ah ok now i get where you are coming from. As for the trophies bit you mention, this is where i was criticsing him earlier on in the thread, instead of giving something like the CC short shrift, if he had gone out to win one, something they are easily capable of, it would have decreased the pressure on him, its only in the last two season he's taken it more seriously.

But like i say, i largely back him on all financial points

Yeah I agree with you 100%, but that's what I admire about Wenger. He doesn't give a **** about the criticism. He knows he could have won a CC or FA Cup over the past few years if he focused really hard on it (many teams worse than Arsenal have taken these trophies in the past 6 years), but he doesn't, he always prioritizes the Prem and CL because they're more important competitions. He would rather see Arsenal finish 2nd without a CC than finish 3rd with a CC (maybe that's an extreme example, but you see the point I'm getting that). I admire that. And TBH I think most of the criticism doesn't even come from his own fans, it's from the media and various haters who love to see Arsenal fail and talk about the lack of trophies (they seem to be a really hated club, at least that's my perception). I mean if you're not Chelsea or ManU, you can't really harp on Arsenal for a lack of good results, because other than those two clubs, they have been much, much more consistent than every other club in England over the past 6 seasons. I don't see what's wrong with being the 3rd most successful club in England, especially on that budget.

 

[ajt09]

There's 3 managers I truly admire in the prem. Moyes (for obvious reasons), SAF as he is basically an absolute genius, and Wenger. He may be stubborn, and sometimes may need the occassional eye test at Spec savers, but you simply cannot fault him for his financial ingenuity, and the way he has brought some players through the ranks. The way players like Ramsay, Wilshere have come through for example, is remarkable, and are showing tremondous potential. Yes, he has made some ****-ups which can drive Gooner fans up the wall, but in my opinion he has done a remarkable job at the club. They will get a trophy soon I think, and Arsenal would be worse off without him at the moment. Some of the stick he gets is a tad bit ott. And the prem would be worse off without someone like Wenger.