Why is it so difficult to make a solid 4-2-3-1???

[kentvieri]

I have tried different tactics on this forum and also made different on my own, but I don't seem to a solid and dominating 4-2-3-1 to work??

I do not think it seems as a formation that people prefer in Football Manager 17?

But when you play against Arsenal, Chelsea and United, they often use this formation.

 

[Bigpapa42]

A 4-2-3-1 can be a bit difficult because it separates the team. You have a back 6 and a front 4. Solidity, in a defensive sense, is a bit tougher because you have 4 forward players who won't do all that much in regard to defending, unless you are pressing aggressively from the front. With 4 players forward, it seems suited to attacking, yet 2 of your midfielders are deep and not necessarily helping out tons. It can certainly be made to work - any formation can - but it takes the right mix of mentality and roles to really tick.

 

[magicnut]

The real answer to the question is because of the engine rework of this new football manager , there were solid 4-2-3-1 tactics on 16...Nothing is particularly impressive or stable with that formation with the existing tactics (I tried some tactics like suk sam and pav 4-2-3-1) they were pretty average ...On some previous versions of the game 4-2-3-1 was a dominant formation that was fairly easy to work and was incredibly effective , now it seems it was simply nerfed with the new match engine..:O

What seems to be popular now are 5-3-2 with wingbacks and 4-3-1-2's.
IMO this new match engine is rediculous.

There are certain formations on this version of the game that simply dont work as good as they worked before..Wingers in general are not as effective as before and ridiculous formations with ridiculous roles work..
Strikerless formations , formations with 3 ball winning midfielders and a defensive forward etc..

 

[rocheyb]

Do your players suit the positions, roles and duties that you are asking them to play when you download these 4-2-3-1 formations? Or even in the versions that you make for yourselves, are a majority of your players doing what they are best at? Whether they are or not, you know that the Arsenal and Chelsea teams that you're coming up against have virtually every single player operating in their best positions.

 

[Kyanite]

What seems to be popular now are 5-3-2 with wingbacks and 4-3-1-2's.
IMO this new match engine is rediculous.

There are certain formations on this version of the game that simply dont work as good as they worked before..Wingers in general are not as effective as before and ridiculous formations with ridiculous roles work..
Strikerless formations , formations with 3 ball winning midfielders and a defensive forward etc..

Agreed, it seems like every year by trying to fix something that was OP in the previous year (e.g. last year wing backs and crosses were OP as ****) they end up completely breaking something else.
Now any sort of wide player seems irrelevant and most of the successful tactics seem to either consist of WM's who cut inside or are narrow formations.

This makes me really sad and makes me also wonder who the **** QAs stuff at SI.

 

[r1niceboy]

The gegenpress was brilliant for 3 games, then fell apart. I thought about trying a 4231 with two DMs, but my team has solid CMs and AML and AMC. Most of my conceded goals come from exposed FBs. I've dropped my FBs to DFBs, but the attack suffers as a result. Nothing solidly works. OIs might be the issue, but I can't get them to work either. My most successful formation is a 4-1-4-1 with a Targetman and two CMs that bomb forward. It's ugly as ****, as the Wms don't get forward much, but it's gotten Hearts 75 pts two seasons running.

 

[magicnut]

The gegenpress was brilliant for 3 games, then fell apart. I thought about trying a 4231 with two DMs, but my team has solid CMs and AML and AMC. Most of my conceded goals come from exposed FBs. I've dropped my FBs to DFBs, but the attack suffers as a result. Nothing solidly works. OIs might be the issue, but I can't get them to work either. My most successful formation is a 4-1-4-1 with a Targetman and two CMs that bomb forward. It's ugly as ****, as the Wms don't get forward much, but it's gotten Hearts 75 pts two seasons running.

Just stop using that formation for now and switch to something else...the problem in this football manager that striker (in any role pretty much) struggles to consistently get goals in a 4-2-3-1...some midfielders score more than the striker even..Also wingers or inside forwards often struggle as **** against opposition fullbacks , often top wingers like Yarmolenko or Draxler would receive 6.5 ratings and average fullbacks 7.3 , 7.4 etc...I will now try a save using 4-3-3 narrow (3 up front ) and 4-3-1-2 formations with Sheffield Wednesday and see if these formations are truly the way to go now..( im going to use zlatko vujevic 4-3-1-2 watford tactic)

 

[r1niceboy]

I've had no trouble scoring goals with a 4231, but it's conceding them that's been the issue. One season in Scotland I scored 93 goals, but conceded 74, with 60 points reached. In 38 games, that's preposterous. On contain, I was averaging 1.37 for, to 1.6 against. Defensive was 1.51 - 1.54. Individual instructions helped in certain games, but failed miserably in others. I was at a loss, and in the end went to the 4-1-4-1.

That formation has been consistently solid, although my wide players aren't suited to their roles and want to leave because of it.

 

[michelb86]

For me the problem is not scoring, the striker is doing great with 1:1. Problem is the lack of scoring by the rest and conceding, especially the midfielders. And sometimes I create 30 shots, sometimes 0. It's very inconsistent.

I made a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow tactic which is great, but I just love to play with wingers.

 

[WJ]

It isn't difficult, no. People on this forum are far too attacking with their 4231s though.

The "2" are supposed to be double pivot/holding midfielders. I should say - in general. It's the entire point of a 4231. Not B2B midfielders. Not BWMs.

The AMC is the most important to get right though. He has to link the attack and midfield.

 

[rocheyb]

It isn't difficult, no. People on this forum are far too attacking with their 4231s though.

The "2" are supposed to be double pivot/holding midfielders. I should say - in general. It's the entire point of a 4231. Not B2B midfielders. Not BWMs.

The AMC is the most important to get right though. He has to link the attack and midfield.

"Amen" to that. Teams that play 4-2-3-1 generally have Inside Forwards in the wide attacking roles with the width being provided by the full backs. Counter attacks - or 1st wave attacks - will utilise the pace of the IF by playing balls into the channels beyond the opposition defence. 2nd wave attacks come about during periods of possessional dominance when you try to work space on the flanks for the full back to make his overlapping runs and whip in the crosses with at least your striker and the opposite IF in the box - sometimes also the near side IF, too, with the AM around the edge of the box.

So the two central midfielders are there to provide cover when the full backs go forward and to distribute the ball into those wide areas to bring all four wide players into the game, and to engage the opposition when they attempt to counter. If they are good at throughballs - or Try Killer Balls Often - they can also feed the striker directly, or you can just have them play shorter passes to the more creative No.10 (who, in that case, would need to drop deep to collect the ball).

I'd say if you want both full backs on Attack duty, your central midfielders should probably be DMs. If you have one attacking full back and one on Support duty, then try having them as M(C)s but one of them in a defensive role.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Great analysis, rocheyb. And agree with WJ.

Formations are neutral, but they do have individual strengths and weaknesses. The two DMs in front of a back 4 provide a sound defensive base. If you are just trying to have one or both DMs move forward, its removing that stability to some degree. And as I mentioned, you have four players in the AM/ST strata, which doesn't naturally lend to them helping defensively. The FBs are going to be key to linking the back six with the front four since you have no one in the MC strata. It is really also going to help if one of your two DMs is capable of being a DLP type with a good passing range.

World class sides are capable of using this formation effectively in part because they have world class players. Not saying you need that, but it sure helps. To have great fullbacks who are quick, can help out in attack, but still do defensive work. DMs with great passing range. Wingers and AMs who are pure attackers but will actually work defensively as well. Complete forwards who also work hard.

 

[rocheyb]

My FM is not loaded up at the moment, but there are four berths across the AM line, aren't there? Same as everywhere else, I think. I liked the Asymmetric 4-5-1 in FM11 and I wonder whether an asymmetric version of 4-2-3-1 might help to get the right balance:

GK_Defend
RB_Support
CD_Stopper
CD_Defend
LB_Attack
DM_Defend in the DM line, left of centre (ideally left-footed)
DLP_Support in the M(C) line, right of centre
W(R)_Attack
AP_Attack in the AM line, left of centre
W(L)_Support
CF_Support

The key is to understand the crucial relationships within the team and how those two or three players link together; which players should be looking to play one-twos? Who should be crossing the ball... and where from and where to? Who's going to be on the end of those crosses? When we counter, who is running where and how (and how quickly) are we getting the ball to the furthest man forward? Who and where are his options?... etc, etc. When you decide the answers to these questions (by watching real teams play live and on TV, and by watching FM matches on the Comprehensive View), you can use the PPMs and the Individual Player Instructions to get them to do what you want. My currently injury-hit Blackpool in League Two, still in FM16, might not be the most fertile testing ground but I might bear it in mind and see whether I can get some joy out of it when I have some better players.

To any decent FMer who also holds a season ticket at the club of your choice, I recommend sitting high in the stand where you can see all of the off-the-ball movement. A lot of my FM tactical thinking is based on the Southampton side of Lambert, Lallana, Schneiderlin and Shaw that I used to watch, four rows from the back of the Kingsland Stand at St. Mary's.